California Bar Moral Character Application Forum

[InterAlia1961]

The new system does not display correct information. Mine says I was denied and no appeal was filed. The appeal was filed months ago. We're almost to the hearing. It takes at least six months for the investigation to be complete.

While I appreciate the often helpful information in this thread about how the process works, I had to register after reading it to flag one thing for you guys - you realize that it's highly likely that people at the California Bar read or have read this thread? It's a public forum and anyone can come here. Some people in here are posting information that would make them easily identifiable and are also posting sometimes in a tone that isn't what you'd expect of someone appearing before the State Bar in this context.

I appreciate your concern, but being close to a hearing doesn't identify me. The State Bar is denying admission at a record levels. It's so bad they're hiring more judges and moral character investigators just to keep up. There are dozens of hearings every month for MC appeals alone.

This is public forum. Posting here is not the equivalent to appearing before the State Bar. Of course the tone is harsh at times. Why would you expect anything different? If you really want tone, Google "Go f*ck yourself state bar of California." It pulls up an intense article by one pissed-off applicant who can't seem to pass the exam. We all have our issues.

They may be perusing forums like these, but probably not on a regular basis. While they may be able to identify someone by piecing together details from posts on this forum, it's unlikely they'd go through the trouble. To prove it would require a subpoena to the forum's owners, and the state bar doesn't have that power. Their time would be better spent making sure their new system works correctly. Seriously.

[anon1245325]

I appreciate your concern, but being close to a hearing doesn't identify me. The State Bar is denying admission at a record levels. It's so bad they're hiring more judges and moral character investigators just to keep up. There are dozens of hearings every month for MC appeals alone.

This is public forum. Posting here is not the equivalent to appearing before the State Bar. Of course the tone is harsh at times. Why would you expect anything different? If you really want tone, Google "Go f*ck yourself state bar of California." It pulls up an intense article by one pissed-off applicant who can't seem to pass the exam. We all have our issues.

They may be perusing forums like these, but probably not on a regular basis. While they may be able to identify someone by piecing together details from posts on this forum, it's unlikely they'd go through the trouble. To prove it would require a subpoena to the forum's owners, and the state bar doesn't have that power. Their time would be better spent making sure their new system works correctly. Seriously.

I mean it's not my issue and what's done is done - but I think you're whistling past the graveyard. At every job I've ever been at people search the name of the employer and watch what people are saying about them online. We also gossiped about it internally a LOT. This thread came up in multiple Google searches when I was trying to figure out the process and frankly I'd be amazed if they don't read every post. If you're on here saying "I have (x) prior convictions/arrests, this happened, the state bar told me (y), I have a hearing in 2 weeks, it's in this city" - they know who you are. They don't need a subpoena to figure it out. You're not the only one I saw doing it. I'm just saying that part of their decision and task is to decide whether people can act professionally, whether they can be respectful of authority, whether they are being sincere in their interviews and hearings, etc. People should keep that in mind when they're posting here.

[InterAlia1961]

I appreciate your concern, but being close to a hearing doesn't identify me. The State Bar is denying admission at a record levels. It's so bad they're hiring more judges and moral character investigators just to keep up. There are dozens of hearings every month for MC appeals alone.

This is public forum. Posting here is not the equivalent to appearing before the State Bar. Of course the tone is harsh at times. Why would you expect anything different? If you really want tone, Google "Go f*ck yourself state bar of California." It pulls up an intense article by one pissed-off applicant who can't seem to pass the exam. We all have our issues.

They may be perusing forums like these, but probably not on a regular basis. While they may be able to identify someone by piecing together details from posts on this forum, it's unlikely they'd go through the trouble. To prove it would require a subpoena to the forum's owners, and the state bar doesn't have that power. Their time would be better spent making sure their new system works correctly. Seriously.

