thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help! Forum

[zettsscores40]

Jesus Christ, is it that hard to understand that what you actually do in your career might matter some more than where you went to school?

Where you went to school is probably more important, at least in this industry.

Depends on what you want to do. If your goal out of LS is a NLJ 250 job, then yeah you need to be coming from a good school. After your first job, it's what's you produce, unless you're going for super elite firms, etc.

[uvatwol]

If (when) you do reapply, do a little more thinking about the range of schools--the net you cast was widener than it needed to be, by about 170 rank spots.

I think this piece of genius got lost in the shuffle here. hilarious

+1, I thought that was pretty funny, but then got caught up in Dick Wolf's BS.

You both have what it takes to make great lawyers. In my ohso humble opinion. Please come to UVA(!)

[Lawguru]

He is not an idiot. I'll take it further, schools below the T12 are not worth attending, even with a full scholarship, unless you plan to live and practice in that area forever.

fixed

now stop cluttering the market you inferior prospectives

Seriously, does your mom help you tie your shoes in the morning, cause you're retarded.


Don't listen to this bullshit- If you can get into a Tier 1 school go. Past that your job prospects begin to get a bit shady for your first job. Do you seriously believe 5 to 10 years of work experience will not give you the flexibility to move to a different location?

Yes because all people that don't go to T14 are less intelligent than those who do. What a load of shit. You're a douche to the Nth degree, not to mention what is wrong with TLS. Hell, what is wrong with the world.

[ihateusnews]

Go to Cooley; it's T12 but they give good financial aid.

[Aloha4]

It's never worth attending anything tier 3 or 4...but it does raise my self esteem when i meet these sods...or any sod who isn't T10 I'll pretend T6 doesn't exist though

I guarantee that you were a loser in high school.

I guarantee that he still is

[PoliticalJunkie]

Schools below the T14 aren't worth it to attend generally, even with a full scholarship, unless you plan to live and practice in that area forever, or have other circumstances. Rankings matter little once you've dropped so low, and region becomes important

You're an idiot.

Agreed. 1) aren't worth attending? give me a break. 2) forever? I know bunch of tier 2/3 and 4 students who work out of the area they went to school in. Obviously not representative, but forever is extreme.

I agree that rankings don't matter out of the top 50. Then again, if you're looking at Tier 2/3/4 schools, you don't care for rankings...

[vanwinkle]

Schools below the T14 aren't worth it to attend generally, even with a full scholarship, unless you plan to live and practice in that area forever, or have other circumstances. Rankings matter little once you've dropped so low, and region becomes important.

I don't get why people are hating on this comment so much. I actually agree with it.

If he had said that non-T14s aren't worth it at all then it'd be appropriate to hate on him, but he's right. Once you drop down below T14, schools very rapidly become regional in focus and the degree you have becomes a lot less portable. He's not saying don't go to a non-T14, he's saying don't go to a non-T14 in a region you wouldn't want to live and work in afterward, because the work you're able to get with your degree will most likely be inside that region, which (at least ITE) is TRUE.

[Aloha4]

Schools below the T14 aren't worth it to attend generally, even with a full scholarship, unless you plan to live and practice in that area forever, or have other circumstances. Rankings matter little once you've dropped so low, and region becomes important

You're an idiot.

Agreed. 1) aren't worth attending? give me a break. 2) forever? I know bunch of tier 2/3 and 4 students who work out of the area they went to school in. Obviously not representative, but forever is extreme.

I agree that rankings don't matter out of the top 50. Then again, if you're looking at Tier 2/3/4 schools, you don't care for rankings...

Disagree to a certain degree. Obviously you take the higher ranked school, but location is pretty important too. For example, if there is a school in Texas ranked in the top 10, but you only want to work in the northeast and your only option is villanova or temple, you can take villanova or temple if its cheaper and you dont want to spend 3 years of your life in texas. Sure its harder, but if you finish at the top of your class at nova or temple, you'll get a good job. I have a friend that graduated from rutgers, and immediately got a job at a top 100 law firm making 120k a year. I have friends that went to harvard that are now bagging groceries.

