When to tell firm? Forum
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting
Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are sharing sensitive information about clerkship applications and clerkship hiring. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.
Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned."
Anonymous Posting
Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are sharing sensitive information about clerkship applications and clerkship hiring. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.
Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned."
-
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:02 pm
When to tell firm?
2014 grad, clerking now at SSC, returning to firm in the fall. have secured 2016 clerkship. do I tell firm now, or wait til I get there?
- sundance95
- Posts: 2123
- Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:44 pm
Re: When to tell firm?
Is the firm biglaw?
- seizmaar
- Posts: 759
- Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:58 pm
Re: When to tell firm?
the answer is always "now"
-
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:02 pm
Re: When to tell firm?
yessundance95 wrote:Is the firm biglaw?
why?the answer is always "now"
- sundance95
- Posts: 2123
- Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:44 pm
Re: When to tell firm?
Even if firm is a regional firm with few juniors that might decide that having someone around for just a year isn't worth the 170K?seizmaar wrote:the answer is always "now"
Want to continue reading?
Register now to search topics and post comments!
Absolutely FREE!
Already a member? Login
- sundance95
- Posts: 2123
- Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:44 pm
Re: When to tell firm?
If biglaw, I think you're fine telling them now. They might not love the fact that your first three years are clerk-firm-clerk but unlikely they'll shitcan you.
That said, I can see a case for waiting until the clerkship bonus check clears.
That said, I can see a case for waiting until the clerkship bonus check clears.
- los blancos
- Posts: 8397
- Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:18 pm
Re: When to tell firm?
Yeah I second this q. Some firms might shitcan you if they don't think you want to be there long term.sundance95 wrote:Even if firm is a regional firm with few juniors that might decide that having someone around for just a year isn't worth the 170K?seizmaar wrote:the answer is always "now"
OP, I might ask your new judge what s/he thinks.
-
- Posts: 428567
- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am
Re: When to tell firm?
No experience here (I have yet to tell my firm about my 2016 clerkship) but can't imagine it's always a good idea for now. There are absolutely places that would/could can you--particularly if they are looking to cut associates, for whatever reason, the least amount of damage would someone who has already secured another position.
- rpupkin
- Posts: 5653
- Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:32 pm
Re: When to tell firm?
The legal world is small. It's not unlikely that your 2016 judge, or a current clerk of your 2016 judge, will end up at a conference or social event that is also attended by a lawyer or lawyers from your firm. Your name could easily come up in a conversation: "Oh, you're at Smith & Smith....one of your associates, Johnny McClerksalot, is clerking with me next year."
This kind of thing happens all the time. If you don't tell the firm yourself, there's a real risk that they'll find out from someone else.
This kind of thing happens all the time. If you don't tell the firm yourself, there's a real risk that they'll find out from someone else.
- Johann
- Posts: 19704
- Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:25 pm
Re: When to tell firm?
there is no benefit to telling them now. if you tell them later, even if they can you, at least you got some experience.
the anser is actually always as late as possible. i wouldnt even consider this at least until this time 2016.
the anser is actually always as late as possible. i wouldnt even consider this at least until this time 2016.
- rpupkin
- Posts: 5653
- Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:32 pm
Re: When to tell firm?
This is poor advice. Unless you're eager to completely close the door on returning to your firm, you should not wait until March of 2016 (or later) to tell the firm about a clerkship you've had in hand for over a year. You also run the risk of irking your judge if he or she finds out that you kept your clerkship from your firm.JohannDeMann wrote:there is no benefit to telling them now. if you tell them later, even if they can you, at least you got some experience.
the anser is actually always as late as possible. i wouldnt even consider this at least until this time 2016.
You don't necessarily have to tell your firm right now, but I don't think it's a good idea to wait until a few months or weeks before you leave.
- los blancos
- Posts: 8397
- Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:18 pm
Re: When to tell firm?
