What is wrong with me? 7 Clerkship Interviews; 6 Rejections; 2 Pending Forum

[Anonymous User]

I've been applying for clerkships since late December/early January. I've interviewed with 7 judges and thus far, I have been rejected by 6 of them. I have an interview with another judge tomorrow (this will put me at .

On multiple occasions, I have made it to the final round. After I received a rejection letter from one judge, one of the clerks even reached out to me after my interview (final round) to say they appreciated my authenticity and said that they wished there was a second spot. In my experience, I have never seen a clerk do something like that. Moreover, whenever I ask for feedback, I'm told that there isn't anything I can do differently.

That being said, the rejection I received today is incredibly demoralizing, especially because it was one of my best performances in a first round interview.

Considering the rejections I have received, I find it hard to believe that I am interviewing well.

Have any current or former clerks experienced this before landing a clerkship? If so, what suggestions do you have?

[Anonymous User]

What were your stats for the positions you interviewed for. Was it like a mega reach?

[Anonymous User]

This is, unfortunately, often just the luck of the draw. I think I remember someone posting about having 11 interviews before getting a clerkship. And it's entirely likely there isn't anything you can really do differently - it's entirely possible that in each case there was just one thing they could use to pick between two excellent finalists that happened to tip to the other person. Maybe they had a slightly better GPA. Maybe the judge is inclined to like their school a little better. Maybe their recommender(s) knew the judge (or knew the judge better).

I am really curious what the clerk meant by complimenting your authenticity - that sounds to me sort of like it could be code for "not being politic," which could possibly signal something. But really, this is very unlikely to be about you doing anything wrong. I know that doesn't help at all and that me, random internet yahoo, saying that you shouldn't take it personally, means nothing, but it's true.

All that said, obviously think about your materials and your interviews and maybe hash it out with a trusted advisor-type person to make sure there isn't anything that is a problem. Especially, you distinguished between first-round and final-round interviews (I've only ever had the one-and-done kind), so think hard about the differences between interviews where you're getting cut earlier vs. later. But again, seriously, chances are good it's just bad luck at this point.

[Anonymous User]

Prob just bad luck, have several friends who were very competitive applicants but took 5+ interviews to get a clerkship

Would be more indicative of a problem if you had credentials but werent getting interviews

[Anonymous User]

I've been applying for clerkships since late December/early January. I've interviewed with 7 judges and thus far, I have been rejected by 6 of them. I have an interview with another judge tomorrow (this will put me at .

On multiple occasions, I have made it to the final round. After I received a rejection letter from one judge, one of the clerks even reached out to me after my interview (final round) to say they appreciated my authenticity and said that they wished there was a second spot. In my experience, I have never seen a clerk do something like that. Moreover, whenever I ask for feedback, I'm told that there isn't anything I can do differently.

That being said, the rejection I received today is incredibly demoralizing, especially because it was one of my best performances in a first round interview.

Considering the rejections I have received, I find it hard to believe that I am interviewing well.

Have any current or former clerks experienced this before landing a clerkship? If so, what suggestions do you have?

I have never heard of this happening (and the authenticity remark strikes as odd)... can you elaborate at all?

If you're making it to final rounds, I wouldn't think you're interviewing poorly. It's all so idiosyncratic.

[Anonymous User]

That comment makes it seem like you are either being too casual in your interviews or are coming across as a weirdo.

[Anonymous User]

Current double clerk here: I've done a lot of interviewing on both sides of the desk. I'm sorry that you are feeling so dispirited and I totally understand where you are coming from - it really sucks to keep not getting a job you want and not knowing why or how to improve your chances.

All that said, it's impossible to know based on your original post. There are (as I see it) at least two possibilities - maybe more.

(1) You are a bad interviewer and can improve your results with external feedback. This possibility, I bet, is the one you are nervous about. Well, maybe its true but we need more data. How did you do at OCI? How would you describe your social circle? Do you make friends easily?

