data on Assistant DA, assistant US attorney Forum
- appind
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data on Assistant DA, assistant US attorney
i was looking for info on
- total number of DAs and approx range of number ADAs per DA office
- how difficult it's to obtain an ADA position right after a T6 law school
- how difficult it's to transition to AUSA from there
- class percentile gpa requirements to obtain these positions
there will be variation depending on specific T6, but wondering if one could point to such info for a school like H.
- total number of DAs and approx range of number ADAs per DA office
- how difficult it's to obtain an ADA position right after a T6 law school
- how difficult it's to transition to AUSA from there
- class percentile gpa requirements to obtain these positions
there will be variation depending on specific T6, but wondering if one could point to such info for a school like H.
- BlendedUnicorn
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Re: data on Assistant DA, assistant US attorney
No idea where you'd get data for 1, but the answer for everything else is it depends.
ADA/ASA jobs tend to care a lot less about prestige than biglaw or AUSA type jobs. Depending in whose doing the hiring going to a t14 might even be seen as a negative. Instead they care about dedication and personality- if you're set on doing prosecution it's probably better to pick a market, pick a school in that market, and then do everything you can to get internship time at the office than it is to go to a fancy school and blanket the country with apps.
As for transitioning from ADA to AUSA the answer is, again, it depends but it's never going to be easy. Would need to get complex trial experience and somehow prove you're a good writer. Different offices have different needs and preferences so not much else to say- it happens but most ADAs won't become AUSAs.
Finally, it depends. As a rule of thumb, grades are going to be less important than they are for biglaw.
You're not going to get the sort of hard, concrete answers you want here. There's just not enough data out there and the hiring process isn't really numbers driven in most markets. Safest path to AUSA is probably to go to a firm and try to do white collar or litigation for a few years and try to grab an AUSA job realizing that odds are against this outcome. If your heart is set on prosecution. I'd go to a strong local school in the market of your choice and gun hard for the job from day 1. Realize that you might not be able to go from ada to AUSA.
ADA/ASA jobs tend to care a lot less about prestige than biglaw or AUSA type jobs. Depending in whose doing the hiring going to a t14 might even be seen as a negative. Instead they care about dedication and personality- if you're set on doing prosecution it's probably better to pick a market, pick a school in that market, and then do everything you can to get internship time at the office than it is to go to a fancy school and blanket the country with apps.
As for transitioning from ADA to AUSA the answer is, again, it depends but it's never going to be easy. Would need to get complex trial experience and somehow prove you're a good writer. Different offices have different needs and preferences so not much else to say- it happens but most ADAs won't become AUSAs.
Finally, it depends. As a rule of thumb, grades are going to be less important than they are for biglaw.
You're not going to get the sort of hard, concrete answers you want here. There's just not enough data out there and the hiring process isn't really numbers driven in most markets. Safest path to AUSA is probably to go to a firm and try to do white collar or litigation for a few years and try to grab an AUSA job realizing that odds are against this outcome. If your heart is set on prosecution. I'd go to a strong local school in the market of your choice and gun hard for the job from day 1. Realize that you might not be able to go from ada to AUSA.
- cavalier1138
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Re: data on Assistant DA, assistant US attorney
In addition to the above, look at a USAO that you're interested in. I'm betting that you'll find one or two ADAs who made the transition up, while the rest of the office will have come in from biglaw/clerkship backgrounds. Offices in less competitive regions may have slightly different requirements, but the "prestige" USAOs value biglaw experience.
- appind
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Re: data on Assistant DA, assistant US attorney
If one is coming from a very non-law background, say only engineering coursework and work ex, is it realistic to get fed clerkship and eventually make a preftige AUSA in a mainstream public service law area (i.e. non patent or ip)?
- cavalier1138
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Re: data on Assistant DA, assistant US attorney
If you have top-notch grades and firm experience, it's realistic. It's not a guarantee, since a lot of getting an AUSA position is dumb luck, but without those prerequisites, you won't have the chance to get lucky.appind wrote:If one is coming from a very non-law background, say only engineering coursework and work ex, is it realistic to get fed clerkship and eventually make a preftige AUSA in a mainstream public service law area (i.e. non patent or ip)?
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- BlendedUnicorn
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Re: data on Assistant DA, assistant US attorney
I don't understand the question at all but especially not the bolded. AUSAs are generalist prosecutors (for the most part). Do you mean work in a prestigious office? Of course it's possible- nobody gives a shit about your pre-law school experience.appind wrote:If one is coming from a very non-law background, say only engineering coursework and work ex, is it realistic to get fed clerkship and eventually make a preftige AUSA in a mainstream public service law area (i.e. non patent or ip)?