Can we all agree that if one wants/needs to keep the firm in the dark, the Judge should probably know about it?
- Johann
- Posts: 19704
- Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:25 pm
Re: When to tell firm?
I wouldn't agree with that either. I just don't think it's necessary. The thing is if it irks them that you're leaving to go back and do a clerkship, it's going to irk regardless of if yo ugive them 6 months notice or 1.5 years. The only difference is in one situation you give them a nice 6 month opportunity to replace you and the other it's easier for them to have you keep coming in every day than find someone else. So it basically guarantees you 1 year of private firm pracitce work which should be enough to bounce back and get a job if you get fired.
OP could be fucked if tells firm now and gets canned and then has trouble finding a job for a year because firms dont want to hire temp help. There is no good that can come from telling them now that won't come from telling them in one year time.
OP could be fucked if tells firm now and gets canned and then has trouble finding a job for a year because firms dont want to hire temp help. There is no good that can come from telling them now that won't come from telling them in one year time.
Register now!
Resources to assist law school applicants, students & graduates.
It's still FREE!
Already a member? Login
-
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:36 pm
Re: When to tell firm?
I agree with this completely. I have clerked on the CoA and will clerk on D.Ct. level, and I have had to navigate this recently. In terms of self-interest, in most cases, there is no substantial benefit in notifying a Big Law firm with more than a year's notice. As JohannDeMann mentioned, the potential for negative consequences significantly outweigh the benefits (which, again, I'm not sure what that would be). Even if the firm is cool with it, you will risk getting staffed on more short-term, less substantive projects for the entire year. Instead, if you give them say 6 months' notice, then that's more than enough time for them to hire a new associate and ample time to phase you out on long-term projects (which will happen no matter when you notify them of your intent to leave).JohannDeMann wrote:I wouldn't agree with that either. I just don't think it's necessary. The thing is if it irks them that you're leaving to go back and do a clerkship, it's going to irk regardless of if yo ugive them 6 months notice or 1.5 years. The only difference is in one situation you give them a nice 6 month opportunity to replace you and the other it's easier for them to have you keep coming in every day than find someone else. So it basically guarantees you 1 year of private firm pracitce work which should be enough to bounce back and get a job if you get fired.
OP could be fucked if tells firm now and gets canned and then has trouble finding a job for a year because firms dont want to hire temp help. There is no good that can come from telling them now that won't come from telling them in one year time.
Moreover, in what other context would this ever be okay? If you were lateraling to another firm or government service, it would be preposterous to tell them a year in advance that you were planning on leaving. Big Law firms are run by adults and they treat their associates as such (mostly). You don't "owe" them (contractually or otherwise) a year's notice.
Lastly, I actually don't think most Big Law firms would actually care that much. Mine encouraged me to pursue an additional clerkship. Nonetheless, I didn't tell them my specific plans so far in advance (in fact, my Hiring Manager said to just give us a few month's heads up). Moreover, you don't know what can happen in between that time (e.g., my co-worker's future judge suddenly resigned).
- rpupkin
- Posts: 5653
- Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:32 pm
Re: When to tell firm?
No big law firm wants the following conversation to occur:JohannDeMann wrote:OP could be fucked if tells firm now and gets canned and then has trouble finding a job for a year because firms dont want to hire temp help.
2016 Clerk: Hey judge, sorry to bother you, but do you think you could you help me find a job for 2015-16?
Federal Judge: I thought you were working at Sidley in 2015. What happened?
2016 Clerk: Oh, when I told them I was going to clerk for you next year, they fired me.
The OP is not going to get "canned" because he is leaving in a year to clerk for a federal judge.
- rpupkin
- Posts: 5653
- Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:32 pm
Re: When to tell firm?
