0L interested in viability of smaller markets Forum

[s'all good, man]

Hi all,

I'm a 0L applying this cycle (forgive me if I'm not supposed to post on this board) and I will likely be attending an HYSCCN at close to sticker. After graduation, I'm interested in clerking, then practicing in a medium-small big law market (in the range of Seattle, Denver, Atlanta, Portland, Pittsburgh, New Orleans, Salt Lake City [not sure if there is really any market for all of these, but it gives you a sense of the scale I mean]). The idea is that I'd like to be somewhere where I can still make 6 figures and pay off my loans in something approaching a reasonable amount of time (totally understand I won't be making 190k plus 15k bonus in my first year), but have a better work-life balance. Moreover, I'd like to be somewhere I could eventually buy a home at a reasonable cost (as opposed to in NY and DC). I also have pipe dreams of doing prestigious things like AUSA or, pipe dream of pipe dreams, being a district court judge, and while I imagine these might be somewhat more feasible in a market other than NY/DC/LA, I'd be okay just chugging along at a firm provided the pay and hours were decent.

From lurking, I understand that for smaller markets it is often better to attend a regional school than to attend a T14, especially if you have no ties to the region. I have ties to Chicago and New Jersey (while I know some firms have an office in Newark, I understand it's not a major market with NY so close), but none of the others. The problem, though, is that I am not sure which of these markets I'd prefer—my preference would be in large part determined by where my partner gets a job. Due to the nature of their work, it'd likely be a city of roughly this scale, but it's hard to predict where exactly it would be.

How feasible is it to achieve something like what I've outlined above? If the answer is "not very," is there anything I can to do make it more so? Thanks for any insights.

TL;DR interested in working in a small-mid market, but I don't know which one and have few to no ties. Is it possible?

[The Lsat Airbender]

All of those will be fairly hard without ties. You can pretty much forget Seattle/Portland/New Orleans/Salt Lake City, which are all very culturally insular (unless you're Mormon?) and Pittsburgh/Denver/Atlanta aren't exactly easy to break into either.

For your stated goals I'd just go for Chicago biglaw, with Houston or [whatever city your SO ends up in] as an intriguing dark-horse option and. Definitely don't do something insane like attend U Washington so you can get Seattle biglaw - it has about a 5% chance of working out, and you'd basically asking your partner to go all-in on Seattle which is probably not great for either the relationship or their career.

[s'all good, man]

All of those will be fairly hard without ties. You can pretty much forget Seattle/Portland/New Orleans/Salt Lake City, which are all very culturally insular (unless you're Mormon?) and Pittsburgh/Denver/Atlanta aren't exactly easy to break into either.

For your stated goals I'd just go for Chicago biglaw, with Houston or [whatever city your SO ends up in] as an intriguing dark-horse option and. Definitely don't do something insane like attend U Washington so you can get Seattle biglaw - it has about a 5% chance of working out, and you'd basically asking your partner to go all-in on Seattle which is probably not great for either the relationship or their career.

Thanks! This is really helpful, even if it's not exactly what I hoped to hear (not a big fan of the Chicago weather).

Some follow-up questions (for you or anyone else who stumbles into this thread):

Are those cities (Chicago/Houston) any more "relaxed" than DC/NY/LA?

How close do ties have to be to matter? Would it make any difference if I had immediate/non-immediate family living somewhere, or if my partner got a job there, but neither of us had ever lived there before? What about if I spent 1L summer living somewhere (assuming I could find a position when competing with regional students/people with ties)?

[acr]

All of those will be fairly hard without ties. You can pretty much forget Seattle/Portland/New Orleans/Salt Lake City, which are all very culturally insular (unless you're Mormon?) and Pittsburgh/Denver/Atlanta aren't exactly easy to break into either.

For your stated goals I'd just go for Chicago biglaw, with Houston or [whatever city your SO ends up in] as an intriguing dark-horse option and. Definitely don't do something insane like attend U Washington so you can get Seattle biglaw - it has about a 5% chance of working out, and you'd basically asking your partner to go all-in on Seattle which is probably not great for either the relationship or their career.

Thanks! This is really helpful, even if it's not exactly what I hoped to hear (not a big fan of the Chicago weather).