- appind
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Re: data on Assistant DA, assistant US attorney
yes, i have heard that prestige of AUSA varies greatly with location. nyc may be highly coveted while some at some podunk place may be not so.HuntedUnicorn wrote:I don't understand the question at all but especially not the bolded. AUSAs are generalist prosecutors (for the most part). Do you mean work in a prestigious office? Of course it's possible- nobody gives a shit about your pre-law school experience.appind wrote:If one is coming from a very non-law background, say only engineering coursework and work ex, is it realistic to get fed clerkship and eventually make a preftige AUSA in a mainstream public service law area (i.e. non patent or ip)?
i found that there are about ~5800 AUSAs for 93 US attorneys, which is on average ~65 AUSA per USattorney.
DA positions could be very large in number in comparison as there are 3142 counties in the US. One DA/county, true?
any idea how many ADAs per DA on average?
- appind
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Re: data on Assistant DA, assistant US attorney
can one go to AUSA directly from clerkship without other experience?cavalier1138 wrote:In addition to the above, look at a USAO that you're interested in. I'm betting that you'll find one or two ADAs who made the transition up, while the rest of the office will have come in from biglaw/clerkship backgrounds. Offices in less competitive regions may have slightly different requirements, but the "prestige" USAOs value biglaw experience.
do AUSAs harbor desire to be US attorneys some day (i presume it's very difficult as there are only 93 appointed ones)?
- appind
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Re: data on Assistant DA, assistant US attorney
they still have some specialized duties and practice areas e.g. financial lit within civil division, true?HuntedUnicorn wrote:I don't understand the question at all but especially not the bolded. AUSAs are generalist prosecutors (for the most part). Do you mean work in a prestigious office? Of course it's possible- nobody gives a shit about your pre-law school experience.appind wrote:If one is coming from a very non-law background, say only engineering coursework and work ex, is it realistic to get fed clerkship and eventually make a preftige AUSA in a mainstream public service law area (i.e. non patent or ip)?
- BlendedUnicorn
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Re: data on Assistant DA, assistant US attorney
appind wrote:can one go to AUSA directly from clerkship without other experience?cavalier1138 wrote:In addition to the above, look at a USAO that you're interested in. I'm betting that you'll find one or two ADAs who made the transition up, while the rest of the office will have come in from biglaw/clerkship backgrounds. Offices in less competitive regions may have slightly different requirements, but the "prestige" USAOs value biglaw experience.
It happens but it's very rare. Varies by office.
do AUSAs harbor desire to be US attorneys some day (i presume it's very difficult as there are only 93 appointed ones)?
Some of them probably do? Not every US attorney will have been an AUSA though. The president nominates US attorneys and Congress confirms them.
- BlendedUnicorn
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Re: data on Assistant DA, assistant US attorney
Depends on office. The smaller the office, the less specialized they'll be. In Chicago, pretty much every criminal AUSA starts with narcotics and then moves into something more specialized after their first year or so. The civil side there is much smaller and I think they're all kind of generalists though I don't know for sure. SDNY and a few others might have super specialized civil AUSAs but I'm pretty sure that's the exception and not the rule.appind wrote:they still have some specialized duties and practice areas e.g. financial lit within civil division, true?HuntedUnicorn wrote:I don't understand the question at all but especially not the bolded. AUSAs are generalist prosecutors (for the most part). Do you mean work in a prestigious office? Of course it's possible- nobody gives a shit about your pre-law school experience.appind wrote:If one is coming from a very non-law background, say only engineering coursework and work ex, is it realistic to get fed clerkship and eventually make a preftige AUSA in a mainstream public service law area (i.e. non patent or ip)?
- appind
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Re: data on Assistant DA, assistant US attorney
it just seems like being able to transition from an AUSA position to possibly a preftige DA or some other influential position can be political.HuntedUnicorn wrote:Depends on office. The smaller the office, the less specialized they'll be. In Chicago, pretty much every criminal AUSA starts with narcotics and then moves into something more specialized after their first year or so. The civil side there is much smaller and I think they're all kind of generalists though I don't know for sure. SDNY and a few others might have super specialized civil AUSAs but I'm pretty sure that's the exception and not the rule.appind wrote:they still have some specialized duties and practice areas e.g. financial lit within civil division, true?HuntedUnicorn wrote:I don't understand the question at all but especially not the bolded. AUSAs are generalist prosecutors (for the most part). Do you mean work in a prestigious office? Of course it's possible- nobody gives a shit about your pre-law school experience.appind wrote:If one is coming from a very non-law background, say only engineering coursework and work ex, is it realistic to get fed clerkship and eventually make a preftige AUSA in a mainstream public service law area (i.e. non patent or ip)?
the US attorney is politically appointed so if one has opposite political leanings, then those AUSA can be at a dead end, true?