I mean it's not my issue and what's done is done - but I think you're whistling past the graveyard. At every job I've ever been at people search the name of the employer and watch what people are saying about them online. We also gossiped about it internally a LOT. This thread came up in multiple Google searches when I was trying to figure out the process and frankly I'd be amazed if they don't read every post. If you're on here saying "I have (x) prior convictions/arrests, this happened, the state bar told me (y), I have a hearing in 2 weeks, it's in this city" - they know who you are. They don't need a subpoena to figure it out. You're not the only one I saw doing it. I'm just saying that part of their decision and task is to decide whether people can act professionally, whether they can be respectful of authority, whether they are being sincere in their interviews and hearings, etc. People should keep that in mind when they're posting here.

They may suspect who you are, but they know nothing. They don't focus on one particular forum. Like you, they do a search, using key words. Like I said, there are dozens and dozens of hearings in both LA and SF every month. The bar is busy. If they're just sitting around Googling themselves, that would explain their some of their failures. And let's presume you're correct, that in the basement of the bar's headquarters in LA and SF, some half-baked millennial is monitoring this forum, so what? Who are they monitoring it for? No one here uses their name. If you do a Google search, or any other search for that matter on me, you'll find exactly what I want you to find. This forum doesn't come up at all.

The state bar tells everyone (y). As you continue you're search, you'll see the pattern. It's the same across the board. No only are they denying people at a record level, they're disbarring people at a record pace as well....except Michael Avennatti. The geniuses cleared him of any client fraud and everything else in November. Then the feds charged him for exactly the things the State Bar said he didn't do. What a joke. They have zero credibility, and you admit as much. If they can't deny you for legitimate reasons, they'll dig on the internet until they find something. Not justice, dude. Not fair. The question is whether you're morally fit to practice law. Not whether you complain about the bar's conduct.

[anon1245325]

They may suspect who you are, but they know nothing. They don't focus on one particular forum. Like you, they do a search, using key words. Like I said, there are dozens and dozens of hearings in both LA and SF every month. The bar is busy. If they're just sitting around Googling themselves, that would explain their some of their failures. And let's presume you're correct, that in the basement of the bar's headquarters in LA and SF, some half-baked millennial is monitoring this forum, so what? Who are they monitoring it for? No one here uses their name. If you do a Google search, or any other search for that matter on me, you'll find exactly what I want you to find. This forum doesn't come up at all.

The state bar tells everyone (y). As you continue you're search, you'll see the pattern. It's the same across the board. No only are they denying people at a record level, they're disbarring people at a record pace as well....except Michael Avennatti. The geniuses cleared him of any client fraud and everything else in November. Then the feds charged him for exactly the things the State Bar said he didn't do. What a joke. They have zero credibility, and you admit as much. If they can't deny you for legitimate reasons, they'll dig on the internet until they find something. Not justice, dude. Not fair. The question is whether you're morally fit to practice law. Not whether you complain about the bar's conduct.

Like I said what's done is done in your case. It either happened or it didn't. Really I'm posting to warn other people. If they want to believe both (a) that the bar will aggressively dig on the internet until they find something on people to try to keep them out and (b) that also they don't pay attention to this forum and totally ignore it when a guy is giving all the details of his arrest records and issues with the police and issues with the state bar itself, then fine. If you think people aren't going to gossip about something like that when it's directed at their office and that there were lots of other people with the same exact fact patterns in their prior history as you going to hearings on the same day, fine. But I'm saying I think it's a senseless risk to take and that if I were trying to convince the bar that I no longer had issues with authority figures and that my arrests and issues with the police were in my past, I wouldn't be posting like that and I wouldn't be posting my info online. There's a tone that's appropriate for criticism in this context and this isn't it.

[rcharter1978]

This is an interesting point, I'm not sure if the same harried and busy analyst or whatever who approved my application is the same person who handles the file when it's going to go for a hearing

If it's the same person, IMO they probably don't have the time to really do an in depth search to try to read forum tea leaves. And while it's all public, it seems like they could easily presume they know who a person is and get it wrong.

If the case gets escalated to someone who has more time, then that person may be able to do a little more sleuthing. But, there really seems to be a good chance to assume that you know who a person is and get it wrong, and it doesn't seem like the investigator would rely on information that could be wrong to make such a life changing decision.