Some follow-up questions (for you or anyone else who stumbles into this thread):

Are those cities (Chicago/Houston) any more "relaxed" than DC/NY/LA?

How close do ties have to be to matter? Would it make any difference if I had immediate/non-immediate family living somewhere, or if my partner got a job there, but neither of us had ever lived there before? What about if I spent 1L summer living somewhere (assuming I could find a position when competing with regional students/people with ties)?

Not sure what you mean by "relaxed." NYC is notoriously a difficult place to live and work, but your quality of life in big law usually comes down to your practice group and partners. Mid law in Des Moines, Iowa can be shittier than big law in Chicago if you're working for a particularly bad partner etc. I would say that, in general, Chicago and Houston associates have a more "relaxed" life than an associate in NYC or DC, but you can't just apply that term to the entire city. It's still hard work no matter what.

As for the cities themselves, Chicago and Houston are better options, in my opinion, because your big law salary simply goes further. Chicago is a MCOL city with all the amenities of NYC, and Houston, which I don't really like, at least has decent weather. $200k in Chicago/Houston lets you live like a king, whereas $200k in NYC or DC, while certainly enough to survive and have a nice life, stretches you a bit more.

Regarding ties, the more interest you can demonstrate in an area through internships, family connections, and so on works in your favor, but there's no universal rule for that either. Some markets, like St. Louis (where I went to school) will literally want to know which high school you attended in the area, and having a 1L summer internship there probably wouldn't be strong enough. For other markets, having a partner living and working in the area, multiple internships there, etc. might be enough.

[nixy]

I think if your SO is doing something like medicine and gets placed in a particular city, that will create a legitimate tie. Those markets still won't be easy, but "I will be moving to your awesome city for my spouse's residence at Amazing Local Hospital" is way better than "we just decided Denver looked like a great place to live." Military assignment would probably be similar. But even any good job in the city will help - just something that signals a real commitment.

The earlier you know the location, the better - if you knew going in to school, and did a 1L summer in the city (and/or a visiting 3L year there, although you will want a job locked down before 3L obviously), you could make a reasonable play at OCI. Those are just really tough markets in part b/c the biglaw markets are tiny. You might also have better luck working NYC etc. for a couple of years and lateraling (though I don't know your spouse's timeline).

Something else that can also help create ties is clerking locally, and it gives you a year (or more) to network in that location. I know a number of people who used clerking to transition to a similar kind of market.

(I'm not sure how much better work/life balance will be in those cities - my sense is that there is a qualitative difference between NYC, especially, and other places, but you'll still be working a lot.)

[lavarman84]

This advice isn't exactly on point with the thread, but I'd recommend you don't go to one of those schools at a sticker or near sticker price. Your life will be much easier if you don't have around $200,000 in debt hanging over your head. You'll have more flexibility to follow your partner and do what you want with your career.

[ksm6969]

I think if your SO is doing something like medicine and gets placed in a particular city, that will create a legitimate tie.

Also, at the interview stage, firms dont actually know if you are married or have an SO or what they do . So the "my partner's whole family is from here and I promised I would move back after law school" thing can work, just make sure you have enough of a cover story (doesnt take much, basically just what neighborhood they are from) that you dont immediately get outed. And, unless you have an ethical problem with energy work, just plan on going to Texas as a backup-- easy to get a job from T6, market salary, cheap cost of life, big city, and decently complex work .

[s'all good, man]

Not sure what you mean by "relaxed." NYC is notoriously a difficult place to live and work, but your quality of life in big law usually comes down to your practice group and partners. Mid law in Des Moines, Iowa can be shittier than big law in Chicago if you're working for a particularly bad partner etc. I would say that, in general, Chicago and Houston associates have a more "relaxed" life than an associate in NYC or DC, but you can't just apply that term to the entire city. It's still hard work no matter what.

(I'm not sure how much better work/life balance will be in those cities - my sense is that there is a qualitative difference between NYC, especially, and other places, but you'll still be working a lot.)

Yeah, I know there's still a lot of work. I just meant what nixy said—that around this board I've seen people indicate that in NY there are generally higher hours targets, etc.

Thanks both for the helpful advice. It sounds like I'll have to wait and see what the options are and how soon I have some idea where to land. Or hope for a clerkship and hope SO can follow.