- BlendedUnicorn
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Re: data on Assistant DA, assistant US attorney
Not at a dead end- most AUSAs do other stuff with their career. They're generally seen as desirable attorneys because of their litigation experience (light years beyond your average biglaw associate and government connections). But yes, becoming a DA or US Attorney is extremely political and performance as an AUSA has almost nothing to do with who gets those slots. Best to think of it as a completely separate job and not the peak of the AUSA career path.appind wrote:it just seems like being able to transition from an AUSA position to possibly a preftige DA or some other influential position can be political.HuntedUnicorn wrote:Depends on office. The smaller the office, the less specialized they'll be. In Chicago, pretty much every criminal AUSA starts with narcotics and then moves into something more specialized after their first year or so. The civil side there is much smaller and I think they're all kind of generalists though I don't know for sure. SDNY and a few others might have super specialized civil AUSAs but I'm pretty sure that's the exception and not the rule.appind wrote:they still have some specialized duties and practice areas e.g. financial lit within civil division, true?HuntedUnicorn wrote:I don't understand the question at all but especially not the bolded. AUSAs are generalist prosecutors (for the most part). Do you mean work in a prestigious office? Of course it's possible- nobody gives a shit about your pre-law school experience.appind wrote:If one is coming from a very non-law background, say only engineering coursework and work ex, is it realistic to get fed clerkship and eventually make a preftige AUSA in a mainstream public service law area (i.e. non patent or ip)?
the US attorney is politically appointed so if one has opposite political leanings, then those AUSA can be at a dead end, true?
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- appind
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Re: data on Assistant DA, assistant US attorney
what realistic job should one gun for after LS to eventually go into a public service or elected representative role?HuntedUnicorn wrote: Not at a dead end- most AUSAs do other stuff with their career. They're generally seen as desirable attorneys because of their litigation experience (light years beyond your average biglaw associate and government connections). But yes, becoming a DA or US Attorney is extremely political and performance as an AUSA has almost nothing to do with who gets those slots. Best to think of it as a completely separate job and not the peak of the AUSA career path.
- appind
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Re: data on Assistant DA, assistant US attorney
are assistant attorney generals in a state similar to DAs?
- BlendedUnicorn
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Re: data on Assistant DA, assistant US attorney
Not too familiar with state AAGs but I'd imagine they do less prosecution work.appind wrote:are assistant attorney generals in a state similar to DAs?
As for your other question, IDK. I'm assuming you have the numbers to get into a t6 school and if you do:
If your number one goal is to be a prosecutor, go to a respected school in the city of your choice for as little money as possible and then do everything in your power to get experience with the local office. Career services and alums should be able to give you the details on the office you're interested in.
If your number one goal is eventually do some high level public service route nabbing a biglaw SAat a firm with a good litigation and white collar group and then trying to get a clerkship and/or a spot in an honors program is probably the way to go. Worst case scenario you grind out a few years of big law and then start working your connections.
As far as getting appointed- network your balls off. But that's so far out in the future it's not worth thinking about.
- cavalier1138
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Re: data on Assistant DA, assistant US attorney
If your ultimate goal is the bolded, then there's no real point in law school. Get an MPP (or don't) and start running for office.appind wrote: what realistic job should one gun for after LS to eventually go into a public service or elected representative role?
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- A. Nony Mouse
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Re: data on Assistant DA, assistant US attorney
It can depend on the state. There are non-criminal AAGs (who do things like election stuff, public utilities, tax, defending state against discrimination suits, etc). Some will do criminal cases, and at least in some places the criminal stuff may be more focused on slightly more complex/financial crime. I know one state where the AG's office handles all the criminal appeals for the state, but I don't know if that's common.appind wrote:are assistant attorney generals in a state similar to DAs?
Also I agree with HU - there are a lot of DAs/USAs who have worked as ADAs/AUSAs, but becoming a DA/USA isn't the culmination of the typical career path. Most won't end up there (or want to).
Also why do you want to know how many ADAs/AUSAs there are?
- White Dwarf
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Re: data on Assistant DA, assistant US attorney
Preet Bharara came to speak in one of my classes and he said SDNY has about 160-165 criminal AUSAs and 60 civil ones. I'd imagine it's one of, if not the largest offices.
I interviewed at the District of Utah last spring, and the interviewer said they have about 45 AUSAs total. I'd expect that's pretty typical of the more rural offices.
