COAP vs. LIPP vs. SLS LRAP - An analysis Forum

[jetsfan1]

Hello TLS,

I've noticed there is a lot of discussion about the merits of Yale's COAP program, Harvard's LIPP, and SLS' LRAP, but there is relatively little comparative analysis on their relative strengths/weaknesses. My hope is that this post bridges that gap to a certain extent and provides for a more in depth discussion about the three.

A couple things before I start:

1) I am a 0L, and thus have no experience repaying loans through these programs. Would LOVE to have input from graduates here if possible. That's half the point of this thread.
2) I do not mean for this comparison to be definitive. I may have misunderstood something during my research or forgot an important aspect of a program. I do not pretend to be an expert here and am only offering my best interpretation. Please correct me if I am wrong on anything. I would be VERY surprised if there aren't details in here that I am off on.
3) I've only looked at YHS here for personal reasons (can PM me if interested). If someone wants to apply this analysis to other LRAP programs I would love to see it.
4) These are not ordered by importance - just randomly.
5) Sources are almost entirely from the following sites. For more complete info, please read them:

Yale: https://www.law.yale.edu/system/files/a ... iption.pdf
https://www.law.yale.edu/system/files/a ... Oct_14.pdf

Stanford: http://media.law.stanford.edu/calculato ... 0Terms.pdf

Harvard: http://hls.harvard.edu/dept/sfs/lipp/lipp-policies/
http://hls.harvard.edu/dept/sfs/basics- ... o-to-lipp/

Ok here we go...

Jobs that are Eligible

YLS: Entirely income based. Job need not be legal based.
HLS: All nonprofit, government, or academic jobs are eligible, whether in the legal field or not. For private practice, must be a legal job to be eligible.
SLS: Must be PI legal jobs

Analysis: Y > H > S here. I think the importance of this factor really depends on what you want to do. I've worked in policy and while I am 95% I want to be in a JD required job, I could definitely see myself transitioning back into the policy world 5-8 years out. So for me, this is a huge leg up for Y/H.

Repayment Schedule

YLS: First 5 years on a 15 year plan. Second 5 on a 5 year plan.
HLS: 10 year plan.
SLS: Believe it is the same as Harvard, but did not see this stated explicitly.

Analysis: Not entirely sure here, but would imagine HS > Y here. If you were to leave the program after 4 years, lets say, you would have a good chunk more paid off from H/S than Y.

Moving in and out of the Program

YLS: Can move in and out of program freely, but eligibility ends after 10 years.
HLS: Eligible as long as you are still repaying loans.
SLS: Can move in and out freely BUT must be in within 5 years of graduation. Eligibility ends after 10 years.

Analysis: H > Y > S. Would be rare that this would apply, but if you were on a 20 year repayment plan and worked 10 years in a non-LRAP job and than moved to one that was eligible, you could still use Harvard's LIPP (assuming assets were not to high). Hard to imagine a situation where this would happen, so this is a minor concern. Y > S because can enter in year 6. Again, very minor.
Note: Would love someone to double-check this. I may be misinterpreting H here.

Undergrad Loans

YLS: Up to $30,000 eligible.
HLS: Up to $30,000 eligible.
SLS: Not eligible.

Analysis: Y/H > S. Potentially huge for those with UG loans.

Your Contribution

YLS:
Salary less than $50,000 = $0
$50,000 - $65,000 = 15% of income over $50,000
$65,000 - $80,000 = $2,250 + 30% of income over $65,000
$80,000 and above = $6,750 + 60% of income over $80,000

HLS:
Less than $46,000 = $0
$46,000 - $52,000 = 20% of income over $46,000
$52,000 and above = $1,200 + 40% of income above $52,000

SLS:
Less than $50,000 = $0
$50,000 - $65,000 = 15% of income over $50,000
$65,000 - $80,000 = $2,250 + 50% of income over $50,000
$80,000 and above = $9,750 + 70% of income over $80,000

Analysis: Y > S > H. You end up paying less from H vs. S right below $90,000. End up paying less from H than Y just below $110,000. HOWEVER it is important to note that each school calculates your yearly gross income slightly differently. We will look at that a bit more below.

Marriage

Gross Income (assuming no kids and not taking into account any other factors) will be calculated as:

YLS: Your income + Spouse's - $40,000 - Amount spouse must pay in loans that year
HLS: Whichever is higher - 1) Your income OR 2) Average of both incomes. Then subtract what your spouse is paying in loans that year
SLS: Same as HLS

Analysis: This really depends on your spouse/situation, but to me I would say in general H/S > Y. If your spouse is making more than $40,000, Y will be more expensive. But I mean, calling all forever alones, does this really matter?
Note: These differ a bit if both partners are in the program. Chose not to go into that here, but if someone wants to be my guest.