[vanwinkle]

What are your numbers? People can't give you real advice without numbers.

[Aloha4]

Schools below the T14 aren't worth it to attend generally, even with a full scholarship, unless you plan to live and practice in that area forever, or have other circumstances. Rankings matter little once you've dropped so low, and region becomes important.

I don't get why people are hating on this comment so much. I actually agree with it.

If he had said that non-T14s aren't worth it at all then it'd be appropriate to hate on him, but he's right. Once you drop down below T14, schools very rapidly become regional in focus and the degree you have becomes a lot less portable. He's not saying don't go to a non-T14, he's saying don't go to a non-T14 in a region you wouldn't want to live and work in afterward, because the work you're able to get with your degree will most likely be inside that region, which (at least ITE) is TRUE.

I think you are right. I think he just phrased it poorly which is why it rubbed some people the wrong way.

[Aloha4]

What are your numbers? People can't give you real advice without numbers.

If you don't want to post them publically you can share them with me. I'll keep them to myself and I have a reputation on this board for helping people make the right decision, so if you want some actual worthwhile answers, you can PM your numbers to me and I'll give you some more solid advice.

If it helps any I'm attending a T14 right now and know what it's like because with my terribly low GPA I was sure I wasn't going to get anywhere near as good as here.

I think the guy already made his decision lol. He started this thread over a year ago.

[vanwinkle]

What are your numbers? People can't give you real advice without numbers.

If you don't want to post them publically you can share them with me. I'll keep them to myself and I have a reputation on this board for helping people make the right decision, so if you want some actual worthwhile answers, you can PM your numbers to me and I'll give you some more solid advice.

If it helps any I'm attending a T14 right now and know what it's like because with my terribly low GPA I was sure I wasn't going to get anywhere near as good as here.

I think the guy already made his decision lol. He started this thread over a year ago.

Haha, I just now noticed that. That's hilarious. Oh well. I hope he chose wisely!

[nycparalegal]

Schools below the T14 aren't worth it to attend generally, even with a full scholarship, unless you plan to live and practice in that area forever, or have other circumstances. Rankings matter little once you've dropped so low, and region becomes important.

But if you get a full scholarship to attend a state school with a low COL then I think it could be worth it depending on what the person wants to do after law school.

[Aloha4]

What are your numbers? People can't give you real advice without numbers.

If you don't want to post them publically you can share them with me. I'll keep them to myself and I have a reputation on this board for helping people make the right decision, so if you want some actual worthwhile answers, you can PM your numbers to me and I'll give you some more solid advice.

If it helps any I'm attending a T14 right now and know what it's like because with my terribly low GPA I was sure I wasn't going to get anywhere near as good as here.

I think the guy already made his decision lol. He started this thread over a year ago.

Haha, I just now noticed that. That's hilarious. Oh well. I hope he chose wisely!

I'm sure I'll post one of these threads once I hear back. And I'm sure it'll be pretty similar.

[dresden doll]

Schools below the T14 aren't worth it to attend generally, even with a full scholarship, unless you plan to live and practice in that area forever, or have other circumstances. Rankings matter little once you've dropped so low, and region becomes important.

But if you get a full scholarship to attend a state school with a low COL then I think it could be worth it depending on what the person wants to do after law school.

That's not really incompatible with what he said.

[Mroberts3]

Because Cravath is just itching to get all the laterals from SmallLaw that couldn't make the cut the first time around?

It's hardly Cravath or out.

Yes, if you miss the biglaw cut-off, biglaw is probably out for good, but $60k starting plus low debt is hardly failure at life.

Your contention that non-T14s aren't worth full ride is silly. Even if you're highly risk-averse, anything down to USC is at least worth sticker (unless you think you can't even place 2/3!). With some $$, the whole T50 is worth going to.

