Penn Clerkship Discussion/Movement Forum

[Anonymous User]

Out of respect for the "movement" forum, made another forum just for Penn people. From what we know, ie Chris' out of date spreadsheet, c/o 2024 has secured 7 clerkships (6 people, 1 person having 2 COA clerkships). I haven't been talking to a lot of people, so I don't really know who else has got something. Chris isn't the best, but I deff don't think Penn is just completely missing out on clerkships.

You can add my 1 district clerkship to this list, and still waiting on a COA. Anybody else got info

[Anonymous User]

There's been some movement from c/o 2023 folks since the spreadsheet was last updated, too.

I am not sure if it is due to graduation honors, my district court clerkship, or a better writing sample, but I got four interview offers on desirable circuits before I accepted an offer and pulled my applications. Meanwhile, when I was on plan targeting district court clerkships, I couldn't get anyone to bite for months.

My non-expert advice: keep applying, keep the faith, and if you have time flexibility and you think you'll get graduation honors, consider waiting so you can have that credential on your resume to help you get pulled out of the pile.

[Anonymous User]

Chris gets too much hate. Better to think of her as administrative support. Have heard the rumors of a screw up processing apps last year, but any criticism beyond that is misplaced. Target your frustration towards the committee and recommenders

[Anonymous User]

There's been some movement from c/o 2023 folks since the spreadsheet was last updated, too.

I am not sure if it is due to graduation honors, my district court clerkship, or a better writing sample, but I got four interview offers on desirable circuits before I accepted an offer and pulled my applications. Meanwhile, when I was on plan targeting district court clerkships, I couldn't get anyone to bite for months.

My non-expert advice: keep applying, keep the faith, and if you have time flexibility and you think you'll get graduation honors, consider waiting so you can have that credential on your resume to help you get pulled out of the pile.

Would you be comfortable sharing around which month you started seeing movement? I only have been invited once and just radio silence/rejections besides that, but I do want to keep going, I'm just wondering if interviews continue into later in the Fall

[Anonymous User]

Chris gets too much hate. Better to think of her as administrative support. Have heard the rumors of a screw up processing apps last year, but any criticism beyond that is misplaced. Target your frustration towards the committee and recommenders

Second this. There is very little she can actually do that would help students get more clerkships. The faculty is just awful with clerkship support. And they really aren’t well connected to the judiciary compared to other peer schools.

[Anonymous User]

There's been some movement from c/o 2023 folks since the spreadsheet was last updated, too.

I am not sure if it is due to graduation honors, my district court clerkship, or a better writing sample, but I got four interview offers on desirable circuits before I accepted an offer and pulled my applications. Meanwhile, when I was on plan targeting district court clerkships, I couldn't get anyone to bite for months.

My non-expert advice: keep applying, keep the faith, and if you have time flexibility and you think you'll get graduation honors, consider waiting so you can have that credential on your resume to help you get pulled out of the pile.

Would you be comfortable sharing around which month you started seeing movement? I only have been invited once and just radio silence/rejections besides that, but I do want to keep going, I'm just wondering if interviews continue into later in the Fall

If you already had one interview, you are doing better than I did! I had nothing but silence until October of 3L. Beginning in late August, I would log into Oscar each morning to check for new postings that fit my criteria. I only had a couple of applications each week, so it was quick and easy. Even after the fall, though, these things continue, just at a slower pace. I got contacted in March or April of 3L by another district court judge to interview for a 2023 clerkship because I had forgotten to withdraw my app for his chambers. I also definitely saw a few 2023 clerkships pop up in May/June as I was preparing my 2024 circuit apps. It is definitely a tougher fight, especially if you're aiming for the year after graduation, but not an impossible one.

For the circuit court clerkships, I held all my apps until graduation so I could have all my spring grades and list graduation honors. The other strategy is to send them in earlier and then update via OSCAR. However, I had heard from enough past/current clerks that they might not see the updates so I didn't want to chance it. My four interviews all came in after the plan opened.

[jmmm224]

Out of respect for the "movement" forum, made another forum just for Penn people. From what we know, ie Chris' out of date spreadsheet, c/o 2024 has secured 7 clerkships (6 people, 1 person having 2 COA clerkships). I haven't been talking to a lot of people, so I don't really know who else has got something. Chris isn't the best, but I deff don't think Penn is just completely missing out on clerkships.

You can add my 1 district clerkship to this list, and still waiting on a COA. Anybody else got info

Why do you care who else has clerkships? Celebrate your win and those of your friends, and other students’ clerkship success or lack thereof doesn’t affect you?

