What are my chances for a CoA? Forum

[Anonymous User]

OP here. It’s not about returning to my old firm. It’s about transitioning to appellate litigation (that would be the dream scenario).

I’m wondering what my likelihood would be if I were able to apply to less competitive CoAs. I am geographically limited currently. But in the event I can make myself more flexible, perhaps that would be the way to go.

In that case I'm wondering. If I'm a second or third year associate coming out of a COA clerkship and going to a non-descript NYC lit biglaw firm (i.e., a firm where not everyone clerked) like S&C/Cravath/DPW/STB/PW/GD/whatever else is in the V10 am I a hot commodity or get a bonus or is it just like your another nameless junior associate who just happens to get a clerkship bonus. I assume there is some assumed competence from the clerkship, but I'm wondering how much.

[Anonymous User]

It's going to help that you've clerked twice before, went to a T6, and got decent grades. Obviously some honors would be better but your grades shouldn't hold you back too much. I think a lot of it will boil down to your biglaw experience. V5 firms are going to help, especially in NY. If it's Cravath/Wachtell, that's even better, but the fact that you just wrote "V5" leads me to conclude it's DPW or Sullcrom or the like. If so, that will still help but it's more common and less prestigious. Cast a wide net. Be open to a less competitive circuit.

Not that this super matters at all, but all of those firms are fairly degree of grade sensitive at CLS/NYU. Pretty unlikely that they are at any of them with median grades.

I also don't think Cravath vs DPW vs Latham vs Cleary vs whomstever top tier firm matters much to your clerkship chances. To the extent it does, it matters that there are people you have worked with that have connections to the judges, but there are former clerks for most of CA2 at most of the major NYC firms.

Maybe Wachtell helps, but also maybe people with the credentials to get Wachtell independently have the credentials to get good clerkships. Pretty impossible to parse

There is a degree of chicken or egg to this, but OP has already been at this V5 for a while. If it's one of the V2, that's top-flight work experience. If it's SullCrom or DPW, less so (think doc review galore)

Different anon, there is no such thing as the V2, Wachtell stands above other corporate firms in terms of selectivity, prominence, and pay. Everyone knows this, please stop shilling

Not trying to shill or anything, but aren't quality and breadth of work, early responsibility, prestige, and network important? If the answer is yes, as we know it is, the top two stand apart from the others. This is reflected in the rankings (regional, too). The V2 are always in a league of their own in terms of the raw score. I really am starting to think this is sour grapes and it's somewhat odd

New poster weighing in. In New York, Wachtell is in a tier of its own (along with Susman, if you include the boutiques). Cravath is indistinguishable from the other elite New York firms. If anything, for clerkships I would give the slight edge to S&C. Its New York office has a significantly higher percentage of former COA clerks than Cravath, and it has 9 SCOTUS clerks to Cravath's 1. Add in the free-market system and it is easier at S&C to network your way into a LOR or phone call from a target judge's former clerk. At Cravath, if your first rotation is with an unconnected securities litigator you're screwed.

I'm more junior so don't have as much insight but maybe it will be relevant to OP if he wants to return to his V5. Does having a circuit clerkship in a firm like DPW/S&C/Cravath produce any tangible career benefits or anything in the way you are treated there that would make it worth clerking a third year or leaving to clerk.

Again, it depends on the firm. At DPW or Cravath, probably not. Skadden, SullCrom, and Latham all have appellate groups and a COA clerkship could help you get your foot in the door there.

[Anonymous User]

Not that this super matters at all, but all of those firms are fairly degree of grade sensitive at CLS/NYU. Pretty unlikely that they are at any of them with median grades.

I also don't think Cravath vs DPW vs Latham vs Cleary vs whomstever top tier firm matters much to your clerkship chances. To the extent it does, it matters that there are people you have worked with that have connections to the judges, but there are former clerks for most of CA2 at most of the major NYC firms.