This advice isn't exactly on point with the thread, but I'd recommend you don't go to one of those schools at a sticker or near sticker price. Your life will be much easier if you don't have around $200,000 in debt hanging over your head. You'll have more flexibility to follow your partner and do what you want with your career.

I'd like to go somewhere with money, but for one reason or another I haven't received much money from anywhere. If I am offered a full ride or close to somewhere in the lower T14, there is a high chance I'll take it, but I don't expect that I will be.

[The Lsat Airbender]

Negotiate aggressively, then, especially because UVA/Duke could (still just a maybe, of course) help open up cities like Atlanta and Charlotte which might line up well with your stated goals in the OP.

[Iowahawk]

If your partner got a job in the market you’re looking for, that would definitely help (the highest QOL cities of the type you’re describing in the Midwest are probably Des Moines and Madison btw; not sure for other regions). Try to work there 1L, for free if you have to. It won’t be easy but it’s possible.

[FND]

going to one of those schools, you'll have no problem getting a job in a smaller market.
The only 'issue' is that employers might be wary of your interest in that market but if you have a compelling story, you'll be fine - especially if you spend your summers interning/clerking/SAing there. The fact that your significant other is living there (or will be) is certainly good enough.
Trust me, they'll take HYSCCN over the local school any day of the week.

The bigger question is financial. Seattle has a high cost of living, and a relatively low starting salary. From a salary vs coi perspective, Dallas & Houston are the holy grail - biglaw generally pays New York rates, and you could literally buy a house off one year's salary. In some markets it varies from firm to firm, and you should do some research on NALP to figure out which firms pay more and which pay less.

But just to get you started, check this: https://abovethelaw.com/2018/06/salary- ... ises-2018/

[FND]

I'd like to go somewhere with money, but for one reason or another I haven't received much money from anywhere.

Have you asked? I literally said "I really appreciate getting accepted to XYZ school, but I'm concerned about the price. Is there anything you can do?" and was given a $30k/yr scholarship within a few days.

The other thing you can do is say "NYU, I really like you, and prefer you as a school, but I also got accepted to Harvard, and the cost of living in Boston is cheaper. Is there anything you can do to help me out?"

Only hit up one school at a time. That way, as soon as you get one scholarship offer, your next step will be "Columbia, I really like you, and would love to attend, but NYU offered me $$. Is there anything you can do?"

Play them against each other. The worst that can happen is that they say no, you have to pay full price.

[s'all good, man]

Negotiate aggressively, then, especially because UVA/Duke could (still just a maybe, of course) help open up cities like Atlanta and Charlotte which might line up well with your stated goals in the OP.

I'd like to go somewhere with money, but for one reason or another I haven't received much money from anywhere.

Have you asked? I literally said "I really appreciate getting accepted to XYZ school, but I'm concerned about the price. Is there anything you can do?" and was given a $30k/yr scholarship within a few days.

The other thing you can do is say "NYU, I really like you, and prefer you as a school, but I also got accepted to Harvard, and the cost of living in Boston is cheaper. Is there anything you can do to help me out?"

Only hit up one school at a time. That way, as soon as you get one scholarship offer, your next step will be "Columbia, I really like you, and would love to attend, but NYU offered me $$. Is there anything you can do?"

Play them against each other. The worst that can happen is that they say no, you have to pay full price.

I'll definitely be negotiating as soon as I start getting offers (don't want to beg NYU for more before I hear their initial offer). I am just prepared for the possibility that I don't get anything significant because I missed the full- and half-ride scholarships at Columbia and haven't gotten in to UVA/Michigan. (I think that as a splitter I may be in an awkward position where I'm getting into some of YSHCCN but not getting lots of money from anyone.)

If your partner got a job in the market you’re looking for, that would definitely help (the highest QOL cities of the type you’re describing in the Midwest are probably Des Moines and Madison btw; not sure for other regions). Try to work there 1L, for free if you have to. It won’t be easy but it’s possible.

This is really helpful to know. Hopefully I can figure out quickly enough where to try to spend 1L summer.

going to one of those schools, you'll have no problem getting a job in a smaller market.
The only 'issue' is that employers might be wary of your interest in that market but if you have a compelling story, you'll be fine - especially if you spend your summers interning/clerking/SAing there. The fact that your significant other is living there (or will be) is certainly good enough.
Trust me, they'll take HYSCCN over the local school any day of the week.

