Military Law Forum
- TheSpanishMain
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Re: JAG Marine Lawyer, set to deploy pending physical
I assume this is gladiatoroflaw again? Here goes.
1. You can't be a JAG without passing the bar. How were you doing insurance defense and litigation without having passed?
2. That's not what "deploy" means. How much do you actually know about the military? You seem completely lost. Have you actually been offered a commission, or just offered a chance to apply?
3. Is English your first language?
1. You can't be a JAG without passing the bar. How were you doing insurance defense and litigation without having passed?
2. That's not what "deploy" means. How much do you actually know about the military? You seem completely lost. Have you actually been offered a commission, or just offered a chance to apply?
3. Is English your first language?
- Mickfromgm
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Re: JAG Marine Lawyer, set to deploy pending physical
I am a bit confused by the post, too. OP, can you explain those points?TheSpanishMain wrote:I assume this is gladiatoroflaw again? Here goes.
1. You can't be a JAG without passing the bar. How were you doing insurance defense and litigation without having passed?
2. That's not what "deploy" means. How much do you actually know about the military? You seem completely lost. Have you actually been offered a commission, or just offered a chance to apply?
3. Is English your first language?
- encore1101
- Posts: 826
- Joined: Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:13 am
Re: JAG Marine Lawyer, set to deploy pending physical
Like TSM said, there's some confusion here. You can't become a JAG without being admitted in at least one state, so it doesn't make sense that you'd "be joining in November if [you] fail the bar," unless you're already admitted in a different state.
"To deploy" has a special meaning in the military. When I read the title, I thought you were "deploying" to Iraq or Afghanistan, or, at the very least, a MEU. Being shipped off to boot camp/OCI is not deploying.
Joining any military branch is a huge decision by itself, but the Marines make its JAG officers go through OCS alongside candidates gunning to be Force Recon platoon commanders, unlike other branches that offer an accelerated program for its JAG officers. I don't know your physical and mental hardiness, but I hope you're ready for that. Additionally, are you comfortable with the fact that you may be assigned to a duty station anywhere around the world or that you'd deploy alongside your unit to Iraq or Afghanistan (fobbit, but deploy, nonetheless).
Do you know what the "physical exam" consists of? Not just the finger up the butt, but a perfect score on a Marine PFT is 100 crunches, 20 pull-ups and 3 miles in 18 minutes. Not everybody gets a perfect score, but officers, even JAGs, are expected to be towards the top of that range.
"To deploy" has a special meaning in the military. When I read the title, I thought you were "deploying" to Iraq or Afghanistan, or, at the very least, a MEU. Being shipped off to boot camp/OCI is not deploying.
Joining any military branch is a huge decision by itself, but the Marines make its JAG officers go through OCS alongside candidates gunning to be Force Recon platoon commanders, unlike other branches that offer an accelerated program for its JAG officers. I don't know your physical and mental hardiness, but I hope you're ready for that. Additionally, are you comfortable with the fact that you may be assigned to a duty station anywhere around the world or that you'd deploy alongside your unit to Iraq or Afghanistan (fobbit, but deploy, nonetheless).
Do you know what the "physical exam" consists of? Not just the finger up the butt, but a perfect score on a Marine PFT is 100 crunches, 20 pull-ups and 3 miles in 18 minutes. Not everybody gets a perfect score, but officers, even JAGs, are expected to be towards the top of that range.
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Re: Military Law
What are some of the assignments you can get in Air Force JAG once you've gained some experience as an officer (6-10 years in maybe)? I understand eventually most JAGs will wind up serving as SJAs for various commands, but Im wondering what some of the other opportunities you'd be working towards are if you stay in past the time most people separate.
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Re: JAG Marine Lawyer, set to deploy pending physical
Does Marine JAG not have the same selection board process as the other branches? Is it really as simple as passing the fitness test and getting through OCS? (not that those aren't serious hurdles, but they are pretty straightforward).
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- TheSpanishMain
- Posts: 4744
- Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:26 pm
Re: JAG Marine Lawyer, set to deploy pending physical
The Marine process is a little different, but still very competitive and rigorous AFAIK. That's why I'm a little skeptical that OP actually got an offer to do Marine JAG. If it's who I'm thinking of, he/she was in another thread talking about how they were going to join "the Marine Core."Anonymous User wrote:Does Marine JAG not have the same selection board process as the other branches? Is it really as simple as passing the fitness test and getting through OCS? (not that those aren't serious hurdles, but they are pretty straightforward).
I wonder if OP is confusing an opportunity to apply with actually being selected. Like, I wonder if the recruiter is telling him/her "Yeah, if you do x, y, and z, we can submit an application packet for you."
- anon sequitur
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Re: JAG Marine Lawyer, set to deploy pending physical
This is a pretty obvious drunk post, don't read too much into it.
