WUSTL Class of 2016 Forum

[Unoriginalist]

Hey all,

Figured I'd get the ball rolling for Wash U's latest class. Who all is heading to ASW?

Quick Links:
WUSTL Taking Questions Thread http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4&t=130775

WUSTL Application Cycle Thread http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 7&t=198546

[Xs20]

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[alwayssunnyinfl]

Tagging this. Looking forward to scholarship decisions, but since I'm pretty sure I've struck out with the T14, this is most likely where I'll end up.

[Jaqen]

How was ASD?

[mwhitley]

Anyone attending the ASD in March?

[Xs20]

How was ASD?

ASD was awesome. I wrote a little bit about it in the applicants thread, but visiting there definitely sold me on WUSTL. I can't say enough about the staff; everyone in the admissions office was super nice and welcoming, the presentation from the CSO office was extremely helpful and candid, and the law school building (and campus as a whole) is incredible. They actually made an effort to get to know us and make us feel like we belonged there, which is a lot more than I can say about other schools I've visited. Definitely go to the ASD in March if you get a chance.

[ks2499]

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[DoveBodyWash]

WHY WAS I NOT TOLD ABOUT THIS.

Anyway, looking forward to all the "WUSTL with $ or T-14 sticker" threads that'll be popping up once scholly offers go out.

Pick-up basketball or volleyball is a must if I end up attending.

[alwayssunnyinfl]

Pick-up basketball or volleyball is a must if I end up attending.

Is this a St. Louis thing? I need to find new hobbies since most of my current ones involve the beach.

[DoveBodyWash]

Pick-up basketball or volleyball is a must if I end up attending.

Is this a St. Louis thing? I need to find new hobbies since most of my current ones involve the beach.

lol it's a kids-who-go-to-colleges-in-the-middle-of-nowhere thing

But I am gonna push hard for some kind of intramural activity just so we can bond as a class. I think a B-school v. Law school type of thing would be fun/good for networking.

EDIT: Didn't mean to derail the conversation from more relevant topics

[Unoriginalist]

But I am gonna push hard for some kind of intramural activity just so we can bond as a class. I think a B-school v. Law school type of thing would be fun/good for networking.

That sounds like a great idea. Are those lacking athletic ability invited?

Also, question for those who went to ASD: is there any particular net gain from going to ASD rather than just visiting the campus? I'm visiting this week, but wasn't planning on going to the March ASD unless there was something I'd be missing.

[Xs20]

Intramurals would be awesome. I'm terrible at basketball but I'd definitely be down for softball or volleyball. At ASD I think I remember one of the current students saying that the law and med school students have social functions together sometimes.

[DoveBodyWash]

But I am gonna push hard for some kind of intramural activity just so we can bond as a class. I think a B-school v. Law school type of thing would be fun/good for networking.

That sounds like a great idea. Are those lacking athletic ability invited?

Also, question for those who went to ASD: is there any particular net gain from going to ASD rather than just visiting the campus? I'm visiting this week, but wasn't planning on going to the March ASD unless there was something I'd be missing.

I can't actually play basketball for real..so yes..those lacking athletic ability are preferred

I didn't go to ASD last year but I did go on a scheduled visit on my own, so I'll post my thoughts here so you can compare it to those who went to ASD (since there probably aren't people that did both)

-Got a tour of the law building
-Had a sit-down meeting with Rebecca Brown from CSO...she went over my resume and talked about CSO efforts
-Got one of those meal cards..and got lunch at the law school cafe
-Sat in on a criminal law class. Kids were super friendly...Except one of them told me to run away from law school and never look back
-Sat in Dean Clifford's office for an hour or so just to talk about my other law school options, job placement, St. Louis market, and scholarship negotiations
-Met another dean (i forget who) to find out more about their grade curve
-Raided the bookstore and bought one of those WashU Law hoodies and a t-shirt...only to have Dean Clifford give me a free t-shirt before I left. FYI we (someone) are designing a new hoodie. The law school's representation in the campus bookstore is pathetic.

I'd imagine some of the benefits of ASD would be
-Structured events, so you get to meet more people
-meet potential classmates

But in general I think the admissions office will do everything they can to make sure you get a good feel of the school and introduce you to relevant people. But be proactive and ask a lot of honest/blunt questions, particularly about job placement. They're used to it and it's your future so no need to feel bad about anything

[Lolo144]

Also, question for those who went to ASD: is there any particular net gain from going to ASD rather than just visiting the campus? I'm visiting this week, but wasn't planning on going to the March ASD unless there was something I'd be missing.