Kiddos

YLS: $8,000 credit per dependent + up to $17,000 credit in child care (stay at home spouse gets credit for full $17,000)
HLS: $6,000 credit for first kid + $3,600 for each additional + "reasonable" child care expenses (this was very vague - they gave no exact number, but does not include educational fees)
SLS: $8,000 credit per dependent

Analysis Y > S > H, though the vague child care expenses at H could maybe put it above S? Doubt they would do more than Y's 17k, so they still aren't beating Y here.

Bar Loans

YLS: $10,000 eligible but loan must be taken out before graduation
HLS: $10,000 eligible
SLS: $8,500 eligible

Analysis: Not too important but I guess H > Y > S if you need more than $8,500 and assuming you have the wherewithal to take the loan out before graduating. No idea what bar expenses are though, so if normally below $8,500 this point is mute...

Parental Leave

YLS: 6 months per child with full benefits.
HLS: Up to 6 months with full benefits IF employer approved. If you then leave your job no longer eligible and must repay any assistance receiving $ during that time.
SLS: Same as HLS but if not approved by employer can get forbearance and remain in the program without receiving any benefits. (You start getting them again once back at work). Can be like this for 24 total months of the 10 year program.

Analysis: Y > S > H. Maybe I'm missing something with H, but it seems sort of harsh.

Part-Time Work

YLS: Need at least 20 hrs/week to be eligible. Income adjusted up as if full time though. (i.e. $20,000 salary at 20 hrs/wk calculated as $40,000)
HLS: Not eligible unless you go part time to care for a child.
SLS: Same as YLS.

Analysis: Y/S > H. Minor point.

Unemployment

YLS: 3 months/year with full benefits.
HLS: Get 8 weeks between jobs over entire 10 years. Need forbearance otherwise.
SLS: Need forbearance and then can stay in program without receiving funds.

Analysis: Y > H > S.

Clerkships

YLS: Loan of up to $10,000 a year. If you then go to a non-COAP position, must repay loan plus 7.5% interest within a year. If next job is COAP eligible, loan added to debt and paid off under COAP after a year.
HLS: Loan as well (no interest rate given on website - regardless these change for Y/S I'd bet as well). If next job is LIPP eligible, works like Y. But if not, must repay the loan within the next year PLUS $250/10% of principle, whichever is higher.
SLS: Loan at 6.8%, and you can take one out for 2 years of clerking. Repayment works like Y.

Analysis: Y/S > H. I guess slightly less on interest at S makes it best here? Also, if you intend to go to a LRAP job after clerkship, H essentially same here.

Assets

YLS: $6,000 base plus $6,000 more for each year in the program sheltered. In addition, retirement accounts and fixed property assets (house/car) are sheltered as well. Anything over this threshold is added to gross annual income.
HLS: Bit complicated here. $10,000 base + $8,000 for each year in the program + $8,000 for each year worked before LS are sheltered. However, only 50% of retirement $ are protected, and fixed property assets seem to be counted as well. For your first year in the program, 100% of assets added to gross annual, but that goes down by 10% for each year in the program.
SLS: Anything over $130,000 counted.

Analysis: Because of the complexity of H's program, I'm having trouble differentiating it from Y - it is completely dependent on the individual situation. However, I am going Y > H > S because fixed property/retirement assets are completely sheltered there. S might sound good in principle, but it makes it really difficult to save. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your 401(k) would be fully counted as an asset there.

Seniority Adjustment

YLS: None.
HLS: Starting after completing the 5th year in the program, you subtract $5,000 from your gross annual, then $6,000 the next year and so on.
SLS: Same as H, but the benefits start after the first year with $1,000 and so on.

Analysis: S > H > Y. Nice bonus here from S.

re: Seniority adjustment, I know the Yale makes the case that years 6-10 have what is effectively a seniority adjustment. You still have 2/3rds of your debt and you'll be paying it off on a 5 year plan, thus requiring much higher payments and giving you room for higher incomes that would still garner COAP payments.

Joint Degrees

YLS: COAP covers 3 years of the joint degree.
HLS: $30,000 of undergraduate debt can be used instead to cover the joint degree.
SLS: Nothing I could find.

Analysis: H > Y > S. Although I'm not really sure how joint degree tuition payments work, so could be off here between Y and S.