Maybe Wachtell helps, but also maybe people with the credentials to get Wachtell independently have the credentials to get good clerkships. Pretty impossible to parse

There is a degree of chicken or egg to this, but OP has already been at this V5 for a while. If it's one of the V2, that's top-flight work experience. If it's SullCrom or DPW, less so (think doc review galore)

Different anon, there is no such thing as the V2, Wachtell stands above other corporate firms in terms of selectivity, prominence, and pay. Everyone knows this, please stop shilling

Not trying to shill or anything, but aren't quality and breadth of work, early responsibility, prestige, and network important? If the answer is yes, as we know it is, the top two stand apart from the others. This is reflected in the rankings (regional, too). The V2 are always in a league of their own in terms of the raw score. I really am starting to think this is sour grapes and it's somewhat odd

New poster weighing in. In New York, Wachtell is in a tier of its own (along with Susman, if you include the boutiques). Cravath is indistinguishable from the other elite New York firms. If anything, for clerkships I would give the slight edge to S&C. Its New York office has a significantly higher percentage of former COA clerks than Cravath, and it has 9 SCOTUS clerks to Cravath's 1. Add in the free-market system and it is easier at S&C to network your way into a LOR or phone call from a target judge's former clerk. At Cravath, if your first rotation is with an unconnected securities litigator you're screwed.

I'm more junior so don't have as much insight but maybe it will be relevant to OP if he wants to return to his V5. Does having a circuit clerkship in a firm like DPW/S&C/Cravath produce any tangible career benefits or anything in the way you are treated there that would make it worth clerking a third year or leaving to clerk.

Again, it depends on the firm. At DPW or Cravath, probably not. Skadden, SullCrom, and Latham all have appellate groups and a COA clerkship could help you get your foot in the door there.

But at DPW or Cravath does an appellate clerkship set you apart in any way or is more like oh cool you had a clerkship whatever. Trying to gage how valuable this is going to be for someone who just wants to work at a standard v10 corporate lit gig.

[Anonymous User]

There is a degree of chicken or egg to this, but OP has already been at this V5 for a while. If it's one of the V2, that's top-flight work experience. If it's SullCrom or DPW, less so (think doc review galore)

Different anon, there is no such thing as the V2, Wachtell stands above other corporate firms in terms of selectivity, prominence, and pay. Everyone knows this, please stop shilling

Not trying to shill or anything, but aren't quality and breadth of work, early responsibility, prestige, and network important? If the answer is yes, as we know it is, the top two stand apart from the others. This is reflected in the rankings (regional, too). The V2 are always in a league of their own in terms of the raw score. I really am starting to think this is sour grapes and it's somewhat odd

New poster weighing in. In New York, Wachtell is in a tier of its own (along with Susman, if you include the boutiques). Cravath is indistinguishable from the other elite New York firms. If anything, for clerkships I would give the slight edge to S&C. Its New York office has a significantly higher percentage of former COA clerks than Cravath, and it has 9 SCOTUS clerks to Cravath's 1. Add in the free-market system and it is easier at S&C to network your way into a LOR or phone call from a target judge's former clerk. At Cravath, if your first rotation is with an unconnected securities litigator you're screwed.

I'm more junior so don't have as much insight but maybe it will be relevant to OP if he wants to return to his V5. Does having a circuit clerkship in a firm like DPW/S&C/Cravath produce any tangible career benefits or anything in the way you are treated there that would make it worth clerking a third year or leaving to clerk.

Again, it depends on the firm. At DPW or Cravath, probably not. Skadden, SullCrom, and Latham all have appellate groups and a COA clerkship could help you get your foot in the door there.

But at DPW or Cravath does an appellate clerkship set you apart in any way or is more like oh cool you had a clerkship whatever. Trying to gage how valuable this is going to be for someone who just wants to work at a standard v10 corporate lit gig.

Every top firm likes to see clerks. District court clerks more so because that's more relevant work experience (especially if it's in a relevant district). The V2 so rarely take laterals, though, so it's a long-shot either way. Larger and less elite firms like PW and SullCrom are more likely to bite.