[Note: don't actually answer these questions but these are the kinds of things you should be honest with yourself about or ask someone you trust to be candid to answer for you]

(2) You are a good (maybe even great) fit but not the best fit. You are clearly qualified because you have gotten some many interviews! I think people approach clerkship hiring like OCI when its not. In OCI, law firms need bodies to fill seats. In clerk hiring, its much more selective. My COA judge - in a non-prestige circuit - can very very very picky. She can afford to pass over as many magna HLS grads as she wants in favor of a summa state school grad. For her, its about fit with her and about building a balanced class. For instance, she won't hire more than one kid per school per year. She prefers to have a balanced 2/2 split gender wise. She also prefers a balance of experience (corporate, admin, law professor type, criminal, etc). All that to say, you might be the number 2 or number 3 out of 5 (or 10) interviewees and you STILL wouldn't get picked. In that scenario, there is nothing to improve, you just need to keep buying lottery tickets. I wouldn't be surprised if it took you up to 10 or 15 interviews. (If that seems high, remember that people rarely talk about the clerkships they DIDN'T get. So if you see some random double clerk on a firm website, you know they were successful twice but you don't know how many).

All that to say, I have no idea which scenario describes you (or maybe some other scenario entirely) but I thought I'd share some inside baseball perspective.

Don't give up - the only person who can ensure you don't get a clerkship is you (and probably David Lat if you piss him off).

[Anonymous User]

Where'd OP go?

[Anonymous User]

Current double clerk here: I've done a lot of interviewing on both sides of the desk. I'm sorry that you are feeling so dispirited and I totally understand where you are coming from - it really sucks to keep not getting a job you want and not knowing why or how to improve your chances.

All that said, it's impossible to know based on your original post. There are (as I see it) at least two possibilities - maybe more.

(1) You are a bad interviewer and can improve your results with external feedback. This possibility, I bet, is the one you are nervous about. Well, maybe its true but we need more data. How did you do at OCI? How would you describe your social circle? Do you make friends easily?

[Note: don't actually answer these questions but these are the kinds of things you should be honest with yourself about or ask someone you trust to be candid to answer for you]

(2) You are a good (maybe even great) fit but not the best fit. You are clearly qualified because you have gotten some many interviews! I think people approach clerkship hiring like OCI when its not. In OCI, law firms need bodies to fill seats. In clerk hiring, its much more selective. My COA judge - in a non-prestige circuit - can very very very picky. She can afford to pass over as many magna HLS grads as she wants in favor of a summa state school grad. For her, its about fit with her and about building a balanced class. For instance, she won't hire more than one kid per school per year. She prefers to have a balanced 2/2 split gender wise. She also prefers a balance of experience (corporate, admin, law professor type, criminal, etc). All that to say, you might be the number 2 or number 3 out of 5 (or 10) interviewees and you STILL wouldn't get picked. In that scenario, there is nothing to improve, you just need to keep buying lottery tickets. I wouldn't be surprised if it took you up to 10 or 15 interviews. (If that seems high, remember that people rarely talk about the clerkships they DIDN'T get. So if you see some random double clerk on a firm website, you know they were successful twice but you don't know how many).

All that to say, I have no idea which scenario describes you (or maybe some other scenario entirely) but I thought I'd share some inside baseball perspective.

Don't give up - the only person who can ensure you don't get a clerkship is you (and probably David Lat if you piss him off).

Want to echo this. I'm clerking in a similar situation and doing interviews. Decent grades + school is just a screening mechanism, a minimum qualification. Beyond that, it really comes down to fit, how well you're able to articulate legal concepts/ideas and speak about yourself and your interests, and of course writing (we do really detailed reviews of writing samples and it's actually pretty rare to come across a good one. Many think they write well enough but they don't--you should be spending a ton of time getting your writing sample in great shape. But you're getting interviews so presumably yours is at least OK).