BOTTOM LINE

When I look at all these together, it seems that in general Y > H > S, though that could easily change depending on what you value. For instance, the ability to potentially take a policy job 6 years out from H is worth the extra couple thousand I would pay per year there over S. Others might have a different - and perfectly legitimate - analysis of this.

However, I think the versatility of Y, lower yearly payments, undergrad debt eligibility, kids/leave/unemployment/part-time, and especially the way they calculate assets makes Y the clear winner here in almost any situation. Maybe if you are married and your spouse makes bank this changes a bit (but then you wouldn't be eligible for LRAP loans going into LS anyway at any of these schools). For H vs. S., I think having undergrad debt/going for a joint degree makes H much more attractive, though you would (likely) be paying less after from S. That being said, the ex-factor/unknown here is asset valuation.

Anyway, I know for most people this is TL:DR, but I hope for those who it interests this was helpful. I wrote this out as much for me as anyone, and like I said at the top I likely made a few errors, so please correct anything that is off! Thanks all.

[pigzorz]

re: Seniority adjustment, I know the Yale makes the case that years 6-10 have what is effectively a seniority adjustment. You still have 2/3rds of your debt and you'll be paying it off on a 5 year plan, thus requiring much higher payments and giving you room for higher incomes that would still garner COAP payments.

[jetsfan1]

re: Seniority adjustment, I know the Yale makes the case that years 6-10 have what is effectively a seniority adjustment. You still have 2/3rds of your debt and you'll be paying it off on a 5 year plan, thus requiring much higher payments and giving you room for higher incomes that would still garner COAP payments.

Good point. Adding this to the OP...

[Ensalada]

This is so amazingly helpful, thank you for doing this

[jetsfan1]

This is so amazingly helpful, thank you for doing this

Hoped it would be - couldn't find anything like it elsewhere on TLS

[packer_22]

Woah! Amazing stuff dude.

Any chance you'd do another one with CCN?

[jetsfan1]

Woah! Amazing stuff dude.

Any chance you'd do another one with CCN?

No promises, but if I find the time I'll try! (Although to be honest I'm pretty swamped right now so if I do get around to it it won't be for a while. Though if someone else wants to take it on would be highly interested in the results!)

[abl]

I graduated from law school several years ago and have had some experience with one of these programs. I'd encourage you to not miss the forest for the trees. A number of these factors might matter immensely, but to a small subset of students. The differences in what jobs are eligible, for example, only impact a small handful of students each year. That said, if you're looking at HYS and are interested in doing non-legal policy work, COAP will apply 100% while SLS's LRAP will apply 0%. That's a difference that significantly dwarfs any of the others that you mention. But it's also a difference that's entirely irrelevant to most students who may potentially make use of these programs. I'd encourage you to separate differences like this out from the rest of your analysis.

In my opinion, the most important differences are as follows:

*Your contribution. A huge percentage of folks on these programs make between $46,000-~$90,000 (or whatever phase-out ends up being) for much of their repayment period. I agree with your assessment, but think that the difference is more like Y > S >> H. Reasonably few folks on one of these programs will both have loads of loans and be making in that $90k-$110k (which is the scenario in which H starts to equalize).

*Seniority adjustment. This essentially factors into "your contribution." I'm betting that most people on these programs eventually get into the "phase out" (>$46k or $>50k) portion of the repayment programs and a notable percentage start in that range. Even at S, the seniority adjustment obviously isn't earth-shattering, but an extra $150 or $500 or $700/year over 10 years (depending on your income) could really add up. I suspect that in practice this actually makes Stanford's program more generous than Yale's for most students.

*Repayment schedule. A surprising number of folks seem to leave the programs before the ten years are up. Yale structures its program to reward folks who don't (which is a clever approach to providing an incentive to longer public service while saving the school money). But if you're someone who leaves after 5 or 6 years, that's probably a noticeable bonus to S or H.

*Marriage. You may not be married now or have any prospects, but I think the vast majority of folks on these programs get married during their time covered by the program.

*Clerkships. Lots of PI folks clerk, especially at YS, where 30-40% of the class clerks after graduating. Ironically, I suppose, if you end up at H the fact that H is not as generous re clerking isn't super important because you're also substantially less likely to clerk.

Taking these factors into account, I actually think that for most students, the programs end up sorting out more like S > Y > H. That said, if you're one of the ~5-10 students each year who are interested in low-paying non-legal jobs, or in going fairly quickly to academia, I think the ranking is more like Y > H >> S. I think Stanford's approach to eligibility is a really huge weakness that, although irrelevant for most folks choosing between these schools, easily outweighs whatever other minor differences there are for those few students to who it will apply.