I agree with you insofar as there is no affirmative "substantial benefit" in notifying the firm a year out. You're right that it can change the work you get and the matters you get staffed on. But this isn't about improving your temporary life at the firm; it's about avoiding an awkward situation that unnecessarily harms your reputation with both the firm and the judge.elipad wrote: I agree with this completely. I have clerked on the CoA and will clerk on D.Ct. level, and I have had to navigate this recently. In terms of self-interest, in most cases, there is no substantial benefit in notifying a Big Law firm with more than a year's notice.
I was a COA clerk as well. My judge socialized with many who worked in big law, and he often spoke at conferences and events. If I started working at a big law firm in the year before my clerkship without telling anyone at the firm about my clerkship, and if my judge found that out, he would wonder what the fuck I was thinking. It's just weird.
-
- Posts: 428567
- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am
Re: When to tell firm?
I suppose this is just as idiosyncratic as everything else then. Aside from this seeming like a really weird notion, one of the first things my judge asked me was if I was informing the firm. When I said I had yet to he noted it was probably a good idea to wait (I accepted 18 months out). Similarly, a partner who spoke to the judge for me asked if I had told people at the firm that I accepted and I said not yet. He also replied "I wouldn't. You'll likely have some staffing problems and when people are slow you'll be last in line."rpupkin wrote:I agree with you insofar as there is no affirmative "substantial benefit" in notifying the firm a year out. You're right that it can change the work you get and the matters you get staffed on. But this isn't about improving your temporary life at the firm; it's about avoiding an awkward situation that unnecessarily harms your reputation with both the firm and the judge.elipad wrote: I agree with this completely. I have clerked on the CoA and will clerk on D.Ct. level, and I have had to navigate this recently. In terms of self-interest, in most cases, there is no substantial benefit in notifying a Big Law firm with more than a year's notice.
I was a COA clerk as well. My judge socialized with many who worked in big law, and he often spoke at conferences and events. If I started working at a big law firm in the year before my clerkship without telling anyone at the firm about my clerkship, and if my judge found that out, he would wonder what the fuck I was thinking. It's just weird.
I don't doubt the veracity of the above, but I think for 90%+ of the people this would bean extremely paranoid and strange thought. My department of my office isn't that big--more akin to a mid size firm--and to pretend that the partners know or even care what every associate is planning on would be to delude myself.
Get unlimited access to all forums and topics
Register now!
I'm pretty sure I told you it's FREE...
Already a member? Login
- rpupkin
- Posts: 5653
- Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:32 pm
Re: When to tell firm?
This story doesn't surprise me. But the thing is, you talked to your judge about it. And you talked to a partner at your firm about it. There's no issue here if the judge knows about (and is fine with) a "I'm not going to tell anyone till the last minute about my clerkship" approach.Anonymous User wrote:I suppose this is just as idiosyncratic as everything else then. Aside from this seeming like a really weird notion, one of the first things my judge asked me was if I was informing the firm. When I said I had yet to he noted it was probably a good idea to wait (I accepted 18 months out). Similarly, a partner who spoke to the judge for me asked if I had told people at the firm that I accepted and I said not yet. He also replied "I wouldn't. You'll likely have some staffing problems and when people are slow you'll be last in line."
-
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:02 pm
Re: When to tell firm?
Wow thanks all for the great thoughts and discussion. I'm certainly not going to wait until the last minute. My thinking was that I don't really want to call attention to myself unnecessarily/give partners something else to think about/pretend they care what I'm doing with my life before I even arrive at the firm. A lot can change between now and then. I was thinking I'd let my firm know within the first couple months. But I'll probably talk to my judge and see what they think. Thanks guys.
-
- Posts: 428567
- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am
Re: When to tell firm?
Slightly different but related question - What about when to tell your SA firm? Should I wait until I get there this summer, or email/ call now?
- rpupkin
- Posts: 5653
- Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:32 pm
Re: When to tell firm?
So you're summering in 2015 and then clerking in 2016-17? It's fine to wait until this summer.Anonymous User wrote:Slightly different but related question - What about when to tell your SA firm? Should I wait until I get there this summer, or email/ call now?