All for sharing advice on how to land positions from Penn but trying to track who has clerkships and how many is toxic.

[Anonymous User]

There's been some movement from c/o 2023 folks since the spreadsheet was last updated, too.

I am not sure if it is due to graduation honors, my district court clerkship, or a better writing sample, but I got four interview offers on desirable circuits before I accepted an offer and pulled my applications. Meanwhile, when I was on plan targeting district court clerkships, I couldn't get anyone to bite for months.

My non-expert advice: keep applying, keep the faith, and if you have time flexibility and you think you'll get graduation honors, consider waiting so you can have that credential on your resume to help you get pulled out of the pile.

Would you be comfortable sharing around which month you started seeing movement? I only have been invited once and just radio silence/rejections besides that, but I do want to keep going, I'm just wondering if interviews continue into later in the Fall

If you already had one interview, you are doing better than I did! I had nothing but silence until October of 3L. Beginning in late August, I would log into Oscar each morning to check for new postings that fit my criteria. I only had a couple of applications each week, so it was quick and easy. Even after the fall, though, these things continue, just at a slower pace. I got contacted in March or April of 3L by another district court judge to interview for a 2023 clerkship because I had forgotten to withdraw my app for his chambers. I also definitely saw a few 2023 clerkships pop up in May/June as I was preparing my 2024 circuit apps. It is definitely a tougher fight, especially if you're aiming for the year after graduation, but not an impossible one.

For the circuit court clerkships, I held all my apps until graduation so I could have all my spring grades and list graduation honors. The other strategy is to send them in earlier and then update via OSCAR. However, I had heard from enough past/current clerks that they might not see the updates so I didn't want to chance it. My four interviews all came in after the plan opened.

Thank you for sharing, this is very helpful! Congratulations on securing your clerkships! It gives me hope that it can work out even if takes more time.

Did you think of applying to Article I clerkships during the process? I did apply to magistrate judges, and I'm hoping that if an Art. III doesn't pan out, that I could try at least try magistrate -> Article III

[Anonymous User]

Did anyone in 2023 or 2024 (with the exception of the c/o 2023 student who got CA2 on plan last year) get any interviews in NY? Heard it's a total strikeout in NY which is insane.

[Anonymous User]

Out of respect for the "movement" forum, made another forum just for Penn people. From what we know, ie Chris' out of date spreadsheet, c/o 2024 has secured 7 clerkships (6 people, 1 person having 2 COA clerkships). I haven't been talking to a lot of people, so I don't really know who else has got something. Chris isn't the best, but I deff don't think Penn is just completely missing out on clerkships.

You can add my 1 district clerkship to this list, and still waiting on a COA. Anybody else got info

Why do you care who else has clerkships? Celebrate your win and those of your friends, and other students’ clerkship success or lack thereof doesn’t affect you?

All for sharing advice on how to land positions from Penn but trying to track who has clerkships and how many is toxic.

People like OP = why law school can be a slog

[Anonymous User]

What can I do to maximize my chances of clerking on EDPA. Not fedsoc and not from the area.

[Anonymous User]

Thank you for sharing, this is very helpful! Congratulations on securing your clerkships! It gives me hope that it can work out even if takes more time.

Did you think of applying to Article I clerkships during the process? I did apply to magistrate judges, and I'm hoping that if an Art. III doesn't pan out, that I could try at least try magistrate -> Article III

I didn't consider magistrate judges given my personal and professional considerations, but I think having any clerkship or work experience is a great way to strengthen your Article III clerkship application. Similarly, having a district court clerkship is a good way to strengthen a COA clerkship application. It was clear a number of the COA judges were only considering me because of my district court clerkship, since all their clerks had district court clerkships before coming to the judge.

The other thing to consider if you have the time is 2 year clerkships, which normally receive fewer applications. I also did not consider this because of my personal/professional considerations, but if you're already open to spending the mag year to get to the district court level, you could consider this too.

Should disclaimer again that I'm a non-expert! Just giving my humble opinion.

[Anonymous User]

What can I do to maximize my chances of clerking on EDPA. Not fedsoc and not from the area.

If you're gunning for EDPA, it's about the only time that Inn of Courts is worth your time for networking purposes.

Take any course offered by an EDPA judge (FYI Beetlestone hires from her Remedies seminar).

Network with current/past Penn -> EDPA clerks (use the spreadsheet) and find out how they got their positions. For example, McHugh always has a slot or two for Penn students, but I'm not sure if there's a faculty member he's relying on to pull folks from the pile.