FWIW, I don't think the bar loans bit should be a factor ($8,500 is WAY more than enough), nor should parental leave (except potentially for students who are pretty sure they're going to not return to work 6 mo. after having kids), part-time work, unemployment, assets (unless you already have a ton or are expecting to come into some big inheritance), undergrad debt (unless you have it, obviously), or joint degrees (unless, of course, you're pretty sure you'll do one, in which case you should ask about).

[abl]

I also want to add that these differences are all pretty small. Unless you're pretty sure you want to pursue a job that is covered by Yale's program and not Stanford's, for example, I don't think any of these differences are really big enough to serve as more than a tiebreaker somewhat akin to a coin flip between any of these schools. There are so many bigger and more important differences between these schools, that I think you'd be making a big mistake choosing Stanford over Yale because the seniority adjustment is likely to result in you pocketing an extra $500/year for the ten years you're in the program. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that someone feeling really stuck between Harvard and Yale and considering using this to make their decision should instead look hard for another factor--say, whether you prefer Cambridge or New Haven--because relatively minor things like that will probably matter more than whether you're supposed to be contributing 60% or 70% of your income over $80,000 towards loans.

[jetsfan1]

I graduated from law school several years ago and have had some experience with one of these programs. I'd encourage you to not miss the forest for the trees. A number of these factors might matter immensely, but to a small subset of students. The differences in what jobs are eligible, for example, only impact a small handful of students each year. That said, if you're looking at HYS and are interested in doing non-legal policy work, COAP will apply 100% while SLS's LRAP will apply 0%. That's a difference that significantly dwarfs any of the others that you mention. But it's also a difference that's entirely irrelevant to most students who may potentially make use of these programs. I'd encourage you to separate differences like this out from the rest of your analysis.

In my opinion, the most important differences are as follows:

*Your contribution. A huge percentage of folks on these programs make between $46,000-~$90,000 (or whatever phase-out ends up being) for much of their repayment period. I agree with your assessment, but think that the difference is more like Y > S >> H. Reasonably few folks on one of these programs will both have loads of loans and be making in that $90k-$110k (which is the scenario in which H starts to equalize).

*Seniority adjustment. This essentially factors into "your contribution." I'm betting that most people on these programs eventually get into the "phase out" (>$46k or $>50k) portion of the repayment programs and a notable percentage start in that range. Even at S, the seniority adjustment obviously isn't earth-shattering, but an extra $150 or $500 or $700/year over 10 years (depending on your income) could really add up. I suspect that in practice this actually makes Stanford's program more generous than Yale's for most students.

*Repayment schedule. A surprising number of folks seem to leave the programs before the ten years are up. Yale structures its program to reward folks who don't (which is a clever approach to providing an incentive to longer public service while saving the school money). But if you're someone who leaves after 5 or 6 years, that's probably a noticeable bonus to S or H.

*Marriage. You may not be married now or have any prospects, but I think the vast majority of folks on these programs get married during their time covered by the program.

*Clerkships. Lots of PI folks clerk, especially at YS, where 30-40% of the class clerks after graduating. Ironically, I suppose, if you end up at H the fact that H is not as generous re clerking isn't super important because you're also substantially less likely to clerk.

Taking these factors into account, I actually think that for most students, the programs end up sorting out more like S > Y > H. That said, if you're one of the ~5-10 students each year who are interested in low-paying non-legal jobs, or in going fairly quickly to academia, I think the ranking is more like Y > H >> S. I think Stanford's approach to eligibility is a really huge weakness that, although irrelevant for most folks choosing between these schools, easily outweighs whatever other minor differences there are for those few students to who it will apply.

FWIW, I don't think the bar loans bit should be a factor ($8,500 is WAY more than enough), nor should parental leave (except potentially for students who are pretty sure they're going to not return to work 6 mo. after having kids), part-time work, unemployment, assets (unless you already have a ton or are expecting to come into some big inheritance), undergrad debt (unless you have it, obviously), or joint degrees (unless, of course, you're pretty sure you'll do one, in which case you should ask about).

This is great. Thank you so much.

I guess for me on a personal level, I don't necessarily want to eventually transition into policy. But (and maybe I'm off here) I don't really think any 0L can say with 100% confidence that they will love practicing the law. So the H/Y "out" so to speak matters. Sure, I'm 99% sure I want to practice - wouldn't be applying to LS if I wasn't - but the ability to change careers down the road is nice to have and I think sort of underrated.