Hi! I've done both an informal visit of the school and attended the ASD. I also happen to live just a couple hours away, so it's not that big of a hassle to make the trip. I think how far you live would make a big difference!

The ASD was nice, because we got the chance to meet some potential new classmates, hear from a panel of current students, alums and career services. We also sat in on a 1L contracts class, but you may be able to arrange that during your visit. Lunch was provided and we dined with a professor that they thought we would have something in common with.

All in all, I think attending the ASD is worth it if you're interested in attending WUSTL and can make the trip. The visit you have this week will be nice and personal, but attending the ASD does give you the chance to interact with others a bit more.

[mwhitley]

Pick-up basketball or volleyball is a must if I end up attending.

Sign me up!

[TatteredDignity]

The 1L team just beat the 2L team in basketball intramurals. But it was only the regular season... we'll get em in the playoffs. We didn't show em our best stuff.

[Xs20]

The 1L team just beat the 2L team in basketball intramurals. But it was only the regular season... we'll get em in the playoffs. We didn't show em our best stuff.

What other intramurals are popular there?

[Unoriginalist]

Thanks cuse ... I don't think I'll be the only one distraught if you don't end up attending in the fall, haha

And thanks Lolo, that helps a lot!

[TatteredDignity]

The 1L team just beat the 2L team in basketball intramurals. But it was only the regular season... we'll get em in the playoffs. We didn't show em our best stuff.

What other intramurals are popular there?

Football is big in the fall. The 3L/2L/1L rivalry was pretty big. There is a small but dedicated soccer group. I played on an ultimate team, but no one was really that good and the undergrads killed us.

Softball is popular because of drinking. No one takes it too seriously.

[DoveBodyWash]

Just a heads up to everyone,

Out of my frustration of not being able to find satisfactory placement data (not just for WUSTL, but for every school), I started going through the attorney profiles of firms to literally count how many WUSTL associates there are in each of them.

(Been having to search WashU Law, WashU in St. Louis, and WashU in St. Louis School of Law in the search bars just because people phrase the school differently...and some firms don't differentiate between undergrad and law school when they made their search bars)

Using http://www.lawfirmstats.com/ to see how many firms (or offices of firms) there are in Missouri and Illinois (WUSTL's two strongest placement markets supposedly)

Then using the "Professional Search by School" to count how many WUSTL associates there are. I'm only counting associates who got their J.D.'s in 2008 and later.

Not counting the Partners since school pedigree doesn't seem to matter for shit for partnership selections, and not counting anyone who graduated before the recession, just because it's not relevant to us anymore.

Will be organizing data by Firm and by State into a spreadsheet, which I'll post when I'm done.

Preview:
Thompson Coburn has 14 WUSTL associates who graduated in 2008 or later
SNR Denton has 7
Bryan Cave has 9

There are 33 firms in Missouri and 103 in Illinois.* So this will take me awhile, but I should be done by early March, which is when people need to start making real decisions.

*According to http://www.lawfirmstats.com/

Hopefully this will give us a better picture of WUSTL's placement power in Missouri/Illinois as far as private-sector jobs.

[alwayssunnyinfl]

How large are those firms, and so far do you feel like you're seeing more representation than you'd thought, less, or just about right?

[DoveBodyWash]

How large are those firms, and so far do you feel like you're seeing more representation than you'd thought, less, or just about right?

I've only just started the major Missouri firms (the ones that pay six-figure starting). And those are definitely smaller. Nowhere has more than 300 attorneys, except for this one firm in Kansas City at 312.

So far it actually looks like there are more junior associates than middle or senior ones. Healthy representation in the partnership, but they entered the profession in a different age.