As for the tone? This is a message board about people's thoughts and a place to express them. Just because you think potentially shitty and unprofessional thoughts doesn't mean that you won't follow the rules and behave like a professional, so that would kinda suck.

[bacillusanthracis]

I need to vent. I haven't slept for the past 3 nights much. Sometimes I can push it away and not think about it, but then there's times like this where it becomes all consuming. I apologize in advance.

They've been sitting on my app for nearly two years now.

God, I wish I would've just gotten my masters and become an English teacher.

I recently received a phone call from an attorney I'd interviewed with that he couldn't hire me because he couldn't be sure when or even if my app would be approved. Not for an office job, not for research. Nada. This is the third time this has happened since I passed the bar exam. The stink of this thing flows off me into the nostrils of potential hiring lawyers. I've pretty much stayed away from applying to law firms, but this... I got sick of not being involved in the legal field.

This is it for me. If this doesn't happen... I can't recover from this. I'm not 26 years old with my life still ahead of me. I chose law as a second career. It's way too late to start anything else, and I can't go back unless I wholly abandon the entire notion of being an attorney.

I've lost my confidence. I work 3 different shit jobs just to keep from being homeless. God, I fucked up by going to law school. Five years gone and I gave up so much to do this.

My crime/issues? They're located earlier in the thread (one DUI 7 years ago, a couple of non-moral turpitude civil suits that are now a decade old).

This is insane.

In no other line of work can such decisions be made with such arbitrariness and so little oversight. It feels so abusive.

Good god, to pass the hardest bar exam in the country and be completely in the negative for all the effort it took. I'm too old to say that this isn't how things are supposed work, but goddammit, this isn't how things are supposed to work.

[QContinuum]

Good god, to pass the hardest bar exam in the country and be completely in the negative for all the effort it took. I'm too old to say that this isn't how things are supposed work, but goddammit, this isn't how things are supposed to work.

Were you ever denied admission on C&F grounds, or have they just... sat on your application for two whole years without rendering any decision either way?

If the latter, perhaps you could consider - and I realize this is MUCH easier said than done - applying to another state. Many states don't have C&F processes nearly as onerous/slow-moving as CA's (or, for that matter, bar exams nearly as challenging as the CA bar).

[InterAlia1961]

Like I said what's done is done in your case. It either happened or it didn't. Really I'm posting to warn other people. If they want to believe both (a) that the bar will aggressively dig on the internet until they find something on people to try to keep them out and (b) that also they don't pay attention to this forum and totally ignore it when a guy is giving all the details of his arrest records and issues with the police and issues with the state bar itself, then fine. If you think people aren't going to gossip about something like that when it's directed at their office and that there were lots of other people with the same exact fact patterns in their prior history as you going to hearings on the same day, fine. But I'm saying I think it's a senseless risk to take and that if I were trying to convince the bar that I no longer had issues with authority figures and that my arrests and issues with the police were in my past, I wouldn't be posting like that and I wouldn't be posting my info online. There's a tone that's appropriate for criticism in this context and this isn't it.

I invite everyone who thinks the Bar is watching this or any other forum to consider a couple of things. 1) A recent audit of the State Bar was just completed. The Bar had asked for an additional 58 staff members because they're so far behind on MC and attorney discipline cases. They got 19. The reason the auditors gave for not allowing more is that the State Bar of California has about 40% of open positions unfilled and those that are filled experience a high turnover rate. These people can barely do the basics, let alone watch forums and triangulate situations to identify an applicant. Remember, they do 100s of informal conference each year. Watch the public webcasts. The former Head of Moral Character Determinations said so in an open meeting. They're overwhelmed, and it's almost a certainty that the continuing high turnover and open positions are leading to mistakes and delays.

https://www.bsa.ca.gov/reports/2018-030/index.html

They check your LinkedIn account, your Facebook and Instagram accounts if they can, and do a general sweep to see if you operate any unsavory websites. They do not sit on forums like this and try to figure out who is who.