[abl]

I guess for me on a personal level, I don't necessarily want to eventually transition into policy. But (and maybe I'm off here) I don't really think any 0L can say with 100% confidence that they will love practicing the law. So the H/Y "out" so to speak matters. Sure, I'm 99% sure I want to practice - wouldn't be applying to LS if I wasn't - but the ability to change careers down the road is nice to have and I think sort of underrated.

I actually do think a lot of people in the PI community are pretty sure they want to stay in law. For people going to law school to be public defenders, immigration attorneys, etc, I do think it's a pretty safe bet. That said, I agree with you: COAP's coverage flexibility is a really big bonus for people, like you, who are seriously contemplating other possibilities as well. I don't understand why Stanford (and to a lesser extent Harvard) doesn't follow suit. I really don't think we're talking more more than a couple of people each year, and these schools all have the budget to cover it. I suspect there are some unfortunate feelings in the public interest community about what really "counts" as public interest that could be motivating this divide. Or, it may be that Yale's program is just pretty purely about making Yale affordable, full stop, whereas Harvard and Stanford's are about encouraging students to take jobs that serve the public good (with Harvard defining public good more broadly than Stanford).

[gnomgnomuch]

Does this apply to grad school debt? A huge concern of mine of going into LS is that I want to pay of about 80% of my grad school debt before I go to LS. I'm on the cusp GPA wise for HYS - I'll prob strike out, but if I get in, I'm almost certainly going - and if grad debt is absorbed it makes going sooner rather than later realistic.

[abl]

Does this apply to grad school debt? A huge concern of mine of going into LS is that I want to pay of about 80% of my grad school debt before I go to LS. I'm on the cusp GPA wise for HYS - I'll prob strike out, but if I get in, I'm almost certainly going - and if grad debt is absorbed it makes going sooner rather than later realistic.

My advice is to call and ask. Most finaid departments won't ask for your name (and if they do, asking this doesn't reflect negatively on you).

[gnomgnomuch]

Does this apply to grad school debt? A huge concern of mine of going into LS is that I want to pay of about 80% of my grad school debt before I go to LS. I'm on the cusp GPA wise for HYS - I'll prob strike out, but if I get in, I'm almost certainly going - and if grad debt is absorbed it makes going sooner rather than later realistic.

My advice is to call and ask. Most finaid departments won't ask for your name (and if they do, asking this doesn't reflect negatively on you).

Will def do, thanks!

[Indifference]

Does this apply to grad school debt? A huge concern of mine of going into LS is that I want to pay of about 80% of my grad school debt before I go to LS. I'm on the cusp GPA wise for HYS - I'll prob strike out, but if I get in, I'm almost certainly going - and if grad debt is absorbed it makes going sooner rather than later realistic.

Can only speak to LIPP, but:

Up to $30,000 of combined undergraduate debt and debt incurred while pursuing a joint degree with another Harvard graduate school is also eligible for LIPP coverage. LIPP assistance is not available for loans from family and friends, for personal loans from banks or other sources, or for other graduate school debt.

[gnomgnomuch]

Does this apply to grad school debt? A huge concern of mine of going into LS is that I want to pay of about 80% of my grad school debt before I go to LS. I'm on the cusp GPA wise for HYS - I'll prob strike out, but if I get in, I'm almost certainly going - and if grad debt is absorbed it makes going sooner rather than later realistic.

Can only speak to LIPP, but:

Up to $30,000 of combined undergraduate debt and debt incurred while pursuing a joint degree with another Harvard graduate school is also eligible for LIPP coverage. LIPP assistance is not available for loans from family and friends, for personal loans from banks or other sources, or for other graduate school debt.

Dang. And of the three, H is my most realistic shot.

[Indifference]

.

[gnomgnomuch]

Does this apply to grad school debt? A huge concern of mine of going into LS is that I want to pay of about 80% of my grad school debt before I go to LS. I'm on the cusp GPA wise for HYS - I'll prob strike out, but if I get in, I'm almost certainly going - and if grad debt is absorbed it makes going sooner rather than later realistic.

Can only speak to LIPP, but:

Up to $30,000 of combined undergraduate debt and debt incurred while pursuing a joint degree with another Harvard graduate school is also eligible for LIPP coverage. LIPP assistance is not available for loans from family and friends, for personal loans from banks or other sources, or for other graduate school debt.

Dang. And of the three, H is my most realistic shot.

If you want it that badly, you can defer. H is OK with deferrals.

Well, I'm still in graduate school, I haven't taken the LSAT and my chances at HYS aren't that high to begin with because my GPA is a 3.77 - so I'd need a 175 or so on the LSAT to have a legit shot - and I'm planning on working for a few years before I apply so the point is really moot at this point. But, it's good to know that deferring is a possibility. Thanks!