[Anonymous User]

Different anon, there is no such thing as the V2, Wachtell stands above other corporate firms in terms of selectivity, prominence, and pay. Everyone knows this, please stop shilling

Not trying to shill or anything, but aren't quality and breadth of work, early responsibility, prestige, and network important? If the answer is yes, as we know it is, the top two stand apart from the others. This is reflected in the rankings (regional, too). The V2 are always in a league of their own in terms of the raw score. I really am starting to think this is sour grapes and it's somewhat odd

New poster weighing in. In New York, Wachtell is in a tier of its own (along with Susman, if you include the boutiques). Cravath is indistinguishable from the other elite New York firms. If anything, for clerkships I would give the slight edge to S&C. Its New York office has a significantly higher percentage of former COA clerks than Cravath, and it has 9 SCOTUS clerks to Cravath's 1. Add in the free-market system and it is easier at S&C to network your way into a LOR or phone call from a target judge's former clerk. At Cravath, if your first rotation is with an unconnected securities litigator you're screwed.

I'm more junior so don't have as much insight but maybe it will be relevant to OP if he wants to return to his V5. Does having a circuit clerkship in a firm like DPW/S&C/Cravath produce any tangible career benefits or anything in the way you are treated there that would make it worth clerking a third year or leaving to clerk.

Again, it depends on the firm. At DPW or Cravath, probably not. Skadden, SullCrom, and Latham all have appellate groups and a COA clerkship could help you get your foot in the door there.

But at DPW or Cravath does an appellate clerkship set you apart in any way or is more like oh cool you had a clerkship whatever. Trying to gage how valuable this is going to be for someone who just wants to work at a standard v10 corporate lit gig.

Every top firm likes to see clerks. District court clerks more so because that's more relevant work experience (especially if it's in a relevant district). The V2 so rarely take laterals, though, so it's a long-shot either way. Larger and less elite firms like PW and SullCrom are more likely to bite.

Ok see now I feel like I'm being trolled again by this Cravath guy. Does anyone else have any insights on clerking for a COA if I want to do just standard, non-appellate biglaw V10 lit work.

[Anonymous User]

Not trying to shill or anything, but aren't quality and breadth of work, early responsibility, prestige, and network important? If the answer is yes, as we know it is, the top two stand apart from the others. This is reflected in the rankings (regional, too). The V2 are always in a league of their own in terms of the raw score. I really am starting to think this is sour grapes and it's somewhat odd

New poster weighing in. In New York, Wachtell is in a tier of its own (along with Susman, if you include the boutiques). Cravath is indistinguishable from the other elite New York firms. If anything, for clerkships I would give the slight edge to S&C. Its New York office has a significantly higher percentage of former COA clerks than Cravath, and it has 9 SCOTUS clerks to Cravath's 1. Add in the free-market system and it is easier at S&C to network your way into a LOR or phone call from a target judge's former clerk. At Cravath, if your first rotation is with an unconnected securities litigator you're screwed.

I'm more junior so don't have as much insight but maybe it will be relevant to OP if he wants to return to his V5. Does having a circuit clerkship in a firm like DPW/S&C/Cravath produce any tangible career benefits or anything in the way you are treated there that would make it worth clerking a third year or leaving to clerk.

Again, it depends on the firm. At DPW or Cravath, probably not. Skadden, SullCrom, and Latham all have appellate groups and a COA clerkship could help you get your foot in the door there.

But at DPW or Cravath does an appellate clerkship set you apart in any way or is more like oh cool you had a clerkship whatever. Trying to gage how valuable this is going to be for someone who just wants to work at a standard v10 corporate lit gig.

Every top firm likes to see clerks. District court clerks more so because that's more relevant work experience (especially if it's in a relevant district). The V2 so rarely take laterals, though, so it's a long-shot either way. Larger and less elite firms like PW and SullCrom are more likely to bite.

Ok see now I feel like I'm being trolled again by this Cravath guy. Does anyone else have any insights on clerking for a COA if I want to do just standard, non-appellate biglaw V10 lit work.

Actual answer is that I think it is an almost necessary precondition to a lot of the "desirable" big law CCL exits and is similar if you are trying to seriously push for partnership (especially in a world where firms make few to no lit partners).