[InterAlia1961]

As for the tone? This is a message board about people's thoughts and a place to express them. Just because you think potentially shitty and unprofessional thoughts doesn't mean that you won't follow the rules and behave like a professional, so that would kinda suck.

Exactly.

[InterAlia1961]

This is it for me. If this doesn't happen... I can't recover from this. I'm not 26 years old with my life still ahead of me. I chose law as a second career. It's way too late to start anything else, and I can't go back unless I wholly abandon the entire notion of being an attorney.

I've lost my confidence. I work 3 different shit jobs just to keep from being homeless. God, I fucked up by going to law school. Five years gone and I gave up so much to do this.

My crime/issues? They're located earlier in the thread (one DUI 7 years ago, a couple of non-moral turpitude civil suits that are now a decade old).

This is insane.

In no other line of work can such decisions be made with such arbitrariness and so little oversight. It feels so abusive.

Good god, to pass the hardest bar exam in the country and be completely in the negative for all the effort it took. I'm too old to say that this isn't how things are supposed work, but goddammit, this isn't how things are supposed to work.

Listen, it's okay to feel this way. You're supposed to feel this way. It's part of the game, and it is a game for the Committee. It shouldn't be, but it is. This happened to me the first time I was denied. They sat on my C&F application for 22 mos. before calling me to informal conference, which I was too broke to attend. I was still living outside of CA then. If you get called for an informal conference and can go, please msg me. I can tell you what to expect and where the traps are.

I can't turn back, either. I remember a movie called Gattaca, about genetically superior humans. The protagonist, who is genetically inferior to his bio-engineered sibling agrees to race his brother from the beach to a distant rock in the ocean. The sibling is amused, because he knows the protagonist can't win. But he does. The problem arises when the defeated sibling wants to go back. The protagonist has to admit that he can't swim back, because he didn't save anything for the swim. He just wanted to get the rock. He needed help to get back, and that's when he was utterly defeated. That's when he decided to go for the furthest rock, knowing he would never, ever get back. Sometimes, you have no choice but to go forward, no matter how painful the journey, because you know you don't have the strength to go back.

Think about withdrawing your application and applying somewhere else. Since you haven't been formally denied, you can honestly say that you've never been denied admission in another jurisdiction. If like me, you're stuck with California because of a non-traditional path, there's no turning back. You have to do this thing. Send a certified letter to the head of Moral Determinations and ask what the hold-up is. If the ride gets bumpy, I'll help you as much as I can. Someone is helping me. I'm committed to paying it forward.

Hang in there. Don't let go. I'll say a prayer for you.

[hockeyman969]

I want to place my word in as I entered another state's C&F process : financial disaster as a result of divorce (granted all paid before I got first admission), admitted in states before and during process, dealt with criminal allegations during divorce (dropped like hot potato), nasty divorce.

Submitted application and they found something other states didn't find, thought for sure was going to result in hearing. Contact C&F attorney who advises me to provide response (it was a case of mistaken identity and allegations were withdrawn). I put together a straight forward response and they approved me for admission. I found I did well because I didn't lose hope, was completely honest and didn't spin my responses. Just my experience, might help might not.

[bacillusanthracis]

Listen, it's okay to feel this way. You're supposed to feel this way. It's part of the game, and it is a game for the Committee. It shouldn't be, but it is. This happened to me the first time I was denied. They sat on my C&F application for 22 mos. before calling me to informal conference, which I was too broke to attend. I was still living outside of CA then. If you get called for an informal conference and can go, please msg me. I can tell you what to expect and where the traps are.

I can't turn back, either. I remember a movie called Gattaca, about genetically superior humans. The protagonist, who is genetically inferior to his bio-engineered sibling agrees to race his brother from the beach to a distant rock in the ocean. The sibling is amused, because he knows the protagonist can't win. But he does. The problem arises when the defeated sibling wants to go back. The protagonist has to admit that he can't swim back, because he didn't save anything for the swim. He just wanted to get the rock. He needed help to get back, and that's when he was utterly defeated. That's when he decided to go for the furthest rock, knowing he would never, ever get back. Sometimes, you have no choice but to go forward, no matter how painful the journey, because you know you don't have the strength to go back.