You seem to think that most law students have rosy prospects outside of the law with their UG degree. It's some major "grass is greener" mentality. If you have an Ivy degree or a practical major, you might be looking at $50k+ with just your UG. If you don't, then it's more like $30k. At that point, a $60k starting salary + little debt has gotta look pretty good.

You certainly are right about it being a case of difference of expectations and outlook on life. You consider $60k starting plus low debt as at least not failing, but if I am going to invest $150,000 in debt plus a similiar forgone amount in income from the three years spent in law school, I think I am fully justified in expecting a job paying deep in to the $100s starting.

I guess I don't get it. I am about a year out of undergrad with one of those "practical majors" making closer to 60 than to 30 and I certainly don't feel like I've succeeded. Why would I want to go to law school and end up in the same position I am now? That's a massive waste of time and money.

What is the assumption here (esp bolded part)?

The assumption is that practicing law is simply a means to the end of acquiring money. Hard to believe, but some (I hope many) of us want to practice law because it is a fulfilling career and there is important work to be done. Biglaw or bust has to be the most destructive mentality on this board. It's not all about money! And, like others said, not everyone is making 50k right after graduation, so the opportunity cost varies significantly.

I agree that at some point down the ranking ladder one has to realistically weight the debt vs. job prospects. However, there is simply no way that the T14 could even come close to filling all legal jobs in the country. Tier 1 is tier ONE for a reason.

[Great Satchmo]

You certainly are right about it being a case of difference of expectations and outlook on life. You consider $60k starting plus low debt as at least not failing, but if I am going to invest $150,000 in debt plus a similiar forgone amount in income from the three years spent in law school, I think I am fully justified in expecting a job paying deep in to the $100s starting.

I guess I don't get it. I am about a year out of undergrad with one of those "practical majors" making closer to 60 than to 30 and I certainly don't feel like I've succeeded. Why would I want to go to law school and end up in the same position I am now? That's a massive waste of time and money.

This is not meant to be a touchy-feely reply, but more so a mature reflection:

Success isn't defined by the salary you make your first year out of school. If you are motivated by level of compensation, drop law and go to medical school and pick a specialty that pays highly.


Surely making a solid living is a goal for most, if not all. However, if you don't derive happiness or meaning from where you spend 10 hours a day, 5-6 days a week...no matter how much you make, you won't be a success.

[somewhatwayward]

You certainly are right about it being a case of difference of expectations and outlook on life. You consider $60k starting plus low debt as at least not failing, but if I am going to invest $150,000 in debt plus a similiar forgone amount in income from the three years spent in law school, I think I am fully justified in expecting a job paying deep in to the $100s starting.

I guess I don't get it. I am about a year out of undergrad with one of those "practical majors" making closer to 60 than to 30 and I certainly don't feel like I've succeeded. Why would I want to go to law school and end up in the same position I am now? That's a massive waste of time and money.

i know this thread is really old, but i'm still wondering.......what are you doing on this board if you have decided that going to law school is a massive waste of time and money?....just hanging around to antagonize people?

[Aloha4]

You certainly are right about it being a case of difference of expectations and outlook on life. You consider $60k starting plus low debt as at least not failing, but if I am going to invest $150,000 in debt plus a similiar forgone amount in income from the three years spent in law school, I think I am fully justified in expecting a job paying deep in to the $100s starting.

I guess I don't get it. I am about a year out of undergrad with one of those "practical majors" making closer to 60 than to 30 and I certainly don't feel like I've succeeded. Why would I want to go to law school and end up in the same position I am now? That's a massive waste of time and money.

This is not meant to be a touchy-feely reply, but more so a mature reflection:

Success isn't defined by the salary you make your first year out of school. If you are motivated by level of compensation, drop law and go to medical school and pick a specialty that pays highly.


Surely making a solid living is a goal for most, if not all. However, if you don't derive happiness or meaning from where you spend 10 hours a day, 5-6 days a week...no matter how much you make, you won't be a success.

