Southwestern to Loyola? Forum

Danteshek · Post by **Danteshek** » Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:50 am

I have a 3.433 at Southwestern (which is top 20%, I think). I am applying to Loyola and USC only (my grades are probably not good enough for USC). I must remain in LA because I'm externing for a fed magistrate judge in the Fall. This summer I am working in Washington DC as a Summer Honors Intern for the US Securities and Exchange Commission. I have significant work experience in the institutional asset management industry. I love Southwestern, and have made many friends there. I am one of the school's biggest cheerleaders on TLS. My beef with Southwestern is that they have very few great business law professors (basically only Dorff). Loyola has a much stronger program in business law, and stronger ties with the large law firms. My overarching goal for law school is to return to the Securities and Exchange Commission next summer and after I graduate (hopefully in DC). I think this is achievable from Southwestern. However, if I fail to get hired at the Commission, I want to work for a law firm in Los Angeles with a significant securities practice. My understanding is that most of these firms are larger firms that only very rarely hire a Southwestern grad. I am also under the impression that these firms will look more favorably on a Loyola grad (for whatever reason). Obviously, I did not grade on to Law Review at Southwestern. If I successfully write on to LR, does that change the calculus? Basically every person I've spoken to who is not associated with Southwestern says I should transfer to Loyola and that there is a very significant difference between the two in the LA legal community. Likewise, every person at Southwestern tells me that I would be crazy to transfer to Loyola from Southwestern and that it would not do me any good. I find it very easy to be partial to the school one is currently attending. It is much harder to be dispassionate about the decision. What should I do? Please include your rationale in your answer. Thanks!

chango · Post by **chango** » Sat Jun 05, 2010 11:49 am

I seem to recall you advising me against Loyola because of their retroactive grading adjustment. Does this not concern you any longer?

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/03/loyola-l ... es-grades/

Danteshek · Post by **Danteshek** » Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:09 pm

I think it was a lame move. I don't think it should affect your decision though.

Mr. Matlock · Post by **Mr. Matlock** » Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:49 pm

I can't see how transferring with top 20% numbers is going to do you any good. Loyola, more than likely, sends less than the top 10% of its class to the NLJ250: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2443758843 How would you be ranked upon the transfer? Are the firms you're interested NLJ caliber, or are they smaller boutiques? If so, do they even accept Loyola graduates, or are they more USC and above focused? How would you be ranked upon the transfer? Have you done any research into how you'd compare to students with similar backgrounds you'd be up against at Loyola. Are you sure even at top 20%, you'd even qualify for transfer to Loyola? What kind of #'s are they looking for.

I have to admit I'm shocked to see you considering Loyola after everything you've said up to this point. Although, if you've recently been hearing info you weren't earlier privy to concerning hiring and prospects from Southwestern, would you mind sharing that info with us. How are the recent graduates faring in the current market?

Regardless, you've been very honest with your opinions up to this point, and have been a valuable resource for OL's looking for information. Good luck to you this summer and what ever decisions you end up making.

Danteshek · Post by **Danteshek** » Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:49 pm

I may stay at SW if I make law review. Assuming I work hard and do well at Loyola, I think it will be easier to get a job in a law firm than if I stay at Southwestern. Also, my work experience will help me.

Btw, I will almost certainly get into Loyola. I'm interested in large LA firms that hire Loyola grads and have substantial white collar practices (like Shepard Mullin).

A'nold · Post by **A'nold** » Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:07 pm

This thread is completely weirding me out. For one thing, I feel like this is a complete 180 from where you were just a few months ago. Why the change of heart? You seemed so sure of yourself when you were posting your LRW paper and all that jazz and that you were top of the class. Was it your lower grades that made you luke warm for SW?

Then, I don't understand why you would want to transfer to Loyola. I could understand UCLA/USC or even Irvine for that matter, but I am almost positive that you would be in a worse situation for firm jobs if you transfer to Loyola. Top 20% at SW >>>> a transfer w/ no grades at Loyola. It seems like you are scrambling or something right now. Gotta just go w/ the grades you have and try to make the best of it.

This would be like me giving up top 10% at my t3 to transfer to Seattle U. because they place better in Corporate Law in Seattle. This would help me 0% as a top 10% t3 transfer has no shot at all at those kinds of jobs.

SwollenMonkey · Post by **SwollenMonkey** » Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:09 pm

chango wrote:I seem to recall you advising me against Loyola because of their retroactive grading adjustment. Does this not concern you any longer?

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/03/loyola-l ... es-grades/

@Chango:
In regards to Loyola, you should have chosen Loyola. Ranking is all that matters in our profession. Grades, numbers, rank....that's all that matters before you are an attorney.

Regarding Loyola's inflation of grades, it was done to give an appropriate measure of the work produced by students at Loyola in relation to other law schools. While other schools, so the story goes, were inflating grades to help their graduates, Loyola Law was not doing this. So, even though the work of a student from Loyola was comparable to someone from USC or UCLA and would warrant an A, Loyola would give a B or B+. Now, with the supposed grade inflation at Loyola, the grades are said to be "Even-Steven" when compare to grads from other law schools. I don't have a source for this information, but it is what I read in some blog and no one has been able to say the information is incorrect.

