Let go from judicial clerkship Forum

[Windriver23]

Hey everyone, so fresh out of law school I was hired as a term clerk for a federal judge. I signed a contract for employment to last 2 years. Sadly the judge recently informed me he is letting me go after a year because my writing skills are not good enough. He only gave me 1.5 months notice and now I will be unemployed. Also he said he will not provide a reference letter. So I have a few questions. 1. Do judges typically provide reference letters? I really don’t know what to do cause reference letters from prior employer are required in most job applications I’m seeing. Also am I entitled to severance or unemployment? Thanks

[Anonymous User]

Can I have some further clarificaiton to help you:

Was this unexpected or was it made clear this is coming? Are you saying you are unemployed right now or will be unemployed in 1.5 months? By lack of reference letter do you mean no recommendation letter or that if you put him down as a reference and someone calls him he will say mean things or, will not even confirm employment? If he'll just confirm employment that is workable, but if someone calls him and he starts saying really bad things, that is a lot more of an issue. You don't need his help for a job, but the goal here is that he'll at the very least remain neutral.

Finally, is this someone like Berman who has a very big reputation of firing or is this someone who has never fired a clerk.

[Anonymous User]

Yeah, it’s definitely worth clarifying the reference issue flagged above. It’s very common for judges not to actually *write* a letter for their clerks, or even pick up the phone themselves (many feel that this starts to look like they’re using their position to influence others). But judges normally will *act as a reference,* that is, if a prospective employer calls them up, they will answer the phone and give their opinion of you. They just won’t actively reach out, to avoid the appearance of impropriety.

You specifically mention the judge will not provide a reference *letter,* which shouldn’t be insurmountable because so many don’t, but you also say that “reference letters” are required in most job applications, which is not the case that I’ve seen in jobs other than clerkships; usually jobs want references, or the names of people they can call up, rather than literal letters. So it isn’t clear to me whether you mean that your judge doesn’t want to *write a letter*, or isn’t willing *to serve as a reference in any way.*

If the latter - I think there are a few judges who so don’t want to “use their influence” that they are reluctant even to comment to prospective employers, especially if those employers ever appear in their court. I don’t know that it’s common enough to go unnoticed, though, and I’d be reluctant to give that explanation for your lack of reference without clearing it with your judge.

If you yourself aren’t sure what the judge means, definitely go back and ask. If they aren’t willing to be a positive reference in any way, I’m not going to lie, that’s kind of rough. Most employers will see the clerkship on your resume and expect to see your judge listed as a reference. If you got a clerkship to begin with, you must have had decent LORs from profs and/or former employers - can you go to them and ask for advice? If you think the judge’s decision was unfair, not really about your work and/or not actually representative of your work, and/or this judge has a history of firing clerks, another reference may be able to proactively address that. Or they can at least emphasize whatever it was they saw in you that led them to recommend you in the first place.

I’d be shocked if you got severance; it’s not legally required and I can’t imagine there’s any provision for it in the court finances. You may be eligible for unemployment but that’s governed by the individual states so you’d need to check on that yourself. You can be disqualified for unemployment but it looks like it’s usually for misconduct, not unsatisfactory work product (that isn’t otherwise illegal). Someone who finishes a clerkship and can’t find a job probably wouldn’t be eligible, but you got fired so it should count.

Sorry that you’re dealing with this!

[Windriver23]

Hi,
Thanks so much for the replies. So the judge is letting me stay 1.5 months to complete 1 year of work. I was notified of this a few days ago. The judge does not have a bad reputation and I’m his second clerk because he’s a new judge and had extremely high expectations of me. He said he won’t provide a written reference letter and would not recommend me for another clerkship job. However I can provide his number for other types of jobs and he will provide a reference. However he said that the qualities he would mention are trustworthiness and complies with work hours and if asked directly about my writing skills “will tell the truth”. So it’s typical for judges not to provide written reference letters? Honestly the verbal reference he is willing to provide sounds pretty bad to me.

[Windriver23]

This was completely unexpected. The judge had told me about a month ago that he was not happy with my work product but I said I would try to improve and then a few days ago told me he’s letting me go. I was shocked!

[Anonymous User]

Wow, that judge is awful. You should tell your school’s career services, at the least. That way they can tell future clerkship applicants not to apply to him. There are so many dick judges out there.