Communicate now with those who not only know what a legal education is, but can offer you worthy advice and commentary as you complete the three most educational, yet challenging years of your law related post graduate life.
Register now, it's still FREE!
Already a member? Login
-
- Posts: 1027
- Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2010 1:35 am
Re: When to tell firm?
Why are people expressing concern about someone being canned? Unless the firm will never appear in front of that judge, I think it is highly unlikely that they would fire the associate. The major concern is that the firm will not staff the clerk on longer term cases or may give the clerk menial tasks. But firing, I doubt it.
- Dafaq
- Posts: 354
- Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:19 pm
Re: When to tell firm?
When we were offered the firm said that if we wanted to clerk, that was okay. They actually said it in such a way that I thought they were encouraging a clerkship. A few of the offered did go and clerk. So, best tell them asap.
-
- Posts: 428567
- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am
Re: When to tell firm?
What, hold the phone, we're supposed to give a firm 6 months notice before we jump ship for another gig?? They can and do Latham us to the curb all the time, and at a moment's notice, with or without a severance package. My impression was that we owe the amoral biglaw machine absolutely no duty outside of maybe a two weeks notice--is that not true? Or is this advice solely geared at someone who's leaving the firm temporarily and is interested in returning to the grind after their temp gig is up.elipad wrote:I agree with this completely. I have clerked on the CoA and will clerk on D.Ct. level, and I have had to navigate this recently. In terms of self-interest, in most cases, there is no substantial benefit in notifying a Big Law firm with more than a year's notice. As JohannDeMann mentioned, the potential for negative consequences significantly outweigh the benefits (which, again, I'm not sure what that would be). Even if the firm is cool with it, you will risk getting staffed on more short-term, less substantive projects for the entire year. Instead, if you give them say 6 months' notice, then that's more than enough time for them to hire a new associate and ample time to phase you out on long-term projects (which will happen no matter when you notify them of your intent to leave).JohannDeMann wrote:I wouldn't agree with that either. I just don't think it's necessary. The thing is if it irks them that you're leaving to go back and do a clerkship, it's going to irk regardless of if yo ugive them 6 months notice or 1.5 years. The only difference is in one situation you give them a nice 6 month opportunity to replace you and the other it's easier for them to have you keep coming in every day than find someone else. So it basically guarantees you 1 year of private firm pracitce work which should be enough to bounce back and get a job if you get fired.
OP could be fucked if tells firm now and gets canned and then has trouble finding a job for a year because firms dont want to hire temp help. There is no good that can come from telling them now that won't come from telling them in one year time.
Moreover, in what other context would this ever be okay? If you were lateraling to another firm or government service, it would be preposterous to tell them a year in advance that you were planning on leaving. Big Law firms are run by adults and they treat their associates as such (mostly). You don't "owe" them (contractually or otherwise) a year's notice.
Lastly, I actually don't think most Big Law firms would actually care that much. Mine encouraged me to pursue an additional clerkship. Nonetheless, I didn't tell them my specific plans so far in advance (in fact, my Hiring Manager said to just give us a few month's heads up). Moreover, you don't know what can happen in between that time (e.g., my co-worker's future judge suddenly resigned).
-
- Posts: 11413
- Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:54 pm
Re: When to tell firm?
I think that it's important to be upfront & honest with your firm as soon as possible for a couple of reasons:
1) So you don't burn your future relationship with this firm in the future & get lukewarm or poor reference in the future &
2) To avoid being assigned work on a case that may appear before the judge for whom you'll be clerking & cause a conflict issue.
1) So you don't burn your future relationship with this firm in the future & get lukewarm or poor reference in the future &
2) To avoid being assigned work on a case that may appear before the judge for whom you'll be clerking & cause a conflict issue.
Seriously? What are you waiting for?
Now there's a charge.
Just kidding ... it's still FREE!
Already a member? Login