- Patrick Bateman
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- Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:41 pm
Re: Military Law
This is a really good question that I don't think the board has addressed directly.Anonymous User wrote:What are some of the assignments you can get in Air Force JAG once you've gained some experience as an officer (6-10 years in maybe)? I understand eventually most JAGs will wind up serving as SJAs for various commands, but Im wondering what some of the other opportunities you'd be working towards are if you stay in past the time most people separate.
Your time as an Air Force JAG can be viewed as generally alternating between two types of work: 1) specialty work that is focused on a particular subject matter - this is usually as part of AFLOA (but not necessarily at AFLOA at JB Andrews) where you are working for other lawyers and 2) more generalist work as part of, or leading, a legal staff for an operational commander at the Wing, NAF, or MAJCOM level.
You first 3-4 years generally are going to be in the second category - you will be at a base legal office that works for the commander of that particular Wing or Center. Your immediate boss will be the SJA but the senior rater will be that commander. You will be assigned to a particular subject matter (military justice, environmental, etc) but all sorts of other work creeps in that forces you to be more of a generalist - you will be trying courts, participating in base exercises, doing legal assistance, etc.
You can then break out of that and take a specialty job like ADC for those good in the courtroom, do different types of civil law like medical law or commercial litigation. After a couple years in that job, you may move into a more senior specialty assignment (becoming a senior trial counsel or appellate counsel after being an ADC for example) or be forced back into the real Air Force as a DSJA at a smaller wing or in a staff position at a NAF legal office. For those folks who did a second specialty job, they will very likely end up on a legal staff for some level of command as a follow on.
So, to directly answer your question - years 6-10 can often have you spending two years doing a specialist job and then two years on a legal staff. This assignment pattern continues for the rest of your career, though you obviously will be expected to continue taking greater leadership roles in both the specialist job and the staff jobs.
The type of specialist jobs will be guided by whatever your specialty is (duh). If you are a military justice type that has gone from ADC to STC/SDC/Appellate, you may be able to become a military (trial) judge once you are at the junior Lt Col level. Colonels can be selected to serve as appellate judges at AFCCA. You can take leadership roles as the Chief Senior Trial Counsel or a Chief Senior Defense Counsel.
There is also the LLM program, which will obviously give you a new specialty, as well as a bunch of Federal fellowships and other prestigious programs where you get to staff high-level folks at the Pentagon/Congress/etc.
It may go without saying but what I’ve talked about is just a general template – I know folks that have been within AFLOA in specialty jobs for a really long time (for example – ADC to STC to Appellate and even to a Regional Chief STC after that). That is not always the best thing from a career progression and promotion standpoint, but that is another post for another time. Alternatively, some folks may pick a few consecutive leadership positions at base legal offices, such as going from a DSJA to then being an SJA (or SJA to SJA).
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Re: JAG Marine Lawyer, set to deploy pending physical
Anon only because I would out myself on other posts, not because I wouldnt be more than happy to say this in person.
OP-- stay away from the Marine Corps. You join the Corps as an officer because you want to be a leader of Marines and serve your country, not for political aspirations. If you join for those reasons, you are doing a disservice to the Marines you will be leading and to the Marines you will be representing-- both in the courtroom and in the broader history and tradition of the Marine Corps.
@encore-- PFT standards changed this year. For the youngins you now need more then 100 sit ups and more than 20 pull ups. Forget the exact numbers off the top of my head since I'm out now and living the comfortable top-law-schools.com . OP could be talking about a medical physical, which is a trip to MEPS that's a check in the box unless you have some preexisting medical conditions-- then they start the waiver process.
For any other prospective Marine Judge Advocates that come through this thread-- definitely consider it. The Marine Corps was one of the best experiences of my life and I got to serve with some amazing people. Just make sure you're doing it for the right reasons or the 10 weeks of OCS, 6 months of TBS (these two things will be done in the freezing cold or sweltering heat in the woods of Quantico, VA), and deployments around the world will make you miserable... and as I mentioned-- you'd be doing a disservice to your Marines if you arent fully committed and putting their needs first.
OP-- stay away from the Marine Corps. You join the Corps as an officer because you want to be a leader of Marines and serve your country, not for political aspirations. If you join for those reasons, you are doing a disservice to the Marines you will be leading and to the Marines you will be representing-- both in the courtroom and in the broader history and tradition of the Marine Corps.
@encore-- PFT standards changed this year. For the youngins you now need more then 100 sit ups and more than 20 pull ups. Forget the exact numbers off the top of my head since I'm out now and living the comfortable top-law-schools.com . OP could be talking about a medical physical, which is a trip to MEPS that's a check in the box unless you have some preexisting medical conditions-- then they start the waiver process.