[Anonymous User]

Hmmm. No, the verbal reference doesn't sound great, but you will at least be able to put him down as a reference, so your application on its face won't raise any suspicions. The issue will be whether an employer actually does reach out to the judge, it might hurt rather than help. So it is a difficult position, I'm sorry.

(But yes, it is common for a judge not to provide a written letter, even for clerks they think highly of, and again, most job applications don't actually ask for letters.)

I'll reiterate that you should reach out to your profs and/or any other legal mentors (say at former employers) who think well of you and can help you out. Be candid and ask for advice; maybe they have connections. Did you have a job offer in place for after the clerkship? If so, ask them if you can come back a year early (though in this case obviously don't tell them you've been fired, unless they ask). If your law school's career office was any good, maybe talk to them. Particularly, I think I'd ask everyone whether they think not putting your judge down as a reference would have a more negative effect than putting him down and risk employers getting the very lukewarm reference.

Also maybe explore jobs that don't traditionally have a big emphasis on writing, like state prosecutor/public defender? (Not b/c I'm endorsing your judge's assessment of you, just because they may be less likely to talk to your judge/care as much about the comments on writing.) And/or jobs where it's unlikely anyone there has any connection to this judge, so maybe they're less likely to reach out to them? (Like in your home market or law school market if they're different from the clerkship market?)

I am sorry you were blindsided by this and not able to turn it around in the judge's view. It's unfortunate that you didn't get feedback earlier.

(I think it's sort of tough for a judge b/c if a clerk genuinely can't handle the writing that the job requires, it can really gum up the works in a busy chambers, and it's hard for the judge to say the clerk was a good writer if they don't believe that. I wonder if a lot of judges stick to one-year terms so that if a clerk doesn't work out, they don't have to deal with anything like this. But it's also on the judge to accurately assess the clerk's writing skills at the application stage, especially given the consequences for the clerk when this kind of thing happens; also, too, the judge needs to be realistic in their expectations, which this judge may not be, yet. So ideally they'd show some compassion. Ending the clerkship a year early isn't the end of the world, but the reference issue is tough.)

[Anonymous User]

Hi,
Thanks so much for the replies. So the judge is letting me stay 1.5 months to complete 1 year of work. I was notified of this a few days ago. The judge does not have a bad reputation and I’m his second clerk because he’s a new judge and had extremely high expectations of me. He said he won’t provide a written reference letter and would not recommend me for another clerkship job. However I can provide his number for other types of jobs and he will provide a reference. However he said that the qualities he would mention are trustworthiness and complies with work hours and if asked directly about my writing skills “will tell the truth”. So it’s typical for judges not to provide written reference letters? Honestly the verbal reference he is willing to provide sounds pretty bad to me.

Ok, you're in a better situation than I thought. First off, really sorry about this, dude sounds like an ass. You have some good things going for you insofar as you'll get a year time on your resume and people will assume it is a year clerkship. The ideal for you now is to apply to a biglaw firm and essentially hope that they do not call your judge and ask about your writing skills and just sort of assume you're good. So, I would make sure you have a good writing sample. Don't worry a law firm will not be expecting a letter of reference from him.

[Windriver23]

Thanks for replying. So I don’t have a job lined up, but had a possible job opportunity at a big law firm where I interned. One of the partners at the firm really liked me and was aware of my two year clerkship (actually recommended me for clerkship). The issue is the partner at the firm is close friends with the judge and knew I would be there 2 years. Should I just assume the bridges have been burned at the law firm?

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for replying. So I don’t have a job lined up, but had a possible job opportunity at a big law firm where I interned. One of the partners at the firm really liked me and was aware of my two year clerkship (actually recommended me for clerkship). The issue is the partner at the firm is close friends with the judge and knew I would be there 2 years. Should I just assume the bridges have been burned at the law firm?

Ugh, this is tough again. If the partner wasn't friends with the judge, I'd say just tell them something like that after a year, you realized that you wanted to start making a biglaw salary sooner and actually start litigating yourself rather than watching other people do it. But this is absolutely a situation where the partner is likely to call up the judge.

What is your relationship with this partner like - did they like you in the sense that they saw a lot of your written work and thought it was excellent, or in the sense that they liked working with you as a person? Because if the former, it's possible that they might think the judge is being unreasonable, especially if they have any history with the judge being unrealistic/a stickler; but if the latter, maybe not. Similarly, if the judge and partner go way back and are essentially peers, the partner may be happy to disagree with the judge, but if the partner wants to impress the judge/is anxious about staying in the judge's good graces, they may feel that you not working out reflects poorly on their judgment.