Beyond that, I don't think it's getting you out of doc review beyond you coming in at a year that does less doc review (unless you go to a V2, where no one has ever sullied themselves w doc review, I guess). A lot of these firms have many COA clerks, I don't get the sense there is significant preferential treatment going on

[Anonymous User]

New poster weighing in. In New York, Wachtell is in a tier of its own (along with Susman, if you include the boutiques). Cravath is indistinguishable from the other elite New York firms. If anything, for clerkships I would give the slight edge to S&C. Its New York office has a significantly higher percentage of former COA clerks than Cravath, and it has 9 SCOTUS clerks to Cravath's 1. Add in the free-market system and it is easier at S&C to network your way into a LOR or phone call from a target judge's former clerk. At Cravath, if your first rotation is with an unconnected securities litigator you're screwed.

I'm more junior so don't have as much insight but maybe it will be relevant to OP if he wants to return to his V5. Does having a circuit clerkship in a firm like DPW/S&C/Cravath produce any tangible career benefits or anything in the way you are treated there that would make it worth clerking a third year or leaving to clerk.

Again, it depends on the firm. At DPW or Cravath, probably not. Skadden, SullCrom, and Latham all have appellate groups and a COA clerkship could help you get your foot in the door there.

But at DPW or Cravath does an appellate clerkship set you apart in any way or is more like oh cool you had a clerkship whatever. Trying to gage how valuable this is going to be for someone who just wants to work at a standard v10 corporate lit gig.

Every top firm likes to see clerks. District court clerks more so because that's more relevant work experience (especially if it's in a relevant district). The V2 so rarely take laterals, though, so it's a long-shot either way. Larger and less elite firms like PW and SullCrom are more likely to bite.

Ok see now I feel like I'm being trolled again by this Cravath guy. Does anyone else have any insights on clerking for a COA if I want to do just standard, non-appellate biglaw V10 lit work.

Actual answer is that I think it is an almost necessary precondition to a lot of the "desirable" big law CCL exits and is similar if you are trying to seriously push for partnership (especially in a world where firms make few to no lit partners).

Beyond that, I don't think it's getting you out of doc review beyond you coming in at a year that does less doc review (unless you go to a V2, where no one has ever sullied themselves w doc review, I guess). A lot of these firms have many COA clerks, I don't get the sense there is significant preferential treatment going on

What's a CCL exit?

[Anonymous User]

I'm more junior so don't have as much insight but maybe it will be relevant to OP if he wants to return to his V5. Does having a circuit clerkship in a firm like DPW/S&C/Cravath produce any tangible career benefits or anything in the way you are treated there that would make it worth clerking a third year or leaving to clerk.

Again, it depends on the firm. At DPW or Cravath, probably not. Skadden, SullCrom, and Latham all have appellate groups and a COA clerkship could help you get your foot in the door there.

But at DPW or Cravath does an appellate clerkship set you apart in any way or is more like oh cool you had a clerkship whatever. Trying to gage how valuable this is going to be for someone who just wants to work at a standard v10 corporate lit gig.

Every top firm likes to see clerks. District court clerks more so because that's more relevant work experience (especially if it's in a relevant district). The V2 so rarely take laterals, though, so it's a long-shot either way. Larger and less elite firms like PW and SullCrom are more likely to bite.

Ok see now I feel like I'm being trolled again by this Cravath guy. Does anyone else have any insights on clerking for a COA if I want to do just standard, non-appellate biglaw V10 lit work.

Actual answer is that I think it is an almost necessary precondition to a lot of the "desirable" big law CCL exits and is similar if you are trying to seriously push for partnership (especially in a world where firms make few to no lit partners).

Beyond that, I don't think it's getting you out of doc review beyond you coming in at a year that does less doc review (unless you go to a V2, where no one has ever sullied themselves w doc review, I guess). A lot of these firms have many COA clerks, I don't get the sense there is significant preferential treatment going on

What's a CCL exit?

Complex commercial lit, I think

[jotarokujo]

OP here. It’s not about returning to my old firm. It’s about transitioning to appellate litigation (that would be the dream scenario).

I’m wondering what my likelihood would be if I were able to apply to less competitive CoAs. I am geographically limited currently. But in the event I can make myself more flexible, perhaps that would be the way to go.

to answer the original question, I think you have a decent shot even without geographic flexibility. The two previously clerkship and work experience serously give a huge boost

[Anonymous User]

Again, it depends on the firm. At DPW or Cravath, probably not. Skadden, SullCrom, and Latham all have appellate groups and a COA clerkship could help you get your foot in the door there.