[Anonymous User]

OP here, all of these comments are certainly helpful. Regarding the reach point, my clerkship advisors have basically told me to apply everywhere. They think I'm competitive for CDCA, NDCA, EDNY, EDVA, etc. However, I'm applying everywhere.

I asked for feedback from the most recent rejection, but they did not respond.

I had a one-and-done interview yesterday with a judge; I think it went well, but who knows. I really felt like I clicked a lot more with this judge than any others I have interviewed with. I made him and the career clerks laugh, which I have been told is a good thing.

I'm just so exhausted at this point.

[Anonymous User]

OP here, all of these comments are certainly helpful. Regarding the reach point, my clerkship advisors have basically told me to apply everywhere. They think I'm competitive for CDCA, NDCA, EDNY, EDVA, etc. However, I'm applying everywhere.

I asked for feedback from the most recent rejection, but they did not respond.

I had a one-and-done interview yesterday with a judge; I think it went well, but who knows. I really felt like I clicked a lot more with this judge than any others I have interviewed with. I made him and the career clerks laugh, which I have been told is a good thing.

I'm just so exhausted at this point.

Can we have a little more information because they think I am competitive for CDCA/NDCA/EDNY/EDVA is hard to build a frame of reference? This is especially true with some clerkship offices being overly optimistic and some clerkship offices being overly pessimistic. For some perspective in case you do not want to share personal information, I would consider a top 10% at CLS and NYU as competitive for EDNY, but by no means a shoo in. Now take that information and see where you fall in (i.e., are you top 25% at lower T14 in which case your office was overly optimistic).

[Anonymous User]

OP here, all of these comments are certainly helpful. Regarding the reach point, my clerkship advisors have basically told me to apply everywhere. They think I'm competitive for CDCA, NDCA, EDNY, EDVA, etc. However, I'm applying everywhere.

I asked for feedback from the most recent rejection, but they did not respond.

I had a one-and-done interview yesterday with a judge; I think it went well, but who knows. I really felt like I clicked a lot more with this judge than any others I have interviewed with. I made him and the career clerks laugh, which I have been told is a good thing.

I'm just so exhausted at this point.

Can we have a little more information because they think I am competitive for CDCA/NDCA/EDNY/EDVA is hard to build a frame of reference? This is especially true with some clerkship offices being overly optimistic and some clerkship offices being overly pessimistic. For some perspective in case you do not want to share personal information, I would consider a top 10% at CLS and NYU as competitive for EDNY, but by no means a shoo in. Now take that information and see where you fall in (i.e., are you top 25% at lower T14 in which case your office was overly optimistic).

I’m not certain this is all that relevant here? For an applicant to get this many interviews, they’re definitely qualified. Generally, judges don’t bother interviewing someone they don’t think can do the job. Closest thing to an exception I can think of is that I knew someone with a PhD who went to a regional school, excelled, and got a bunch of interviews with judges in their local competitive district who were intrigued by their PhD but “all my clerks come from Yale” and this person lost out to the Yalies. So in theory, OP could have some really unusual qualification or background where judges are interviewing out of curiosity, I suppose.

But really, someone getting this many interviews probably isn’t a stretch candidate.

[Anonymous User]

OP here, all of these comments are certainly helpful. Regarding the reach point, my clerkship advisors have basically told me to apply everywhere. They think I'm competitive for CDCA, NDCA, EDNY, EDVA, etc. However, I'm applying everywhere.

I asked for feedback from the most recent rejection, but they did not respond.

I had a one-and-done interview yesterday with a judge; I think it went well, but who knows. I really felt like I clicked a lot more with this judge than any others I have interviewed with. I made him and the career clerks laugh, which I have been told is a good thing.

I'm just so exhausted at this point.

Can we have a little more information because they think I am competitive for CDCA/NDCA/EDNY/EDVA is hard to build a frame of reference? This is especially true with some clerkship offices being overly optimistic and some clerkship offices being overly pessimistic. For some perspective in case you do not want to share personal information, I would consider a top 10% at CLS and NYU as competitive for EDNY, but by no means a shoo in. Now take that information and see where you fall in (i.e., are you top 25% at lower T14 in which case your office was overly optimistic).