(Like I used to be a teacher, and if I recommended a student for something and the student didn't work out/perform well, but I still genuinely thought they had a lot of to offer and their performance had nothing to do with me, I'd still work with/recommend that student for other things; but if I went out on a limb for a student that maybe I didn't know that well with someone I wanted to impress or needed their good opinion, and the student bombed, I might be more reluctant to promote them in future.)

Part of me wants to say that it's still worth reaching out and asking them about an opening, because I don't think you have much to lose. But given the relationship with the judge, I think you kind of have to be honest about why you're looking now, because if you fudge it at all and that gets back to the judge or the judge tells the partner the truth, that's way worse than not applying to start with. I don't *think* that telling this partner will put you in a *worse* position, because even if it means they don't want to hire you any more, I can't see them interfering with other job applications. So either way, the worst that happens is that you don't get this job, but at least you tried because who knows. But I'm open to being convinced it's a bad idea, too.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for replying. So I don’t have a job lined up, but had a possible job opportunity at a big law firm where I interned. One of the partners at the firm really liked me and was aware of my two year clerkship (actually recommended me for clerkship). The issue is the partner at the firm is close friends with the judge and knew I would be there 2 years. Should I just assume the bridges have been burned at the law firm?

Ugh, this is tough again. If the partner wasn't friends with the judge, I'd say just tell them something like that after a year, you realized that you wanted to start making a biglaw salary sooner and actually start litigating yourself rather than watching other people do it. But this is absolutely a situation where the partner is likely to call up the judge.

What is your relationship with this partner like - did they like you in the sense that they saw a lot of your written work and thought it was excellent, or in the sense that they liked working with you as a person? Because if the former, it's possible that they might think the judge is being unreasonable, especially if they have any history with the judge being unrealistic/a stickler; but if the latter, maybe not. Similarly, if the judge and partner go way back and are essentially peers, the partner may be happy to disagree with the judge, but if the partner wants to impress the judge/is anxious about staying in the judge's good graces, they may feel that you not working out reflects poorly on their judgment.

(Like I used to be a teacher, and if I recommended a student for something and the student didn't work out/perform well, but I still genuinely thought they had a lot of to offer and their performance had nothing to do with me, I'd still work with/recommend that student for other things; but if I went out on a limb for a student that maybe I didn't know that well with someone I wanted to impress or needed their good opinion, and the student bombed, I might be more reluctant to promote them in future.)

Part of me wants to say that it's still worth reaching out and asking them about an opening, because I don't think you have much to lose. But given the relationship with the judge, I think you kind of have to be honest about why you're looking now, because if you fudge it at all and that gets back to the judge or the judge tells the partner the truth, that's way worse than not applying to start with. I don't *think* that telling this partner will put you in a *worse* position, because even if it means they don't want to hire you any more, I can't see them interfering with other job applications. So either way, the worst that happens is that you don't get this job, but at least you tried because who knows. But I'm open to being convinced it's a bad idea, too.

This is good advice, that being said I sort of disagree with it based on what OP said and just want to voice that. OP described the relationship as close friends, and I fear that for OP's sake his bridge is burned with this Partner as there is no way a Partner is not going to take the side of a judge that also happens to be a close friend. Even if OP could get back into the firm, if its not a big firm idk if I want that reputation on my back. I think OP should just apply to a different firm at this point.

[Anonymous User]

This is good advice, that being said I sort of disagree with it based on what OP said and just want to voice that. OP described the relationship as close friends, and I fear that for OP's sake his bridge is burned with this Partner as there is no way a Partner is not going to take the side of a judge that also happens to be a close friend. Even if OP could get back into the firm, if its not a big firm idk if I want that reputation on my back. I think OP should just apply to a different firm at this point.

The anon you're replying to. Yeah, that's completely fair, and probably more sensible than me trying to parse out this relationship, especially since OP probably doesn't have this kind of information. I guess I can picture a universe where this job opportunity could still work out for the OP or they could at least benefit from their relationship with the partner, but you're right that it's pretty unlikely.

[lavarman84]

Do you have other recommenders who could help you? A good friend of mine had a very bad experience with a judge (for personal reasons, and this judge is known for being difficult), and due to that, my friend did not believe the judge would give him/her a positive recommendation. My friend ended up landing a great job after that clerkship by leaning on other recommenders.