But at DPW or Cravath does an appellate clerkship set you apart in any way or is more like oh cool you had a clerkship whatever. Trying to gage how valuable this is going to be for someone who just wants to work at a standard v10 corporate lit gig.

Every top firm likes to see clerks. District court clerks more so because that's more relevant work experience (especially if it's in a relevant district). The V2 so rarely take laterals, though, so it's a long-shot either way. Larger and less elite firms like PW and SullCrom are more likely to bite.

Ok see now I feel like I'm being trolled again by this Cravath guy. Does anyone else have any insights on clerking for a COA if I want to do just standard, non-appellate biglaw V10 lit work.

Actual answer is that I think it is an almost necessary precondition to a lot of the "desirable" big law CCL exits and is similar if you are trying to seriously push for partnership (especially in a world where firms make few to no lit partners).

Beyond that, I don't think it's getting you out of doc review beyond you coming in at a year that does less doc review (unless you go to a V2, where no one has ever sullied themselves w doc review, I guess). A lot of these firms have many COA clerks, I don't get the sense there is significant preferential treatment going on

What's a CCL exit?

Complex commercial lit, I think

Yeah, I was kinda just using it as an umbrella term for general lit exits, but was thinking about fedgov and in-house for litigation management

[Anonymous User]

But at DPW or Cravath does an appellate clerkship set you apart in any way or is more like oh cool you had a clerkship whatever. Trying to gage how valuable this is going to be for someone who just wants to work at a standard v10 corporate lit gig.

Every top firm likes to see clerks. District court clerks more so because that's more relevant work experience (especially if it's in a relevant district). The V2 so rarely take laterals, though, so it's a long-shot either way. Larger and less elite firms like PW and SullCrom are more likely to bite.

Ok see now I feel like I'm being trolled again by this Cravath guy. Does anyone else have any insights on clerking for a COA if I want to do just standard, non-appellate biglaw V10 lit work.

Actual answer is that I think it is an almost necessary precondition to a lot of the "desirable" big law CCL exits and is similar if you are trying to seriously push for partnership (especially in a world where firms make few to no lit partners).

Beyond that, I don't think it's getting you out of doc review beyond you coming in at a year that does less doc review (unless you go to a V2, where no one has ever sullied themselves w doc review, I guess). A lot of these firms have many COA clerks, I don't get the sense there is significant preferential treatment going on

What's a CCL exit?

Complex commercial lit, I think

Yeah, I was kinda just using it as an umbrella term for general lit exits, but was thinking about fedgov and in-house for litigation management

Is a federal COA really necessary for those. Seems like overkill. I get SDNY AUSA sure, but in house litigation management?

[Anonymous User]

Every top firm likes to see clerks. District court clerks more so because that's more relevant work experience (especially if it's in a relevant district). The V2 so rarely take laterals, though, so it's a long-shot either way. Larger and less elite firms like PW and SullCrom are more likely to bite.

Ok see now I feel like I'm being trolled again by this Cravath guy. Does anyone else have any insights on clerking for a COA if I want to do just standard, non-appellate biglaw V10 lit work.

Actual answer is that I think it is an almost necessary precondition to a lot of the "desirable" big law CCL exits and is similar if you are trying to seriously push for partnership (especially in a world where firms make few to no lit partners).

Beyond that, I don't think it's getting you out of doc review beyond you coming in at a year that does less doc review (unless you go to a V2, where no one has ever sullied themselves w doc review, I guess). A lot of these firms have many COA clerks, I don't get the sense there is significant preferential treatment going on

What's a CCL exit?

Complex commercial lit, I think

Yeah, I was kinda just using it as an umbrella term for general lit exits, but was thinking about fedgov and in-house for litigation management

Is a federal COA really necessary for those. Seems like overkill. I get SDNY AUSA sure, but in house litigation management?

Yeah I think it's overkill for that, I oversold it. I think the exit to boutiques or a lot of enforcement-related federal government positions are pretty clerkship sensitive