The bigger question is financial. Seattle has a high cost of living, and a relatively low starting salary. From a salary vs coi perspective, Dallas & Houston are the holy grail - biglaw generally pays New York rates, and you could literally buy a house off one year's salary. In some markets it varies from firm to firm, and you should do some research on NALP to figure out which firms pay more and which pay less.

But just to get you started, check this: https://abovethelaw.com/2018/06/salary- ... ises-2018/

This is reassuring. And, yeah, as mentioned above, it'd be nice to be somewhere like Dallas/Houston where it's warm and I can "live like a king." I like being able to walk/bike, so those aren't great for that, but I guess I can't have it all. (Does New Orleans have a market/is it super insular like I understand Miami's is?)

[FND]

(Does New Orleans have a market/is it super insular like I understand Miami's is?)

the only thing I know about New Orleans is that Louisiana is the only state in the country that doesn't have common law, but civil law. That means that if you didn't go to law school in Louisiana, it's gonna be a lot harder passing the bar, because you need to unlearn everything you learned in law school.

[AJordan]

I understand your difficulty. My wife and I are going through it now. Ultimately we had to decide who was going to bite the bullet and assume the role of "flexible spouse" because we value living together over flying to see each other once or twice a month. For your goals, I echo the previous folks and think that you should check out Texas. No state taxes. Market lockstep pay. And Houston and Dallas are both open to hiring T-14s with less-than-ideal ties. Depending on your spouse's occupation, there is likely SOME work in that area they can do.

If you do plan on sticking with your smaller market plan, HYSCCN with full debt load seems like it doesn't make a ton of sense either. I'm a lower T-13 who interviewed for an SA in my own home market and while I got a willing callback and genuine interest, I had to sell myself the entire time for one of two open slots. I went to high school in the area. My whole family is in the area. I was still competing against the top grads from the local T2 whom the firm definitely valued. Furthermore, that pay-cut is not trivial. $205,000 in Dallas is something like $146,000 after $18k tax free 401k contribution and taxes. In my local market, the after tax/401k take home pay was around $85,000. Furthermore, exit options from the bigger market (in case we don't survive long in biglaw) are far greater.

Ultimately you've got your choice to make. If you take the loans, you've got to follow the money. If you don't, you've got more freedom to follow your spouse. But understand that 1) these markets you're targeting are likely just as hard, if not harder, to land than top-paying markets, 2) the money you'll be making there will be significantly reduced, and 3) even if you do succeed, these smaller markets are not often "more relaxed". 2,000 billable hours in Des Moines or SLC is still 2,000 billable hours.

[FND]

even if you do succeed, these smaller markets are not often "more relaxed". 2,000 billable hours in Des Moines or SLC is still 2,000 billable hours.

But is this really the case? I know that NYC generally has a higher requirement, sometimes as high as 2400 billable hours, but I've also seen a lot of secondary/tertiary markets where the requirement is 1850, and I've even seen 1700.
It's firm-specific, but, places like Des Moines tend to have lower billable requirements than Dallas. On top of that, the idea of 'hard work' in a place like Wichita is very different than the idea of 'hard work' in a place like Washington D.C.

Just about everyone I know who moved from the big coastal markets to flyover country has told me the same thing - they work less than they ever did before and they're still working harder than aeveryone around.

[QContinuum]

even if you do succeed, these smaller markets are not often "more relaxed". 2,000 billable hours in Des Moines or SLC is still 2,000 billable hours.

But is this really the case? I know that NYC generally has a higher requirement, sometimes as high as 2400 billable hours, but I've also seen a lot of secondary/tertiary markets where the requirement is 1850, and I've even seen 1700.
It's firm-specific, but, places like Des Moines tend to have lower billable requirements than Dallas. On top of that, the idea of 'hard work' in a place like Wichita is very different than the idea of 'hard work' in a place like Washington D.C.

Just about everyone I know who moved from the big coastal markets to flyover country has told me the same thing - they work less than they ever did before and they're still working harder than aeveryone around.

Typical billable minimums in NYC/DC/Sil Val range from 1800-2100, with 1900-2000 being the most common. A 2400 minimum would be a real outlier and I wouldn't recommend that anyone go to such a firm if they had a choice.