For any other prospective Marine Judge Advocates that come through this thread-- definitely consider it. The Marine Corps was one of the best experiences of my life and I got to serve with some amazing people. Just make sure you're doing it for the right reasons or the 10 weeks of OCS, 6 months of TBS (these two things will be done in the freezing cold or sweltering heat in the woods of Quantico, VA), and deployments around the world will make you miserable... and as I mentioned-- you'd be doing a disservice to your Marines if you arent fully committed and putting their needs first.
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Re: JAG Marine Lawyer, set to deploy pending physical
Haven't been able to find great information on the Marine JAG application process. Could someone just break down the basics, particularly how the process differs from the other branches?
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Re: JAG Marine Lawyer, set to deploy pending physical
This is the anon from the post above you. I don't know the differences between the other branches and I was not a JA but generally you will need to engage with an OSO (Officer Selection Officer). This will generally be a captain who is in a "b-billet" (not doing his or her normal job as a logistics officer, lawyer, intel, etc and instead is recruiting officers). They are usually responsible for a few campuses in a geographic area and you can google to find yours. They are recruiting for 3 types of contracts-- air, ground, and law. They don't have much to promise you-- it's about becoming a Marine officer. Tho there may be some minor tuition assistance after you complete OCS (a couple thousand at most when I went through... long ago so it may have changed). Once in contact, they'll evaluate you based on your school, grades, LSAT/SAT, and physical fitness scores for the PFT and (maybe) the CFT. The scoring scales for these recently changed but if you can run 3mi in less than 21 min, do at least 15 pull ups, and 100 sit ups in 2 min then you're in a good starting position, but the more you beat those numbers the more competitive you are. You'll also need to complete a physical.Anonymous User wrote:Haven't been able to find great information on the Marine JAG application process. Could someone just break down the basics, particularly how the process differs from the other branches?
If you are accepted on a board, you'll go to OCS for 10 weeks in Quantico. It's like an extended and very intense job interview. About 1/3 are dropped for various reasons. If it's for injury, they'll generally be favorable to you applying again. At graduation, you'll commission as a 2ndLt and drop to the inactive reserves. Go and finish your degree then you go to 6 months of the basic school (TBS) where you learn the basics of being a Marine officer and leading units up to the platoon reinforced level. You'll do all of this side by side with your air and ground fellow Marines. After TBS, you will go to the Judge Advocate school and then onto assignment in the fleet.
I'll leave it to folks that have gone through the law pipeline to give better details, but figured I could at least provide a starting point.
- A. Nony Mouse
- Posts: 29293
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Re: Military Law
There is a whole thread devoted to the military law jobs, filled with very knowledgable people, so I've merged this topic. You will find a lot of information here.
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Re: Military Law
Any updates from those AD Army selects hoping to get into the October class? All my documents are submitted but haven't heard anything for about a month now.
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Med Requirements - Military Law
Does anybody know if the medical requirements are the same for JAG as active duty? I am considering applying for Army or Navy JAG. However, I am worried about the medical requirements do to some medical history. Long story short, I have a small metal plate in my head as a result of an accident some time ago. I applied to West Point for college but was told I was medically disqualified. I have sent some emails out to both Army and Navy but haven't heard back. Any advice would help.
- TheSpanishMain
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Re: Med Requirements - Military Law
JAG is active duty, unless you're a reservist. "Active duty" just means someone who is in the military full time. It has nothing to do with what your particular job in the military is. A Navy SEAL and an administrative clerk are both equally "active duty."Anonymous User wrote:Does anybody know if the medical requirements are the same for JAG as active duty? I am considering applying for Army or Navy JAG. However, I am worried about the medical requirements do to some medical history. Long story short, I have a small metal plate in my head as a result of an accident some time ago. I applied to West Point for college but was told I was medically disqualified. I have sent some emails out to both Army and Navy but haven't heard back. Any advice would help.
- Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law
If any of you aspiring JAGs are in the DC area this summer, I would recommend checking out this program:
https://www.facebook.com/USAFJAG/photos ... =3&theater
June 22nd, 1-3 PM, at CAAF.
https://www.facebook.com/USAFJAG/photos ... =3&theater
June 22nd, 1-3 PM, at CAAF.
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Re: Military Law
I am reserve waiting on the October class, and I have not heard anything. I know JARO is extremely busy; it is like a four man show up there.
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Re: Military Law
In the same boat as you, but last I heard is that mid/late June we would get more info.Anonymous User wrote:I am reserve waiting on the October class, and I have not heard anything. I know JARO is extremely busy; it is like a four man show up there.
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Re: Military Law
I hope we get some information towards the end of this month.Anonymous User wrote:In the same boat as you, but last I heard is that mid/late June we would get more info.Anonymous User wrote:I am reserve waiting on the October class, and I have not heard anything. I know JARO is extremely busy; it is like a four man show up there.