Think about withdrawing your application and applying somewhere else. Since you haven't been formally denied, you can honestly say that you've never been denied admission in another jurisdiction. If like me, you're stuck with California because of a non-traditional path, there's no turning back. You have to do this thing. Send a certified letter to the head of Moral Determinations and ask what the hold-up is. If the ride gets bumpy, I'll help you as much as I can. Someone is helping me. I'm committed to paying it forward.

Hang in there. Don't let go. I'll say a prayer for you.

Thanks man.

I'm glad you were here to tell your story. It's actually begun to prepare me to face the fact I may have totally wasted 5 years of my life. It's so hard to deal with this.

I left home at 7:00 am yesterday morning to go to work, and I got home at about 9 last night. I worked 13 hours at two different jobs and netted about $140 for my efforts. Today I'll work 9 hours at one job and net about $95.

I have a life behind me where I served in the U.S. Army, owned my own business, and did outside sales for our family owned business. That experience is well over 20 years. I have bought and sold 7 houses, paid off 7 mortgages, as well as god knows how many credit cards and cars.

Today I will come home with sore feet, a sore back, and I'm running a fever. It hurts to breathe---I think I may have a kidney infection. But going to the doctor is not an option. I can't miss work, and my VA paperwork hasn't come back yet. I have about $90 to get me through until Thursday and a quarter tank of gas.

I've been waiting 20 months for approval.

I need to defer my loans for another year so that I can get a teaching credential. I'll get paid shit for being a sub, but it'll be more than I'm making now and the hours will be reasonable. And if I keep my second job, I'll gross as much as 40K my first year.

God.

I have a law degree from an ABA school and I passed the California bar exam.

[legallybrunette94]

I just submitted my Moral Character application today and I'm taking the bar in July in CA. Other than a few late credit card payments that are now current, I don't have any issues on my application. Can anyone tell me if my application should be approved by the time bar results come out in November?

[Underoath]

I was told that my app should have a decision by July. If I pass, should I let them know I passed and have them speed it up or just be patient and not tick them off since they said July a decision would be made?

[InterAlia1961]

I just submitted my Moral Character application today and I'm taking the bar in July in CA. Other than a few late credit card payments that are now current, I don't have any issues on my application. Can anyone tell me if my application should be approved by the time bar results come out in November?

It takes at least six months after your file is complete. Most people report they're cleared in 8 months or so. It's worse than waiting for the results of the bar exam.

[bacillusanthracis]

I just submitted my Moral Character application today and I'm taking the bar in July in CA. Other than a few late credit card payments that are now current, I don't have any issues on my application. Can anyone tell me if my application should be approved by the time bar results come out in November?

It takes at least six months after your file is complete. Most people report they're cleared in 8 months or so. It's worse than waiting for the results of the bar exam.

So true. At least when you fail the bar exam, you can try and figure out what went wrong and redouble your efforts. With this, it's completely out of your control.

For anyone who's waiting, I'd suggest you call just to make sure they have your application and that it's being processed. They do lose applications from time to time. As for how long it's going to take, well, it's going to take however long it takes. I've read some people who say that once they passed the bar, their app was quickly processed. Well, I'm into month 20 and I passed the July 2018 bar exam.

[rcharter1978]

I was told that my app should have a decision by July. If I pass, should I let them know I passed and have them speed it up or just be patient and not tick them off since they said July a decision would be made?

Dont try to "have them speed it up" because they won't. I sent in my application after I passed and it took nine months. Maybe each investigator is different, but I know mine didn't give a shit that I had passed.

[Blueplanet]

My moral character was considered as being submitted in Dec 18, received email they have all docs in Feb 19 and received positive assessment last week. All plain sailing no additional questions or queries. I never chased them. Quite frankly, couldn't be bothered to do so.