I interviewed at the District of Utah last spring, and the interviewer said they have about 45 AUSAs total. I'd expect that's pretty typical of the more rural offices.
- cavalier1138
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Re: data on Assistant DA, assistant US attorney
But think of all the fun FLDS tax evasion cases they must get in Utah!White Dwarf wrote:Preet Bharara came to speak in one of my classes and he said SDNY has about 160-165 criminal AUSAs and 60 civil ones. I'd imagine it's one of, if not the largest offices.
I interviewed at the District of Utah last spring, and the interviewer said they have about 45 AUSAs total. I'd expect that's pretty typical of the more rural offices.
- appind
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Re: data on Assistant DA, assistant US attorney
i am thinking of focusing on administrative law/IP law in the LS. is that going to be suitable for getting an AUSA if things work out or is it a good idea to focus on something that's more typical for civil division of AUSA e.g. financial lit, affirmative lit, civil rights etc? is administrative law study suitable or not for litigation positions?
i also notice that elected reps hire staff attorneys. how selective are they to obtain?
for the other qs. the Assistant attorney general is more unicorn or better than DA/ADA? i mainly wanted to know the number of DA/ADA to understand their selectivity etc. There are 3142 counties in the US so each one has 1 DA. that makes 3142 DAs and if each one has even a few of them, total ADAs can be more than 10,000, which is not small. so it doesn't seem like ADA should be that hard to obtain. (in comparison there are ~5800 AUSA).
i also notice that elected reps hire staff attorneys. how selective are they to obtain?
for the other qs. the Assistant attorney general is more unicorn or better than DA/ADA? i mainly wanted to know the number of DA/ADA to understand their selectivity etc. There are 3142 counties in the US so each one has 1 DA. that makes 3142 DAs and if each one has even a few of them, total ADAs can be more than 10,000, which is not small. so it doesn't seem like ADA should be that hard to obtain. (in comparison there are ~5800 AUSA).
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- cavalier1138
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Re: data on Assistant DA, assistant US attorney
I don't understand.
Are you interested in IP law, criminal law, or general litigation? You seem all over the map here, and I'm starting to get the sense that you're treating an AUSA position as a stepping stone to some grander career that has nothing to do with practicing law...
Are you interested in IP law, criminal law, or general litigation? You seem all over the map here, and I'm starting to get the sense that you're treating an AUSA position as a stepping stone to some grander career that has nothing to do with practicing law...
- mjb447
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Re: data on Assistant DA, assistant US attorney
It also doesn't really seem like you know what you want your career to lead to. Even the goal you expressed upthread of going into "a public service or elected representative role" (most of which don't require a law degree) is very vague and broad. Do you want to be president? A policy wonk? A bureaucrat? It seems like you're looking at legal jobs mostly as stepping stones, but it's not even clear where you're trying to go right now.
- BlendedUnicorn
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Re: data on Assistant DA, assistant US attorney
Yeah dude you're not thinking about this the right way at all and your questions are weird.
- A. Nony Mouse
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Re: data on Assistant DA, assistant US attorney
Civil AUSAs do a lot of work defending the US against suit, which can involve administrative stuff (judicial reviews of agency actions, social security, that kind of thing), though it's a lot of civil rights (often prisoner suits), personal injury, employment discrimination, that kind of thing. They also do affirmative litigation like bringing civil actions re: fraud, environmental enforcement, ADA enforcement and such, but at a lot of offices there is much more defense work than affirmative lit. (Also there's a lot of forfeiture stuff.) I don't think IP would be at all relevant to a civil AUSA (I think any government IP work would be out of main justice or other agencies).
Civil AUSA is a great gig but it also doesn't seem to lend itself to future political positions the way that criminal does (though that's just an impression).
The difficulty of getting an ADA job isn't based only on how many there are, but on how many openings there are when you want one and how many people apply. They're certainly obtainable right out of law school, but not guaranteed. They don't require or even necessarily reward top grades at a top school - it's much more about what experience you get in law school and getting to know people who will be doing hiring.
But it also doesn't sound to me like you're really interested in criminal prosecution?
Civil AUSA is a great gig but it also doesn't seem to lend itself to future political positions the way that criminal does (though that's just an impression).
The difficulty of getting an ADA job isn't based only on how many there are, but on how many openings there are when you want one and how many people apply. They're certainly obtainable right out of law school, but not guaranteed. They don't require or even necessarily reward top grades at a top school - it's much more about what experience you get in law school and getting to know people who will be doing hiring.
But it also doesn't sound to me like you're really interested in criminal prosecution?
Seriously? What are you waiting for?
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