I’m not certain this is all that relevant here? For an applicant to get this many interviews, they’re definitely qualified. Generally, judges don’t bother interviewing someone they don’t think can do the job. Closest thing to an exception I can think of is that I knew someone with a PhD who went to a regional school, excelled, and got a bunch of interviews with judges in their local competitive district who were intrigued by their PhD but “all my clerks come from Yale” and this person lost out to the Yalies. So in theory, OP could have some really unusual qualification or background where judges are interviewing out of curiosity, I suppose.

But really, someone getting this many interviews probably isn’t a stretch candidate.

There are a lot of chambers that will interview candidates and be much harsher depending on their credentials. Similarly, if he is potentially not that competitive he could be landing interviews with the type of judges that interview a ton of candidates (and thus dip lower in the pool) as opposed to the judges that interview 5 people and take 3 of them.

[Anonymous User]

OP here, all of these comments are certainly helpful. Regarding the reach point, my clerkship advisors have basically told me to apply everywhere. They think I'm competitive for CDCA, NDCA, EDNY, EDVA, etc. However, I'm applying everywhere.

I asked for feedback from the most recent rejection, but they did not respond.

I had a one-and-done interview yesterday with a judge; I think it went well, but who knows. I really felt like I clicked a lot more with this judge than any others I have interviewed with. I made him and the career clerks laugh, which I have been told is a good thing.

I'm just so exhausted at this point.

Can we have a little more information because they think I am competitive for CDCA/NDCA/EDNY/EDVA is hard to build a frame of reference? This is especially true with some clerkship offices being overly optimistic and some clerkship offices being overly pessimistic. For some perspective in case you do not want to share personal information, I would consider a top 10% at CLS and NYU as competitive for EDNY, but by no means a shoo in. Now take that information and see where you fall in (i.e., are you top 25% at lower T14 in which case your office was overly optimistic).

I’m not certain this is all that relevant here? For an applicant to get this many interviews, they’re definitely qualified. Generally, judges don’t bother interviewing someone they don’t think can do the job. Closest thing to an exception I can think of is that I knew someone with a PhD who went to a regional school, excelled, and got a bunch of interviews with judges in their local competitive district who were intrigued by their PhD but “all my clerks come from Yale” and this person lost out to the Yalies. So in theory, OP could have some really unusual qualification or background where judges are interviewing out of curiosity, I suppose.

But really, someone getting this many interviews probably isn’t a stretch candidate.

There are a lot of chambers that will interview candidates and be much harsher depending on their credentials. Similarly, if he is potentially not that competitive he could be landing interviews with the type of judges that interview a ton of candidates (and thus dip lower in the pool) as opposed to the judges that interview 5 people and take 3 of them.

Yes, it’s true that chambers can be harsher on candidates with weaker credentials, but I still don’t think that this person’s credentials are likely to be an issue. Even if a judge interviews “a ton” of candidates, they don’t really have to “dip lower” because the pools are so competitive to begin with.

But mostly it just seems statistically improbable that the OP has encountered 8 such judges.

(I should add that no, it’s not impossible that the OP’s credentials are a problem. Even if they are, though, there’s not much they can do about them now.)

[Anonymous User]

With 8 interviews, credentials are certainly not the problem at this point.

[Anonymous User]

I would definitely do a mock interview with your OCI office and see what red flags you may be sending up--not that you are, but it seems like from one clerk's reaction to you that you at least have a unique interviewing style.

As a clerk who has interviewed many lovely candidates, it might just be all the other things discussed--that the judges are looking for a personality fit because frankly, you will be spending a lot of time with them, or the school/demographics aren't what the judge is looking for, which is out of your control, but considering the number of interviews, I wouldn't be too disheartened by that.