Agree that success should be derived from something else in addition to money. Disagree with the Med School point. Med School is much more competetive and cuthroat than law school is ( Except maybe 1L). To make it through med school or any grad school really, you have to have a passion about the subject, or you need to become passionate while in school.

I personally think money is pretty important, and would strive for big law, but you are correct that it isn't big law or busy at all. I mean yes it does suck in a way to be making only 60k when you come out since you could have made that before law school. But you can gain valuable experience and eventually open a practice which can be very lucrative.

[Aloha4]

You certainly are right about it being a case of difference of expectations and outlook on life. You consider $60k starting plus low debt as at least not failing, but if I am going to invest $150,000 in debt plus a similiar forgone amount in income from the three years spent in law school, I think I am fully justified in expecting a job paying deep in to the $100s starting.

I guess I don't get it. I am about a year out of undergrad with one of those "practical majors" making closer to 60 than to 30 and I certainly don't feel like I've succeeded. Why would I want to go to law school and end up in the same position I am now? That's a massive waste of time and money.

i know this thread is really old, but i'm still wondering.......what are you doing on this board if you have decided that going to law school is a massive waste of time and money?....just hanging around to antagonize people?

hes an "internet alpha male"

[Great Satchmo]

You certainly are right about it being a case of difference of expectations and outlook on life. You consider $60k starting plus low debt as at least not failing, but if I am going to invest $150,000 in debt plus a similiar forgone amount in income from the three years spent in law school, I think I am fully justified in expecting a job paying deep in to the $100s starting.

I guess I don't get it. I am about a year out of undergrad with one of those "practical majors" making closer to 60 than to 30 and I certainly don't feel like I've succeeded. Why would I want to go to law school and end up in the same position I am now? That's a massive waste of time and money.

This is not meant to be a touchy-feely reply, but more so a mature reflection:

Success isn't defined by the salary you make your first year out of school. If you are motivated by level of compensation, drop law and go to medical school and pick a specialty that pays highly.


Surely making a solid living is a goal for most, if not all. However, if you don't derive happiness or meaning from where you spend 10 hours a day, 5-6 days a week...no matter how much you make, you won't be a success.

Agree that success should be derived from something else in addition to money. Disagree with the Med School point. Med School is much more competetive and cuthroat than law school is ( Except maybe 1L). To make it through med school or any grad school really, you have to have a passion about the subject, or you need to become passionate while in school.

I personally think money is pretty important, and would strive for big law, but you are correct that it isn't big law or busy at all. I mean yes it does suck in a way to be making only 60k when you come out since you could have made that before law school. But you can gain valuable experience and eventually open a practice which can be very lucrative.

It's so easy to focus on first year salary with schools trying to show it off and the debt accumulated in school being so central and in the forefront of life considerations.

However, if you start at $60k a year, but end up closer to $100k within 3-5 years of working, it's likely not something you would be able to do with just the UG degree (assuming). Earning POTENTIAL is going to be higher, in most cases, having a JD than just a BA/BS.

Trust me, I believe money is important. I definitely want to make as much as possible. However, I've worked jobs that I can't stand, and there is no amount of money worth hating waking up knowing you have to go to a job you abhor. Especially considering what I hear about the highly paying, and competitive law jobs, regarding the massive amount of time you will spend in the office.

I'm not some altruist and I don't wear rose-colored glasses. Money matters. However, it seems there is a contingent of posters here whose interest in law school seems to be purely salary-driven. If it works out, good for them, but for the majority of us (with souls), what we actually do matters.

[Flanker1067]

So much fighting about jobs and schools. I really really wish schools provided accurate employment data and that we had it for this year, so everyone could stop speculating based on hearsay and we could determine whether t20 or t14 or any of our demarcations make sense. Unfortunately this is a dream that won't come true, but fuck, it would be nice.

