Emory vs W&M vs Minnesota vs Iowa Forum

[JackMarcel]

3.7/166
URM and ~30 years old
Masters in Mathematics and Masters in Economics

MN (full-tuition)
Iowa (COA < $5,000 for all 3 years)
W&M (COA ~$10,000 for all 3 years)
Emory (COA ~$35,000 for all 3 years)

I would like big law, corporate, transactional - not too concerned with geographic location. Eventually I'd enjoy working inside counsel and/or with a venture capital firm, after good big law experience under my belt.

This is my first post on TLS, so I apologize for any faux pas. I'll be happy to provide more info if helpful. I look forward to hearing your thoughts!

Thank you in advance.
JM

[239840]

Those are some surprisingly disappointing options for an URM with your stats and goals. I'd say Iowa if you're committed to starting this fall, but perhaps retake if the 166 is something upon which you think you could improve.

[sparkytrainer]

Also none of these options are even considerable if you want biglaw

[Mr. Archer]

You need to consider geographic location. Iowa and Minnesota don't make sense for you. I would say never go there. You would need to plan on working in those states. W&M and Emory give you a little bit more mobility, but not the same as a T14. Given your stats and URM status, you should have gotten into some better schools with money. If you can retake and get your LSAT up, that would be good. But you could also think about just waiting and reapplying at the very beginning of next cycle.

[JackMarcel]

Thank you for your responses thus far. I applied late in the cycle because I was unaware of how early things got started: My first application was submitted on mid to late January. I work full time, so I continued sending out applications when I had time up until last week.

I have not heard back from most schools. My only other response so far has come from USC Gould (one of the first schools I applied to) – I unfortunately was waitlisted there.

[floatie]

I'm a 1L at Emory so obviously a bit biased here, but I would strongly consider Emory, given your particular goals. Atlanta, while still a "secondary" market to some, is growing quickly and provides numerous opportunities for Emory students to get involved in corporate/transactional work quickly. This includes everything from externship opportunities at Home Depot, Coca-Cola, or Delta (all of which are headquartered here), to Emory's Transactional Certificate program, or Emory's IP program TI:GER (which pairs you up with students at GA Tech so you can patent and bring a product to market). The other schools on your list are great, as well - but given their particular locations, I don't know how much practical experience you could get as a law student in transactional/corporate work.

It's definitely worth a trip out to Emory's Visiting Day (which is amazing and was hands down the best visiting day program I went to) so that you can talk to people who are involved in transactional/corporate work and get a sense of the types of opportunities that are available in transactional law. Also, feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

[JackMarcel]

Those are some surprisingly disappointing options for an URM with your stats and goals. I'd say Iowa if you're committed to starting this fall, but perhaps retake if the 166 is something upon which you think you could improve.

Thank you for your response. Could you please elaborate on why you would lean toward Iowa over the others?

Also, would you mind sharing what schools you believe someone with my stats and background should in theory have access to? I'm pretty new to this process.

Thank you!

[JackMarcel]

You need to consider geographic location. Iowa and Minnesota don't make sense for you. I would say never go there. You would need to plan on working in those states. W&M and Emory give you a little bit more mobility, but not the same as a T14. Given your stats and URM status, you should have gotten into some better schools with money. If you can retake and get your LSAT up, that would be good. But you could also think about just waiting and reapplying at the very beginning of next cycle.

Thank you for your answer.

How much of a difference does it make to apply very early in the cycle? I made the mistake of going by the deadline dates, not realizing how early the cycle got started.

Also, I am concerned about letting go of the good options I have right now in favor of potentially better ones, at the risk of ending up empty-handed. For instance, what if I apply very early on next cycle, including Emory and W&M as my safe schools. Wouldn't Emory and W&M be inclined to not offer me as much money because they know I will likely turn them down, since I already did once? In that case, if a top school does not accept me with $$$, I would be in a poorer situation than I am now, no?