[Anonymous User]

First and foremost, I am very sorry to hear about your situation. Something similar happened to me, so I understand what you are going through. I'm happy to PM personal details so I don't accidentally out myself.

My personal advice:
You should look at any paperwork provided by HR and ask if you could be allowed to "resign" instead of being "terminated." This means that you could work in the judiciary again and it would not be a black mark on any official paperwork.

If you are able to have "resigned" on your paperwork, you could work in the judiciary again. There is a chance that a future judge will not call your original judge. You should apply broadly on OSCAR (mjs, etc.) if you are interested. There will always be last minute openings for a clerk. This is a great option if you love clerking.

Don't give up! You got this! Happy to chat more over PM. I clerked for an abusive judge, but it ended up working out for me.

[Anonymous User]

First and foremost, I am very sorry to hear about your situation. Something similar happened to me, so I understand what you are going through. I'm happy to PM personal details so I don't accidentally out myself.

My personal advice:
You should look at any paperwork provided by HR and ask if you could be allowed to "resign" instead of being "terminated." This means that you could work in the judiciary again and it would not be a black mark on any official paperwork.

If you are able to have "resigned" on your paperwork, you could work in the judiciary again. There is a chance that a future judge will not call your original judge. You should apply broadly on OSCAR (mjs, etc.) if you are interested. There will always be last minute openings for a clerk. This is a great option if you love clerking.

Don't give up! You got this! Happy to chat more over PM. I clerked for an abusive judge, but it ended up working out for me.

This is great advice. Because OP will be clerking for exactly one year, it may also be possible to simply redesignate the clerkship as a standard 12-month term. It will already look on OP's resume like they did the conventional one-year clerkship, and if court HR documents also indicate this, all the better.

OP, I agree with the recommendation to go to biglaw. There is a solid chance that a large firm hiring a large class of people off clerkships won't be calling judges one by one, and will be making decisions purely on interviews and references checking out (as in chambers confirms to firm HR that you worked there--not an evaluative reference call by an attorney to the judge).

Normally I would never give this advice because I've personally found them to be useless, but this might be an example where a legal recruiter could help. Good ones will have an understanding of which firms are short-staffed on juniors and looking to bring in people off clerkships, but I always had a hard time distinguishing good ones from bad ones.

[Windriver23]

Hi thanks for the replies. To the anonymous user who said I could PM them, can you please PM me (I don’t know how to do it. Was it hard getting HR to agree to put a resignation instead of fired? Should I ask the judge if he would be willing to agree to that? I’m also concerned that most job applications ask were you fired/reason for termination and don’t want to have to put down I was fired.

[Anonymous User]

To the extent you think it's possible, I would try very hard to mediate with your judge and ask him to draw up your departure papers as completing a one-year term clerkship. The only reason the judge wouldn't is if he wants to go out of his way to be a jerk and damage your career...which is, of course, possible, but hopefully he'll see this as being in everyone's best interests.

[Anonymous User]

Based on OP's response and also the fact that 1) the judge is new and 2) has a reputation to maintain, I do have some hope here that this judge is worth talking to and working this out. Firing someone and leaving them out to dry reflects poorly on him and I think he knows that. This is all to say that I think maybe some sort of compromise can be reached here.

[Anonymous User]

Hi thanks for the replies. To the anonymous user who said I could PM them, can you please PM me (I don’t know how to do it. Was it hard getting HR to agree to put a resignation instead of fired? Should I ask the judge if he would be willing to agree to that? I’m also concerned that most job applications ask were you fired/reason for termination and don’t want to have to put down I was fired.

I will PM you but also reply publicly in the event any future clerk finds themselves in this position. In my situation my former Judge (probably knowing their conduct was abusive) gave me two options: (1) not waive my right to file a formal complaint against them but have "terminated" on my paperwork or (2) waive my right to file a formal complaint, get a severance, get a neutral recommendation, and be allowed to "resign" and have the ability to work in the judiciary again (which I went on to do). You can guess which option I took.

You should ask your judge if it the HR paperwork could say you voluntary resigned instead of that you were terminated. It is the judge's decision I believe, not HR's.

[Anonymous User]

Hi thanks for the replies. To the anonymous user who said I could PM them, can you please PM me (I don’t know how to do it. Was it hard getting HR to agree to put a resignation instead of fired? Should I ask the judge if he would be willing to agree to that? I’m also concerned that most job applications ask were you fired/reason for termination and don’t want to have to put down I was fired.