[Nicholasnickynic]

You certainly are right about it being a case of difference of expectations and outlook on life. You consider $60k starting plus low debt as at least not failing, but if I am going to invest $150,000 in debt plus a similiar forgone amount in income from the three years spent in law school, I think I am fully justified in expecting a job paying deep in to the $100s starting.

I guess I don't get it. I am about a year out of undergrad with one of those "practical majors" making closer to 60 than to 30 and I certainly don't feel like I've succeeded. Why would I want to go to law school and end up in the same position I am now? That's a massive waste of time and money.

Of course I'm right about it being a matter of expectations. The usefulness of an investment is proportional to not just the expected benefit, but to available alternatives. My point is that for most law students, the alternative is not a $60k+ job with room for growth. 85% of most law students majored in something that doesn't involve math. Unless they went to an Ivy or graduated with a 4.0, their prospects are far closer to the $30k figure than the $60k one. Going to a strong Tier1, graduating with less than $90k in debt, and getting a $60k job is a perfectly sensible thing to do.

There is also something to be said about there being more to life than money. I made more than your median lawyer before I even got my BS. Law school will be a huge opportunity cost, but I'll consider myself successful if I just even make par with what my salary would've been if I had just stayed at my job. Because, frankly, I'd rather be a lawyer than an engineer, even if it is going to cost me almost $200k to make the transition.

Truth. 3.3 gpa history major from small liberal arts college. NO job prospects what so ever. For me, 60k in debt(CoL being paid by wife) for a chance at making 60k with LOTS of job growth is amazing prospects. In fact I think its about the best investment I make. And oh yeah, sounds like fun =)

[dresden doll]

You certainly are right about it being a case of difference of expectations and outlook on life. You consider $60k starting plus low debt as at least not failing, but if I am going to invest $150,000 in debt plus a similiar forgone amount in income from the three years spent in law school, I think I am fully justified in expecting a job paying deep in to the $100s starting.

I guess I don't get it. I am about a year out of undergrad with one of those "practical majors" making closer to 60 than to 30 and I certainly don't feel like I've succeeded. Why would I want to go to law school and end up in the same position I am now? That's a massive waste of time and money.

i know this thread is really old, but i'm still wondering.......what are you doing on this board if you have decided that going to law school is a massive waste of time and money?....just hanging around to antagonize people?

Would you be asking the same question if he stuck around to recommend law school to us all?

TLS is a pleasurable waste of time for some, myself included (and, yes, I am in law school - but that's not really why I keep coming back to this board).

[lawschooliseasy]

Law & Order is a good poster and I agree with his comment. Its either T14 or its not T14. The 36th ranked school has little in common with the T10, but much in common with a school ranked 78 or 85 or 110 for that matter. Thinking otherwise is borderline retarded.

That said, you can attend a low ranked school and have a great career, but its hard as hell. I worked 18 hour days while in school, half in school half for a firm developing a relationship and showing them I'm worth the investment. As a result I had a great gig waiting upon graduation.. About 5 other kids in my TTT grad class had similar situations.. 2 or 3 got good OCI placements and about 5 or 6 more had straight up good connections from family members. Another 8 to 10 got shit-ass clerkships that will translate into nothing and maybe 1 or 2 got clerkships that are worth the year commitment. Everyone else is doing GARBAGE work at shit ass firms or straight up unemployed.

There were apx 185 kids in my graduating class... Of that number, based on above, (which is sadly very accurate), there are about 15 kids not thinking of killing themself at this point.. 15 out of 185, or aproximately 8%... Those are your chances of being succesful after attending a lower ranked school.. 92% chance of utter failure, 4 to 1 debt to income ratio and handling plaintiff's personal injury law with non-english speaking clients does not sound like a good time to me.

OP.. If you have a T14 wait list.. Start working up other avenues other than Widner.. Attending Widner when you are a T14 caliber student is absolutely insane.

Lol. You're in the TTT and consequently think there's no difference between T25 and T80-100? Do you really think that someone graduating from WashU/Notre Dame has the same prospects as someone graduating from Drake or another TTT? You're borderline retarded.