Again, I am very new to this, so any insight helps. Thank you!

[JackMarcel]

By the way, below is my latest option pool with the total estimated COA for the 3 years. I did not have much of an idea of how well I'd place and of how important rank was, so I applied all over the board:

Minnesota, University Of -------------- $0
Northeastern University -------------- $0
Iowa, University Of -------------- $5,000
William And Mary Law School -------------- $15,000
Arizona State University -------------- $25,000
Emory University -------------- $35,000
California-Hastings, University Of -------------- $60,000
Ohio State University -------------- $75,000
George Washington University -------------- $80,000

Any insight would be appreciated. Thank you.

[deadpanic]

What kind of URM? I tend to agree with this assessment below. It could be that you applied late. For your goals, none of those are very good options.

Those are some surprisingly disappointing options for an URM with your stats and goals. I'd say Iowa if you're committed to starting this fall, but perhaps retake if the 166 is something upon which you think you could improve.

[239840]

Those are some surprisingly disappointing options for an URM with your stats and goals. I'd say Iowa if you're committed to starting this fall, but perhaps retake if the 166 is something upon which you think you could improve.

Thank you for your response. Could you please elaborate on why you would lean toward Iowa over the others?

Also, would you mind sharing what schools you believe someone with my stats and background should in theory have access to? I'm pretty new to this process.

Thank you!

Iowa was formerly higher ranked than Minnesota, but in the recently leaked 2019 rankings, Minnesota climbed its way into the top 20. So out of your current options, UMN seems like your best bet. My point was that for someone wanting Big Law, your current options don't seem great, because you would probably need to be in the top 15-30% of your class at any of them to have a solid shot at Big Law. At a T14, Big Law is a much more realistic outcome, and wouldn't depend so much on your being one of the top students in your law school class.

What's strange is that an URM with your stats (and I'm assuming you're not AA as I'd imagine you would've said as much in your OP if you were) would seem to be a competitive applicant to schools like Cornell, Vanderbilt, and WUSTL. With a few more points on the LSAT schools like Berkeley, Northwestern, Michigan, etc. would likely come into play, but I'm not sure if you want to retake. However, even with your current stats, if you were to apply early next cycle you might get into some higher-ranked schools.

[JackMarcel]

What kind of URM? I tend to agree with this assessment below. It could be that you applied late. For your goals, none of those are very good options.

Those are some surprisingly disappointing options for an URM with your stats and goals. I'd say Iowa if you're committed to starting this fall, but perhaps retake if the 166 is something upon which you think you could improve.

Thank you for your reply. Hispanic/Latino, born in South America – college and grad school in the US, US citizen.

Do you also tend to agree with Iowa being my best choice so far? If so, could you please elaborate on that point?

[JackMarcel]

Iowa was formerly higher ranked than Minnesota, but in the recently leaked 2019 rankings, Minnesota climbed its way into the top 20. So out of your current options, UMN seems like your best bet. My point was that for someone wanting Big Law, your current options don't seem great, because you would probably need to be in the top 15-30% of your class at any of them to have a solid shot at Big Law. At a T14, Big Law is a much more realistic outcome, and wouldn't depend so much on your being one of the top students in your law school class.

What's strange is that an URM with your stats (and I'm assuming you're not AA as I'd imagine you would've said as much in your OP if you were) would seem to be a competitive applicant to schools like Cornell, Vanderbilt, and WUSTL. With a few more points on the LSAT schools like Berkeley, Northwestern, Michigan, etc. would likely come into play, but I'm not sure if you want to retake. However, even with your current stats, if you were to apply early next cycle you might get into some higher-ranked schools.

So it sounds like US News is a ranking you rely on broadly when it comes to Big Law? Thank you for your insight regarding the likelihood of fulfilling my goals at my current-level schools vs T14.

You are correct in that I am not AA - I expanded on my URM background on a recent post.