I will PM you but also reply publicly in the event any future clerk finds themselves in this position. In my situation my former Judge (probably knowing their conduct was abusive) gave me two options: (1) not waive my right to file a formal complaint against them but have "terminated" on my paperwork or (2) waive my right to file a formal complaint, get a severance, get a neutral recommendation, and be allowed to "resign" and have the ability to work in the judiciary again (which I went on to do). You can guess which option I took.

You should ask your judge if it the HR paperwork could say you voluntary resigned instead of that you were terminated. It is the judge's decision I believe, not HR's.

There’s no way that waiver is enforceable, right? If you actually filed a misconduct complaint I can’t see the Judicial Conference saying “sorry you signed a waiver.”

[Windriver23]

Hi, Human Resources informed they will put termination by mutual consent. That’s bad right? They said that is what they always put when a clerk finishes their term. Is that untrue? Help!

[Anonymous User]

Hi, Human Resources informed they will put termination by mutual consent. That’s bad right? They said that is what they always put when a clerk finishes their term. Is that untrue? Help!

That does not seem bad to me. It shows both of you agreed to part ways, not that the judge asked you to leave.

[Anonymous User]

Hi, Human Resources informed they will put termination by mutual consent. That’s bad right? They said that is what they always put when a clerk finishes their term. Is that untrue? Help!

I think that should be fine - “by mutual consent” is different from just termination. It could just mean the term ended. Also I *really* don’t think HR is going to lie to you about what that term means (why would they?).

As for the other comment about enforcement of the waiver of your right to file a misconduct complaint - why wouldn’t it be enforceable? It’s a contract supported by valid consideration They get no complaint, and you get money, a reference, and the ability to continue to work in the judiciary. Lots of employers use severance as a way to preclude future lawsuits.

One difference here may be that the judge who offered the waiver seems to have some sense that their behavior wouldn’t stand up to much scrutiny (maybe from previous complaints?). The OP’s judge may not feel that way. The question is how objectively does the OP’s work and the judge’s behavior look, especially to people reviewing misconduct complaints?

It’s obviously shitty for the OP to get fired, but I don’t think that makes it abusive, and litigating the quality of your work with a judge is probably a bad idea. If you google around for Caitlyn Clark and Judge Royal, you will find that she was a term clerk fired before the end of her term. She brought a complaint to the judicial review people alleging the firing was discrimination on the basis of her pregnancy (the career clerk made a comment about how her pregnancy would make it harder to get work out the door), but the judicial counsel got deep into the weeds of everything Clark had done through her whole term (reviewing all the parties emails, for instance) and concluded that she wasn’t handling the workload and the judge was justified in firing her because she was not good at her job.

(There’s a WaPo article summarizing the decision and various other articles link to the full judicial review opinion on the complaint.)

I’m not commenting on the merits of the decision, just offering it as an example of the risks of bringing that kind of complaint, especially if we’re talking about assessment of work product (rather than something like the shit Kozinski pulled, or straight up abuse like being yelled at, having things thrown at you, or being required to personal tasks unrelated to the work or something).

[Anonymous User]

Hi thanks for the replies. To the anonymous user who said I could PM them, can you please PM me (I don’t know how to do it. Was it hard getting HR to agree to put a resignation instead of fired? Should I ask the judge if he would be willing to agree to that? I’m also concerned that most job applications ask were you fired/reason for termination and don’t want to have to put down I was fired.

I will PM you but also reply publicly in the event any future clerk finds themselves in this position. In my situation my former Judge (probably knowing their conduct was abusive) gave me two options: (1) not waive my right to file a formal complaint against them but have "terminated" on my paperwork or (2) waive my right to file a formal complaint, get a severance, get a neutral recommendation, and be allowed to "resign" and have the ability to work in the judiciary again (which I went on to do). You can guess which option I took.

You should ask your judge if it the HR paperwork could say you voluntary resigned instead of that you were terminated. It is the judge's decision I believe, not HR's.

There’s no way that waiver is enforceable, right? If you actually filed a misconduct complaint I can’t see the Judicial Conference saying “sorry you signed a waiver.”

Even offering him severance to waive his right to file a complaint, on its own, is probably unethical (and probably fraud since it would involve lying about reasons for departure to fed govt), not even counting whatever underlying thing he was trying to hide

[Anonymous User]

Double post