Isn't Struve the one all the EDPA/3d Cir folks want to have as a recommender? Not sure, but ask around. I would imagine also that Rudovsky and Kreimer would both be very valuable because they're so known locally.

[Anonymous User]

Can we just admit the whole process is corrupt? I know so many top of the class people on Law Review who got nothing and I know several below median people who got clerkships because of their parents/families connections

[Anonymous User]

Can we just admit the whole process is corrupt? I know so many top of the class people on Law Review who got nothing and I know several below median people who got clerkships because of their parents/families connections

Law review meaningless at Penn and judges have caught on. Look at the 2023 honors list. Very loose correlation to LR.

[Anonymous User]

And why is that so???

[Anonymous User]

Can we just admit the whole process is corrupt? I know so many top of the class people on Law Review who got nothing and I know several below median people who got clerkships because of their parents/families connections

Law Review selection is more arbitrary than the clerkship application process.

[Anonymous User]

Can we just admit the whole process is corrupt? I know so many top of the class people on Law Review who got nothing and I know several below median people who got clerkships because of their parents/families connections

Law review meaningless at Penn and judges have caught on. Look at the 2023 honors list. Very loose correlation to LR.

Law Review is truly meaningless to many, probably most, judges now. It’s not even a minor boost to have it for the judges who don’t care. This isn’t just Penn it’s across the board at the top schools because selection is no longer tied to grades or even actual legal writing.

I posted this in another thread, but it’s pretty hard to take law review even remotely seriously when you see things like a T6 Magna applicant, with a pristine writing sample, who was a literal award winning journalist, not make law review.

[Anonymous User]

How active are the recommenders? Do they actually make calls? I don't think they actually are doing calls

[Anonymous User]

Can we just admit the whole process is corrupt? I know so many top of the class people on Law Review who got nothing and I know several below median people who got clerkships because of their parents/families connections

How do you even know how these people got their clerkships or what their grades were? You don’t know anyone’s grades below cum laude cutoff. Stop worrying about everyone else. The same thing happens with OCI and other jobs. If anything the clerkship process favors people who have had more interesting lives than growing up in NYC/NYC suburbs to prep school to top college to NYC big law.

[Anonymous User]

How does it favor those individuals? It's calls that get you picked off the pile. Not a life story that only comes out at an interview.

[Anonymous User]

How active are the recommenders? Do they actually make calls? I don't think they actually are doing calls

You need to talk to them about making calls. If you have no idea whether they made calls then they’re probably not making them. One of my recommenders brought it up and asked me who I wanted called. I wouldn’t just rely on highlighting your top 10 under the OCS process.

[Anonymous User]

How active are the recommenders? Do they actually make calls? I don't think they actually are doing calls

You need to talk to them about making calls. If you have no idea whether they made calls then they’re probably not making them. One of my recommenders brought it up and asked me who I wanted called. I wouldn’t just rely on highlighting your top 10 under the OCS process.

Unless your recommender tells you they're making calls, assume they aren't. You can also try to leverage profs other than your recommenders. I talked to a few profs about other topics, mentioned I was applying to clerkships, and they offered to throw in phone calls/emails for my top choices. It might be late for that now, but possible in the fall.

The fact that we get no guidance about how the clerkship committee uses the top 10 list is frustrating. In general, assume the school is doing nothing for you.

[Anonymous User]

Can we just admit the whole process is corrupt? I know so many top of the class people on Law Review who got nothing and I know several below median people who got clerkships because of their parents/families connections

How do you even know how these people got their clerkships or what their grades were? You don’t know anyone’s grades below cum laude cutoff. Stop worrying about everyone else. The same thing happens with OCI and other jobs. If anything the clerkship process favors people who have had more interesting lives than growing up in NYC/NYC suburbs to prep school to top college to NYC big law.

It’s also not “corrupt” just because you had a connection. My one friend told me he got his clerkship because he unknowingly worked for the judge’s daughter for an entire year before law school and she loved him. He didn’t even know about this connection until the interview when the judge brought it up because they have different last names. But he got the interview and ultimately the job because the judge’s daughter put in a glowing recommendation without him even knowing about it. Apparently the judge asked her daughter about him when the judge noticed the connection from the resume. Completely random freak occurrence that absolutely locked up the clerkship. Stuff like this happens more than you think.

[Anonymous User]

How does it favor those individuals? It's calls that get you picked off the pile. Not a life story that only comes out at an interview.

Resume and rec letters.