As a clerk who has interviewed many candidates who look great on paper and interview terribly, you should really have a mock interview with your OCI and a frank conversation about what signals you are sending out. It might be that you're sending up red flags and not knowing it.

[Anonymous User]

I would definitely do a mock interview with your OCI office and see what red flags you may be sending up--not that you are, but it seems like from one clerk's reaction to you that you at least have a unique interviewing style.

As a clerk who has interviewed many lovely candidates, it might just be all the other things discussed--that the judges are looking for a personality fit because frankly, you will be spending a lot of time with them, or the school/demographics aren't what the judge is looking for, which is out of your control, but considering the number of interviews, I wouldn't be too disheartened by that.

As a clerk who has interviewed many candidates who look great on paper and interview terribly, you should really have a mock interview with your OCI and a frank conversation about what signals you are sending out. It might be that you're sending up red flags and not knowing it.

What was a common red flag for you?

[Anonymous User]

I would definitely do a mock interview with your OCI office and see what red flags you may be sending up--not that you are, but it seems like from one clerk's reaction to you that you at least have a unique interviewing style.

As a clerk who has interviewed many lovely candidates, it might just be all the other things discussed--that the judges are looking for a personality fit because frankly, you will be spending a lot of time with them, or the school/demographics aren't what the judge is looking for, which is out of your control, but considering the number of interviews, I wouldn't be too disheartened by that.

As a clerk who has interviewed many candidates who look great on paper and interview terribly, you should really have a mock interview with your OCI and a frank conversation about what signals you are sending out. It might be that you're sending up red flags and not knowing it.

OP here, I have done mock interviews with my OCI; they have been pretty useless in the sense that they tell me my answers are good. I just don't know why my answers haven't been good enough.

Regarding the comment from the one clerk, I think it's more that I was honest about certain pieces of my family background that are somewhat stigmatized.

The judge I interviewed with last week said he would be making a decision this week. I really thought that interview went extremely well, but considering that I have not heard anything and it is Friday, it seems unlikely that I will be selected.

[lavarman84]

OP here, I have done mock interviews with my OCI; they have been pretty useless in the sense that they tell me my answers are good. I just don't know why my answers haven't been good enough.

Regarding the comment from the one clerk, I think it's more that I was honest about certain pieces of my family background that are somewhat stigmatized.

The judge I interviewed with last week said he would be making a decision this week. I really thought that interview went extremely well, but considering that I have not heard anything and it is Friday, it seems unlikely that I will be selected.

It's a very idiosyncratic process. Have you spoken with prior clerks before interviewing with the judges?

[Anonymous User]

OP here, I have done mock interviews with my OCI; they have been pretty useless in the sense that they tell me my answers are good. I just don't know why my answers haven't been good enough.

Regarding the comment from the one clerk, I think it's more that I was honest about certain pieces of my family background that are somewhat stigmatized.

The judge I interviewed with last week said he would be making a decision this week. I really thought that interview went extremely well, but considering that I have not heard anything and it is Friday, it seems unlikely that I will be selected.

It's a very idiosyncratic process. Have you spoken with prior clerks before interviewing with the judges?

OP, again.
Unfortunately, most of the judges I have interviewed with are newly confirmed judges, meaning there are no prior clerks.

[nixy]

OP here, I have done mock interviews with my OCI; they have been pretty useless in the sense that they tell me my answers are good. I just don't know why my answers haven't been good enough.

Regarding the comment from the one clerk, I think it's more that I was honest about certain pieces of my family background that are somewhat stigmatized.

The judge I interviewed with last week said he would be making a decision this week. I really thought that interview went extremely well, but considering that I have not heard anything and it is Friday, it seems unlikely that I will be selected.

It's a very idiosyncratic process. Have you spoken with prior clerks before interviewing with the judges?

OP, again.
Unfortunately, most of the judges I have interviewed with are newly confirmed judges, meaning there are no prior clerks.

That could help explain your success rate - many newly confirmed judges like to hire experienced clerks if they can.