Once you transfer, you are no longer ranked and must start over at the new school (From what I understood, at least.). Read this book The Art of the Law School Transfer. It is short and sweet and helpful.

Danteshek, deep down, you know you are better off at a higher ranked school. Being at a higher ranked school makes job hunting significantly easier. If you have the grades, transfer out.

One last thing, there are no fee waivers for transfer applications, so apply wisely. However, if you think you are within reach, pay the cash and submit an application. I'd do Hail-Mary passes at UCLA and USC, if I were in your position. At this point, you know it won't hurt. I also noticed that you asked for advice on the Yahoo Transfer Group. To me, this indicates your seriousness and I wish you the best of luck. My only request would be that you share your experience as you begin the transfer process.

Mr. Matlock · Post by **Mr. Matlock** » Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:19 pm

SwollenMonkey wrote:
chango wrote:I seem to recall you advising me against Loyola because of their retroactive grading adjustment. Does this not concern you any longer?

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/03/loyola-l ... es-grades/
@Chango:
In regards to Loyola, you should have chosen Loyola. Ranking is all that matters in our profession. Grades, numbers, rank....that's all that matters before you are an attorney.

Not as simple as that considering he got $$ from Southwestern. Although I am still interested in the 2009/2010 status of the SW grads. I'm with A'nold, this thread is weirding me the fuck out. It's just such a HUGE 180 from what Dantashek has been preaching all year.

SwollenMonkey · Post by **SwollenMonkey** » Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:20 pm

Mr. Matlock wrote:
SwollenMonkey wrote:
chango wrote:I seem to recall you advising me against Loyola because of their retroactive grading adjustment. Does this not concern you any longer?

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/03/loyola-l ... es-grades/
@Chango:
In regards to Loyola, you should have chosen Loyola. Ranking is all that matters in our profession. Grades, numbers, rank....that's all that matters before you are an attorney.
Not as simple as that considering he got $$ from Southwestern.

I would have chosen rank over $$$.

I agree that this is a 180, but let it serve as a learning experience. Hopefully, a bit of humility has been learned. This isn't weird, just understandable. Law school humbles all.

"God did not attend law school nor desired to become an attorney cause s/he did not want to be humbled."

Mr. Matlock · Post by **Mr. Matlock** » Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:22 pm

SwollenMonkey wrote:
Mr. Matlock wrote:
SwollenMonkey wrote:
chango wrote:I seem to recall you advising me against Loyola because of their retroactive grading adjustment. Does this not concern you any longer?

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/03/loyola-l ... es-grades/
@Chango:
In regards to Loyola, you should have chosen Loyola. Ranking is all that matters in our profession. Grades, numbers, rank....that's all that matters before you are an attorney.
Not as simple as that considering he got $$ from Southwestern.
I would have chosen rank over $$$.

Well then the question is what % of Loyola grads are actually getting these more prestigious positions vs Southwestern.

Danteshek · Post by **Danteshek** » Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:24 pm

A'nold, I disagree with you. I have spoken with numerous attorneys in the LA market, and they all think I should transfer. Southwestern is good for things like criminal law and entertainment law, not business law.

Mr. Matlock · Post by **Mr. Matlock** » Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:40 pm

Danteshek wrote:A'nold, I disagree with you. I have spoken with numerous attorneys in the LA market, and they all think I should transfer. Southwestern is good for things like criminal law and entertainment law, not business law.

So you're confident you would be fine if you were even just at median at Loyola? You've got enough contacts and information to be comfortable with that switch?

A'nold · Post by **A'nold** » Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:46 pm

Danteshek wrote:A'nold, I disagree with you. I have spoken with numerous attorneys in the LA market, and they all think I should transfer. Southwestern is good for things like criminal law and entertainment law, not business law.

I'm honestly not putting you down here, just trying to level with you like all of us potential transfer do with one another.

It's like you are all of a suddent panicking. You always seem so researched and sure of your decisions, but it's like BLAM this Loyola thing comes up and you are certain it is now the best move. What about all year? Were you mistaken about Southwestern's business law prospects? Were you certain you were going to be in the top 5% or something when you made your decision to attend?

This appears like some sort of last ditch effort to land a high paying firm job. Unless you are like BFF's with hiring partners I cannot fathom how you think being a transfer to Loyola is going to help you land one of these jobs. I've heard that you have to be AT LEAST top 10% to get these kinds of jobs from Loyola, and you are a top 20% at SW and will have no grades as a transfer student.

Danteshek · Post by **Danteshek** » Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:06 pm

It's not just about the first job out of law school. Also, my first choice is to go to the SEC. A firm job is more of a backup option. If I do well at Loyola, I don't think that will be beyond my reach. Also, Loyola has a much larger network of alums working in business law (and more alums overall). You also seem to be out of touch with the prospects of Loyola grads. Top 10 percent is only necessary for a few large firms. Top 25 is sufficient for most others.

