Big 4 Tax WLB vs Law Firm Boutique WLB? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I am in a situation where I am deciding between going to a boutique law firm @170k 1750 billable hrs and a Big 4 Tax role @120k. I have heard some people say Big 4 is a very chill 9-5 and others say it is not. Regarding the boutique, it is small so I cannot ask anyone about WLB because it is a red flag of a question. My biggest concern is that I am not cut out for the law firm life and cannot make it past a few months in the boutique if the firm controls 100% of my time. I think I can survive the Big 4 based off of my internship there. Anyone have any thoughts?

[Anonymous User]

I am in a situation where I am deciding between going to a boutique law firm @170k 1750 billable hrs and a Big 4 Tax role @120k. I have heard some people say Big 4 is a very chill 9-5 and others say it is not. Regarding the boutique, it is small so I cannot ask anyone about WLB because it is a red flag of a question. My biggest concern is that I am not cut out for the law firm life and cannot make it past a few months in the boutique if the firm controls 100% of my time. I think I can survive the Big 4 based off of my internship there. Anyone have any thoughts?

lol. Head over to /r/accounting to get a preview of a miserable big4 existence.

[CanadianWolf]

Not sure, but I suspect that I know both the boutique and the Big 4.

In addition to the difference in pay, it may come down to whether you are more comfortable being a generalist in tax law (biglaw and most tax law firms) or a specialist (Big 4 WNT) with a perfectionist type personality.

If you're looking for a "very chill 9-5" at annual pay in between your two options, the federal government may be a good place to look. (CIA is hiring)

Acquaintance recently asked another tax attorney who recently moved to a DC boutique (which seems to be always seeking tax attorneys with 2 to 4 years experience and hires at different rates for transactional and for tax controversy litigation) for a comparison, but has not received any response. Judging by the pay, you are considering a transactional tax position (lower pay from this firm than for tax controversy).

In order to get a meaningful response, you need to speak with one who has experience at that particular Big 4 in that specialty as the temperament of the division head and of the partner/principal/managing director to whom you report will affect your experience. Additionally, at times you may work on projects for multiple partners/principals at various regional offices including NYC some of whom are very demanding and often less than charming.

Broadly speaking, billable hours tend to be more important at major law firms while quality of work is most important for Big 4 WNT and federal government. Utilization rate is important at Big 4, but not as important as in biglaw.

Hard to comment further without more specifics--and I am not asking for them--since it depends upon one's superiors & specialty when discussing Big 4 WNT and boutique tax law firms.

Minor consideration: At Big 4 WNT, many have accounting backgrounds. This can make a difference regarding intra-office relations.

[hangtime813]

Is the offer from a big4 WNT? International, SALT, transfer pricing, tax controversy, etc. are all pretty different. For example credits and incentives or indirect taxes in SALT usually isnt too bad, but getting stuck in position where you are doing 1120s all day sounds terrible.

[CanadianWolf]

I am in a situation where I am deciding between going to a boutique law firm @170k 1750 billable hrs and a Big 4 Tax role @120k. I have heard some people say Big 4 is a very chill 9-5 and others say it is not. Regarding the boutique, it is small so I cannot ask anyone about WLB because it is a red flag of a question. My biggest concern is that I am not cut out for the law firm life and cannot make it past a few months in the boutique if the firm controls 100% of my time. I think I can survive the Big 4 based off of my internship there. Anyone have any thoughts?

I am a bit confused: Do you have post-JD/LLM work experience as a tax attorney ?

Are you a perfectionist regarding your work product ? If yes, then you will probably be more comfortable at Big 4 WNT; if not a perfectionist, then law firm work may be the more comfortable option for you. You do not want to piss off a Big 4 partner/principal at a major office (such as NYC). Legal work can be amended, not as easy as with your work product submitted to a partner/principal at a regional office as a WNTO attorney.

[Anonymous User]

I am in a situation where I am deciding between going to a boutique law firm @170k 1750 billable hrs and a Big 4 Tax role @120k. I have heard some people say Big 4 is a very chill 9-5 and others say it is not. Regarding the boutique, it is small so I cannot ask anyone about WLB because it is a red flag of a question. My biggest concern is that I am not cut out for the law firm life and cannot make it past a few months in the boutique if the firm controls 100% of my time. I think I can survive the Big 4 based off of my internship there. Anyone have any thoughts?