I'll consider comparing the results to "peer" schools like ND, Illinois, and Northwestern just to get a better picture of WUSTL's relative placement power

[DoveBodyWash]

My incomplete analysis of WUSTL's Private Sector Employment in Missouri
(Final spreadsheet will be uploaded once I finish the comparative analysis of WUSTL, ND, UIUC, and NU)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6is5ugt1mtcsp ... cement.JPG

Summary and Comments:
-Counted WUSTL associates in 16 major firms. Either based in Missouri or has an office in Missouri
-Listed salary/total number of offices information for firms with 5 or more WUSTL associates
-Only counted associates who graduated in 2008 or later.
-Hinshaw & Culbertson LLP does not like WUSTL very much...
- "# Outside Midwest" means the number of WUSTL associates who were based in an office outside the Midwest. But these were mostly Midwestern firms so some of them didn't even have offices in other regions
-I know there are probably more (smaller) firms in the state and St. Louis/Kansas City area. But these were the firms that seemed large enough to actually hire new associates in this economy..I'm also not from St. Louis and I'm an 0L so I don't know every firm out there..
-The note about bolded/italicized firms was so I could remember which firms not to double-count when doing the Chicago analysis later

Coming soon...
-Analysis of 60 firms in Chicago that pay six-figure starting salary (between 110K-160K)
-Includes Chicago-based firms (i.e...Kirkland & Ellis) and major firms with Chicago offices (i.e. Skadden)
-Comparing headcounts of associates who graduated in 2008 or later from WUSTL, Notre Dame, Illinois, and Northwestern.
-ONLY ASSOCIATES WHO ARE BASED IN CHICAGO ARE BEING COUNTED. So if they're a K&E associate or something and is based in NYC then they're not gonna be included.
-Finished 25% of the firms so far. Single digits numbers (or zero) for all four schools..minus 11 associates at Baker & Mackenzie from Northwestern.
-Chicago in general looks like a blood bath.. I searched multiple times pretty often because "No Results" kept popping up and I was sure that I did something wrong..

[UAX09]

Are you counting WUSTL grads in mid-law firms? WUSTL is not a big law powerhouse. Heck, even Georgetown places only a third of its students in big law positions. If you want a school which places at least fifty percent of its graduates in big law jobs, try to get into a T10 school. You should not go to WUSTL with the expectation of a big law job. The same applies to schools like Vanderbilt, GW, Notre Dame, etc. WUSTL places a respectable number of students in mid-law positions. Also, keep in mind that the vast majority of students don't practice in Missouri or Illinois and that WUSTL hires very few of its grads (unlike schools like Notre Dame). If you limit your search to WUSTL grads employed in big law positions in Missouri and Illinois, your research won't be representative of the outcomes of most WUSTL grads.

For the Class of 2016, I would encourage all of you to request more scholarship money from the admissions office. WUSTL is very generous with its aid money.

[DoveBodyWash]

Are you counting WUSTL grads in mid-law firms? WUSTL is not a big law powerhouse. Heck, even Georgetown places only a third of its students in big law positions. If you want a school which places at least fifty percent of its graduates in big law jobs, try to get into a T10 school. You should not go to WUSTL with the expectation of a big law job. The same applies to schools like Vanderbilt, GW, Notre Dame, etc. WUSTL places a respectable number of students in mid-law positions. Also, keep in mind that the vast majority of students don't practice in Missouri or Illinois and that WUSTL hires very few of its grads (unlike schools like Notre Dame). If you limit your search to WUSTL grads employed in big law positions in Missouri and Illinois, your research won't be representative of the outcomes of most WUSTL grads.

For the Class of 2016, I would encourage all of you to request more scholarship money from the admissions office. WUSTL is very generous with its aid money.

I chose Missouri/Illinois just because they were listed as two of the top three destinations for WUSTL on LST (the third being DC). Also, a lot of students attend WUSTL because they want a shot at the Chicago market or they at least assume that WUSTL will place well in its home state. I dont' think many of us are gunning for BigLaw, at least I'm not. But I wanted to at least see what WUSTL's placement power was. I acknowledge that there are flaws to using BigLaw placement in Chicago/Missouri as a proxy to infer what WUSTL's general placement is, but it's extremely difficult to define what "mid-law" is. I think even some of the firms in my spreadsheet could be categorized as mid-law. Some of these firms def aren't BigLaw.

It's really difficult to gauge mid-law/small-law/in-house placement because those positions are usually reserved for laterals. It's also difficult to track clerkships since the school doesn't publicly release that information. I'm using BigLaw as a proxy just because BigLaw is still one of the groups that still hires new grads in semi-large groups. It's also pretty relevant to people who are planning to incur significant debt. But other than that, I understand the limitations to my methods..but I'm just trying to provide more information for us to consider when making decisions.