Regarding reapplying next cycle, does it really seem to make much of a difference whether one applies very early in the cycle vs. Jan-Feb? Intuitively, it seems like the answer might be yes, but I was wondering if anyone here might have some empirical/anecdotal evidence to make an argument one way or the other.

Regarding a retake, I just worry about being yet a year older. If I was ~24, I would certainly retake. But being a little older, time is much more of a factor for me.

[Mr. Archer]

You need to consider geographic location. Iowa and Minnesota don't make sense for you. I would say never go there. You would need to plan on working in those states. W&M and Emory give you a little bit more mobility, but not the same as a T14. Given your stats and URM status, you should have gotten into some better schools with money. If you can retake and get your LSAT up, that would be good. But you could also think about just waiting and reapplying at the very beginning of next cycle.

Thank you for your answer.

How much of a difference does it make to apply very early in the cycle? I made the mistake of going by the deadline dates, not realizing how early the cycle got started.

Also, I am concerned about letting go of the good options I have right now in favor of potentially better ones, at the risk of ending up empty-handed. For instance, what if I apply very early on next cycle, including Emory and W&M as my safe schools. Wouldn't Emory and W&M be inclined to not offer me as much money because they know I will likely turn them down, since I already did once? In that case, if a top school does not accept me with $$$, I would be in a poorer situation than I am now, no?

Again, I am very new to this, so any insight helps. Thank you!

If you end up waiting, then just apply as soon as possible in the cycle and see what happens. By the time you applied, schools had already given out a lot of scholarship money, and you most likely missed out on on scholarship applications. There is a risk of reapplying. I don't think not attending necessarily means a school would just give you less though. I think you honestly need to research schools more and think about what you want. Look at job statistics, including where most graduates work and how many get biglaw jobs. You said you didn't care about geographic location, but you just need to be aware of potentially getting locked into a certain area based on school. You also can't just assume you'll be able to get a biglaw job even at a good school (although the odds are higher at better schools even with lower grades).

[lovethelakesMN]

Hey, I'm a 1L at University of Minnesota Law and wanted to share a couple thoughts. First, congrats on the full tuition scholarship to UMN! That's awesome.

I actually chose UMN Law over a few higher ranked schools, including "T14" options. I have a full tuition scholarship here, and had basically no scholarship at the other places I was considering, but that was only one part of why I ended up here. A big reason I chose UMN Law is because I got the impression that this school values improving itself. And I think that impression was validated by UMN being back in the top 20 as of the recent rankings! I am also a little bit older (26), and I was also torn about retaking the LSAT and reapplying in hopes of getting more scholarship $$ at other schools, but decided to go for it and am really happy with my decision.

I think UMN has strong programs and opportunities no matter what you're interested in - so if you want to end up in "Big Law" you'll have a lot of resources through professors who have worked and are still working at big law firms and through a super well-connected career center. But there are also awesome opportunities in human rights, immigration, etc. There is a big off-campus interview program with big firms in NYC, DC, Chicago, San Francisco, and other places based on student interest. There is also an on-campus interview program with all the biggest firms in the Twin Cities. The legal market in Minneapolis is also growing right now - for example, Jones Day just opened an office in Minneapolis in 2016 and a few other firms have moved in recently too. If you wanted to, you could be at a networking event at a firm downtown pretty much every day of the week (although obviously no one actually does that). My 2L and 3L friends have internships and post-graduation jobs at big firms in Minnesota and around the country.

Good luck with your decision!

[sparkytrainer]

Hey, I'm a 1L at University of Minnesota Law and wanted to share a couple thoughts. First, congrats on the full tuition scholarship to UMN! That's awesome.

I actually chose UMN Law over a few higher ranked schools, including "T14" options. I have a full tuition scholarship here, and had basically no scholarship at the other places I was considering, but that was only one part of why I ended up here. A big reason I chose UMN Law is because I got the impression that this school values improving itself. And I think that impression was validated by UMN being back in the top 20 as of the recent rankings! I am also a little bit older (26), and I was also torn about retaking the LSAT and reapplying in hopes of getting more scholarship $$ at other schools, but decided to go for it and am really happy with my decision.