[apprentice2020]

My moral character was considered as being submitted in Dec 18, received email they have all docs in Feb 19 and received positive assessment last week. All plain sailing no additional questions or queries. I never chased them. Quite frankly, couldn't be bothered to do so.

Congratulations. Did you receive an e-mail, updated on the admission website, or a letter?

I submitted my application when you did and I haven't received a determination yet. No arrests, convictions, credit/debt issues, etc. Hopefully, it comes soon. I just want the MC to be off my plate now even though I'm not taking the bar until February 2020.

[alliwantis]

I passed the February bar (first time taker, graduated in December from a part time program), so I called the person they told me was in charge of my moral character app. I submitted it early November, and it was marked complete 1/9/19. I know it hasn't been 180 days, but I called today to check on the status. She told me "it hasn't been assigned to an investigator yet."

Has anyone else ever been told that when they called? It seems crazy that they haven't even had an investigator start whatever it is they do, right?

[FinallyPassedTheBar]

I passed the February bar (first time taker, graduated in December from a part time program), so I called the person they told me was in charge of my moral character app. I submitted it early November, and it was marked complete 1/9/19. I know it hasn't been 180 days, but I called today to check on the status. She told me "it hasn't been assigned to an investigator yet."

Has anyone else ever been told that when they called? It seems crazy that they haven't even had an investigator start whatever it is they do, right?

It took my MC application 8 over months to be approved. The bar assigned an investigator to my application around month 7.

[kiwh]

This was posted back in December but here is my timeline if it helps anyone. I had passed the February 2018 Bar and then submitted MC after results came out. I did have a few issues but they were disclosed in detail. My file was transferred to an investigator at the SF office. I talked with the investigator 10/18 and we went over the disclosed issues to see if I needed to submit any further information regarding the issues. I was always polite and respectful when I called. I never asked why it was taking so long.

6/9/18 submitted online
6/13/18 paper application received.
Early September realized I entered wrong place of birth. I called and they said to submit Birth certificate.
October 1 File was complete and sent to investigator. I did not receive any e-mail indicating this. I found out by calling
10/18/18 talked with investigator and was told minimum of 180 days to complete process
11/14/18 updated required information in file and had e-mail correspondence with investigator
12/10/18 which was day 181 left a message asking if there was anything I could provide and asked for a status update
12/12/18 received an e-mail at 9:00 AM stating that I was still in line for review and there were a few applicants in front of me.
12/12/18 received an e-mail at 4:00 PM stating I was cleared.
12/13/18 Updated on website

Took 183 days

[Underoath]

I was told that my app should have a decision by July. If I pass, should I let them know I passed and have them speed it up or just be patient and not tick them off since they said July a decision would be made?

Dont try to "have them speed it up" because they won't. I sent in my application after I passed and it took nine months. Maybe each investigator is different, but I know mine didn't give a shit that I had passed.

that's cool you still come on here and contribute, thanks.

[rcharter1978]

I was told that my app should have a decision by July. If I pass, should I let them know I passed and have them speed it up or just be patient and not tick them off since they said July a decision would be made?

Dont try to "have them speed it up" because they won't. I sent in my application after I passed and it took nine months. Maybe each investigator is different, but I know mine didn't give a shit that I had passed.

that's cool you still come on here and contribute, thanks.

Ha ha, if you're shading me, well done.

If not, I gave up TLS for a long time, but people on here are generally intelligent, and it's interesting to read issues and perspectives from people who come from a wide array of backgrounds.

[worriedgrad]

Great news, I wanted to update you all. I just received a positive determination letter today. And it happened without me even sending in the addendum I was advised to! I am incredibly shocked at how quickly they processed my app. (I'm guessing my app may have been prioritized since I already passed the bar exam?) In the end none of my issues/concerns caused any hiccups or problems. What a huge relief. Thank you again to those of you who provided support and sound advice when I was freaking out!

Congrats. When did you submit your application?

Hi Spoliation, I submitted it in late January, so it took only 3 months for me. Very lucky and surprising, especially since I had some concerns about things that could come up in their review. Big phew!