- UHB
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Re: Military Law
Hello all, I'm an Air Force guy taking the LSAT in October. Has there ever been a definitive list made of T13 schools that will/won't convert scholarships to living stipends for those of us using the G.I. Bill? I'm married, so this factor will likely play into my decisions a bit.
I've been reading through this massive thread a bit and haven't found something like this, forgive me if I've missed it!
I've been reading through this massive thread a bit and haven't found something like this, forgive me if I've missed it!
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Re: Military Law
There's some discussion of this in the TLS Veteran's thread though this is still a pretty new pipeline that will likely just involve you calling places and asking them directly once you've been admitted.UHB wrote:Hello all, I'm an Air Force guy taking the LSAT in October. Has there ever been a definitive list made of T13 schools that will/won't convert scholarships to living stipends for those of us using the G.I. Bill? I'm married, so this factor will likely play into my decisions a bit.
I've been reading through this massive thread a bit and haven't found something like this, forgive me if I've missed it!
Last edited by AJordan on Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- TheSpanishMain
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Re: Military Law
To the extent they'll do it at all, it'll be private schools. So you can probably cross UVA, Michigan and Berkeley off your list. At least, when I was applying, every public school I asked about this said they couldn't do it legally.UHB wrote:Hello all, I'm an Air Force guy taking the LSAT in October. Has there ever been a definitive list made of T13 schools that will/won't convert scholarships to living stipends for those of us using the G.I. Bill? I'm married, so this factor will likely play into my decisions a bit.
I've been reading through this massive thread a bit and haven't found something like this, forgive me if I've missed it!
- UHB
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- Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:05 am
Re: Military Law
Thanks for responding, guys. While browsing old threads, I've definitely seen posts saying Michigan and Berkeley have offered this in the past, though not UVA. Perhaps it has changed, though, I'm not trying to contradict you.
I suppose it will just be something I have to call and ask about after getting accepted.
I suppose it will just be something I have to call and ask about after getting accepted.
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Re: Military Law
Any advice from folks here on how to best utilize SLRP? Did you just start paying the most you can after commissioning and just take the SLRP as it came? Did you wait until all the SLRP payments were made to start paying on the principal? Combo of the 10yr payment plan/loan forgiveness and SLRP? Interested to hear the strategies people have tried.
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Re: Military Law
I have a have a specific question about the USAF JAG application and my prospects.
Some background: I'm a rising senior in undergrad, and I'm very interested in doing JAG after law school. However, I recently made a mistake and was fired from my job. An employee peer-pressured me into inhaling a hit of marijuana while on a lunch break, and I foolishly took a single breath. I immediately realized that what I had done was incredibly stupid and irresponsible, and I walked away from the interaction before anything else could take place. In the coming weeks, I refused all subsequent offers from my fellow employee, but when he was fired, he implicated me as well, and my boss had no choice but to fire me. No charges of any kind were filed. In addition, my boss wrote me an outstanding letter of recommendation to explain the circumstances, to advocate on my behalf because I immediately sought to rectify my actions, to explain that it in no way was indicative of my character or my fitness for a future job (just a youthful mistake), and to bolster my future job prospects by detailing my exceptional work performance in glowing detail.
My main question is the following: assuming good law school grades, moot court/Mock Trial experience, a criminal law clinic, etc., what are my prospects of getting accepted as a USAF JAG? Obviously I would disclose all this info, include the recommendation letter, and demonstrate my very real remorse in a personal statement. How much would this hurt me? Is this something the board could look past if it was obvious that I wanted to serve, and that this incident wasn't representative of me as a person?
Thanks.
Some background: I'm a rising senior in undergrad, and I'm very interested in doing JAG after law school. However, I recently made a mistake and was fired from my job. An employee peer-pressured me into inhaling a hit of marijuana while on a lunch break, and I foolishly took a single breath. I immediately realized that what I had done was incredibly stupid and irresponsible, and I walked away from the interaction before anything else could take place. In the coming weeks, I refused all subsequent offers from my fellow employee, but when he was fired, he implicated me as well, and my boss had no choice but to fire me. No charges of any kind were filed. In addition, my boss wrote me an outstanding letter of recommendation to explain the circumstances, to advocate on my behalf because I immediately sought to rectify my actions, to explain that it in no way was indicative of my character or my fitness for a future job (just a youthful mistake), and to bolster my future job prospects by detailing my exceptional work performance in glowing detail.
My main question is the following: assuming good law school grades, moot court/Mock Trial experience, a criminal law clinic, etc., what are my prospects of getting accepted as a USAF JAG? Obviously I would disclose all this info, include the recommendation letter, and demonstrate my very real remorse in a personal statement. How much would this hurt me? Is this something the board could look past if it was obvious that I wanted to serve, and that this incident wasn't representative of me as a person?
Thanks.
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