I am not panicking. I did very well to get the SEC job and a judicial externship. I'm in a better position than most of my classmates. I wasn't mistaken about the business law prospects from Southwestern. It was the best school I got into.

UCLAtransfer · Post by **UCLAtransfer** » Sat Jun 05, 2010 6:52 pm

I don't think it is worth it to transfer. Transferring is not going to help you get the SEC job, since you are already in the summer honors program.

Thus, the main reason to transfer would be to help accomplish your "backup" plan of getting a job at a big firm that does securities work. The only way you are going to be able to get a job at a big firm is through OCI at the end of this summer. Unfortunately, top 20% from Southwestern, even at Loyola's OCI, is just not going to put you in a position to get a job at a big firm. Any firm that comes to Loyola's OCI is going to look at you as a top 20% student from SW, since they will likely be familiar with the school. Since they probably wouldn't be hiring you straight from SW based on your rank, transferring to Loyola is likely not going to change that calculus in any meaningful way.

Someone mentioned that you are on a scholarship at SW. If that is true, I think your best bet is to stay where you are. Then, if the SEC doesn't work out, at least you won't be significantly increasing your debt load for a negligible increase in opportunities.

Just my .02

A'nold · Post by **A'nold** » Sat Jun 05, 2010 6:57 pm

Danteshek wrote:It's not just about the first job out of law school. Also, my first choice is to go to the SEC. A firm job is more of a backup option. If I do well at Loyola, I don't think that will be beyond my reach. Also, Loyola has a much larger network of alums working in business law (and more alums overall). You also seem to be out of touch with the prospects of Loyola grads. Top 10 percent is only necessary for a few large firms. Top 25 is sufficient for most others.

I am not panicking. I did very well to get the SEC job and a judicial externship. I'm in a better position than most of my classmates. I wasn't mistaken about the business law prospects from Southwestern. It was the best school I got into.

This post proves the bolded a lie, if not one that you are aware of you are at least lying to yourself. Sorry, but it's true. For someone that is usually so concrete and realistic, I have no idea why you think you will be able to get a good firm job as a top 20% student from SW transferring to Loyola. Good luck.

UCLAtransfer · Post by **UCLAtransfer** » Sat Jun 05, 2010 6:58 pm

Danteshek wrote:Top 10 percent is only necessary for a few large firms. Top 25 is sufficient for most others.

Disagree. I am friends with a number of people from Loyola who transferred to UCLA. They have said across the board that that even their highly-ranked peers who chose not to transfer got slaughtered. Purely anecdotal of course, but I don't think you are going to find much support anywhere for the statement that "Top 25 is sufficient for most others."

Even if this 25% number were true, it wouldn't matter for your purposes, because you will not have any grades/rank from Loyola when you will be seeking employment with a big firm.

chango · Post by **chango** » Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:33 pm

so to clarify:

if you get Law Review you're going to stay at Southwestern, but if not, you're going to transfer to Loyola?

Danteshek · Post by **Danteshek** » Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:18 pm

UCLATransfer: That is mostly a function of the unusually tough market this year. I did not have a scholarship this year, but I may be offered some money to stay.

Chango: being on Law Review is important to me. That along with a scholarship to stay will probably be enough to keep me around. Obviously the size of the scholarship is a factor.

A'nold: I might not get what I want, but it's important to me to try. Southwestern's OCI is a joke compared to Loyola's.

Bankhead · Post by **Bankhead** » Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:36 pm

Danteshek wrote: A'nold: I might not get what I want, but it's important to me to try. Southwestern's OCI is a joke compared to Loyola's.

Actually, what is important is keeping your debt as low as possible. Do you have a scholarship at SW?

solidsnake · Post by **solidsnake** » Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:39 pm

I'm from LA. Reputation of SW and Loyola is identical as a "bar-passer" school. Unless you can get into UCLA/USC/t14, then not worth it to transfer (especially to Loyola) unless you simply and absolutely hate southwestern but love studying law.

A'nold · Post by **A'nold** » Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:44 pm

Well, if you're going to do this, you HAVE to give it everything you've got to nail a transfer to UCI at least. You would likely have a good chance of getting the job you want NEAR LA at least, with only 60-70 students bidding on more than that amount of firms at OCI.

solidsnake · Post by **solidsnake** » Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:52 pm

I agree w A'nold: try out UCI. To be honest, I don't think top 20% at a T4 is anything to write home about, but UCI may go for it.

Danteshek · Post by **Danteshek** » Sat Jun 05, 2010 11:28 pm

A'nold wrote:Well, if you're going to do this, you HAVE to give it everything you've got to nail a transfer to UCI at least. You would likely have a good chance of getting the job you want NEAR LA at least, with only 60-70 students bidding on more than that amount of firms at OCI.

I'm not interested in UCI. I also only have one letter of rec.

A'nold · Post by **A'nold** » Sat Jun 05, 2010 11:42 pm

Then what is this thread all about? Are you asking about your odds? Not really, you just told us you are for sure getting in. Are you asking if you should? We have all said it doesn't sound like a good plan and you say it is.

What is this then?

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