One thing to be wary of with minimums anywhere is how much work is actually available. At many lower-Vault firms in the major markets, and at some firms in secondary markets, there isn't enough work to go around, so it can be tough even to scrounge up enough work to hit a seemingly-low minimum. I've experienced both, and the stress of billing mucho hours is typically preferable to the stress of spending hours and hours (all of which are nonbillable) scrounging for, hoping for, and praying for more billable work to do. Again, this isn't a big market-vs.-small market thing, but a firm-to-firm thing. I've found that it's very helpful to sound out the associates about this during the interview process.

[FND]

even if you do succeed, these smaller markets are not often "more relaxed". 2,000 billable hours in Des Moines or SLC is still 2,000 billable hours.

But is this really the case? I know that NYC generally has a higher requirement, sometimes as high as 2400 billable hours, but I've also seen a lot of secondary/tertiary markets where the requirement is 1850, and I've even seen 1700.
It's firm-specific, but, places like Des Moines tend to have lower billable requirements than Dallas. On top of that, the idea of 'hard work' in a place like Wichita is very different than the idea of 'hard work' in a place like Washington D.C.

Just about everyone I know who moved from the big coastal markets to flyover country has told me the same thing - they work less than they ever did before and they're still working harder than aeveryone around.

Typical billable minimums in NYC/DC/Sil Val range from 1800-2100, with 1900-2000 being the most common. A 2400 minimum would be a real outlier and I wouldn't recommend that anyone go to such a firm if they had a choice.

Let me rephrase. Target hours tend to be higher.
Plenty of firms have more reasonable minimum hour requirements, but a higher unofficial target. Plenty of firms have a separate bonus if you hit 2200 (Cadwalader, Fried Frank), 2300 Schulte, or some ephemeral exceptional/extraordinary performance (Baker McKenzie, Skadden, Cravath), and an unwritten policy that if you don't make that higher target, you probably won't last. Cravath, for example, doesn't have a minimum billing requirement, but most of their associates put in 2400+, and even if it's not required, if you're not keeping up with the pack, you're the first one to get cut.

Here's an email from QE that once got leaked, showing that their real target:

Subject: Need busy numbers today

In case you forgot: 5 is crazy busy, 4 is could do something but it would hurt and would have to be very small, 3 is you have some bandwidth and might be able to take on some more work, 2 is I could take on a bunch more work, my plate is not full, 1 is you need lots of work.

One further note, based on how busy everyone is if billing under 200 hours a month you are a 3. And don’t worry, you won’t be put on something huge, we just have lots of smaller cases that can really use help.

Send to me and copy entire cc line here. Need by Monday at 10 am.

Gracias and thanks for your continued hard work.

[QContinuum]

Let me rephrase. Target hours tend to be higher.
Plenty of firms have more reasonable minimum hour requirements, but a higher unofficial target. Plenty of firms have a separate bonus if you hit 2200 (Cadwalader, Fried Frank), 2300 Schulte, or some ephemeral exceptional/extraordinary performance (Baker McKenzie, Skadden, Cravath), and an unwritten policy that if you don't make that higher target, you probably won't last. Cravath, for example, doesn't have a minimum billing requirement, but most of their associates put in 2400+, and even if it's not required, if you're not keeping up with the pack, you're the first one to get cut.

Sure, target hours are typically higher than minimum hours. That said, Cravath is known to be particularly sweatshoppy, on a level above the NYC V10, and additional (typically relatively modest) bonuses at higher hours thresholds don't necessarily indicate insane hours are expected or required. And even the notorious QE email: not to defend QE at all, but that email doesn't necessarily mean much. The email itself implies that a "busy number" of "3" doesn't always correspond to 200 hours - it says that 3 = 200 "based on how busy everyone [currently] is". It sounds like the firm suddenly got a deluge of "small cases that can really use help", resulting in everyone getting swamped (litigators are typically on relatively long-term matters, meaning there tends to be less variable capacity to absorb a plethora of new small projects), resulting in everyone billing crazy hours that month, averaging 200 billables, meaning anyone "below average" in terms of busyness ought to shoulder more of the burden.

I'm not saying the above interpretation is necessarily correct, only that we should be hesitate to generalize based on Cravath's hours expectations or a single Quinn email.