I think UMN has strong programs and opportunities no matter what you're interested in - so if you want to end up in "Big Law" you'll have a lot of resources through professors who have worked and are still working at big law firms and through a super well-connected career center. But there are also awesome opportunities in human rights, immigration, etc. There is a big off-campus interview program with big firms in NYC, DC, Chicago, San Francisco, and other places based on student interest. There is also an on-campus interview program with all the biggest firms in the Twin Cities. The legal market in Minneapolis is also growing right now - for example, Jones Day just opened an office in Minneapolis in 2016 and a few other firms have moved in recently too. If you wanted to, you could be at a networking event at a firm downtown pretty much every day of the week (although obviously no one actually does that). My 2L and 3L friends have internships and post-graduation jobs at big firms in Minnesota and around the country.

Good luck with your decision!

Will your self-serving is nice, the data is clear: 6.5% of UMN grads get biglaw. Another 5% or so fed clerkships. So a UMN grad has only a 10% chance or so at biglaw. Your story is nice, but you are a 1L and totally unhelpful. Provide OP with the actual facts. Fact is, UMN is a good school for free if you want to practice in Minnesota. Otherwise, it is not a good choice. 61% of the UMN grads who get legal jobs work in Minnesota. The next highest percentage of UMN grads who work outside of Minnesota- only 5% made it to DC, and 4.6% to Chicago. That represents literally 2-3 people each. Facts are facts.

https://www.lstreports.com/schools/minnesota/jobs/
https://www.lstreports.com/schools/minn ... /location/

[minnbills]

Agree that for your goals you should hold out for a higher ranked school.

That said, UMN is the best school on your list and given that it's 100% scholly, you should matriculate there if you choose to go to law school this fall. Though Iowa was recently ranked higher than UMN, the job prospects are much better at UMN because Iowa has no home market to feed into.

Also, when you say biglaw do you mean major market biglaw like NYC or Chi? Or do you mean that you want to go into private practice at a larger firm? As a URM at UMN you would have a pretty strong shot at snagging a 1L SA in Minneapolis or maybe Chicago.

Also, FWIW, my girlfriend turned down Harvard et al for a 100% scholly to UMN and now works at a V5. It's risky to take that path but the upside is pretty huge.

(One last point re the above post, most UMN students choose to stay in MN. It's really a self-selection issue as far as placement in other markets is concerned. The job market is dicey coming out of minnesota but having graduated a few years ago, I would say that just about everyone I know is doing what they want to do at this point.)

[beinghuman]

I agree.

I think the MN 1L above is giving you an unrealistic depiction of opportunities at Minnesota law.
I would say though that if you really want to go this fall, MN would be your best choice provided you are alright with potentially staying in MN/midwest. But if you really want Big Law, you should reapply and aim for T13.

Agree that for your goals you should hold out for a higher ranked school.

That said, UMN is the best school on your list and given that it's 100% scholly, you should matriculate there if you choose to go to law school this fall. Though Iowa was recently ranked higher than UMN, the job prospects are much better at UMN because Iowa has no home market to feed into.

Also, when you say biglaw do you mean major market biglaw like NYC or Chi? Or do you mean that you want to go into private practice at a larger firm? As a URM at UMN you would have a pretty strong shot at snagging a 1L SA in Minneapolis or maybe Chicago.

Also, FWIW, my girlfriend turned down Harvard et al for a 100% scholly to UMN and now works at a V5. It's risky to take that path but the upside is pretty huge.

(One last point re the above post, most UMN students choose to stay in MN. It's really a self-selection issue as far as placement in other markets is concerned. The job market is dicey coming out of minnesota but having graduated a few years ago, I would say that just about everyone I know is doing what they want to do at this point.)