I am a bit confused: Do you have post-JD/LLM work experience as a tax attorney ?

Are you a perfectionist regarding your work product ? If yes, then you will probably be more comfortable at Big 4 WNT; if not a perfectionist, then law firm work may be the more comfortable option for you. You do not want to piss off a Big 4 partner/principal at a major office (such as NYC). Legal work can be amended, not as easy as with your work product submitted to a partner/principal at a regional office as a WNTO attorney.

I have no post-JD work exp as a tax attorney. I am a first year who freshly graduated. I believe the law firm will give me a better legal experience since the big 4 is not a law firm and seems more like I would be in a consulting role. For example writing informal tax memos to clients but gaining none of the other law firm experience like contract drafting etc...

[Anonymous User]

Is the offer from a big4 WNT? International, SALT, transfer pricing, tax controversy, etc. are all pretty different. For example credits and incentives or indirect taxes in SALT usually isnt too bad, but getting stuck in position where you are doing 1120s all day sounds terrible.

General tax and exec comp tax.

[CanadianWolf]

Is the offer from a big4 WNT? International, SALT, transfer pricing, tax controversy, etc. are all pretty different. For example credits and incentives or indirect taxes in SALT usually isnt too bad, but getting stuck in position where you are doing 1120s all day sounds terrible.

General tax and exec comp tax.

Interesting as "general tax & executive comp" seems more like a biglaw designation than a Big 4 Tax designation.

Without any prior experience post-JD, you should take the boutique law firm position because it is easier to switch from tax law firm to Big 4 WNT than vice versa. Also, the difference in pay is significant--almost 42% higher. The extra $50,000 before tax pay should cover your housing & utility costs in DC.

[CanadianWolf]

Also, it is not clear as to whether or not you have earned an LLM in Taxation or if you just have a JD degree. Law firms are more likely to cover the cost of earning an LLM in Tax part-time than a Big 4 WNTO.

[Anonymous User]

Also, it is not clear as to whether or not you have earned an LLM in Taxation or if you just have a JD degree. Law firms are more likely to cover the cost of earning an LLM in Tax part-time than a Big 4 WNTO.

I have not earned an LLM in tax. Just a JD. Also the boutique is not even in tax. Its in property transactional. So completely different practice area.

[CanadianWolf]

Also, it is not clear as to whether or not you have earned an LLM in Taxation or if you just have a JD degree. Law firms are more likely to cover the cost of earning an LLM in Tax part-time than a Big 4 WNTO.

I have not earned an LLM in tax. Just a JD. Also the boutique is not even in tax. Its in property transactional. So completely different practice area.

Do you have a preferred practice area (tax or for property transactions or other) ?

[Anonymous User]

Also, it is not clear as to whether or not you have earned an LLM in Taxation or if you just have a JD degree. Law firms are more likely to cover the cost of earning an LLM in Tax part-time than a Big 4 WNTO.

I have not earned an LLM in tax. Just a JD. Also the boutique is not even in tax. Its in property transactional. So completely different practice area.

Quit bragging and take the law firm offer. The only people who go to Big4 are those who struck out with law firms.

[hangtime813]

Is the offer from a big4 WNT? International, SALT, transfer pricing, tax controversy, etc. are all pretty different. For example credits and incentives or indirect taxes in SALT usually isnt too bad, but getting stuck in position where you are doing 1120s all day sounds terrible.

General tax and exec comp tax.

Agreed with the other poster that said this seems more like a law firm designation, so kind of strange. In any case, based on the other comments in this thread, I'd only take the big4 offer if you really like tax and can see yourself doing it for awhile. Tax is one of the most difficult areas of law and it seems like people either love it or hate it. With that said, generally wlb in big4 is a lot better and sustainable than in biglaw/many law firms.

[Anonymous User]

Also, it is not clear as to whether or not you have earned an LLM in Taxation or if you just have a JD degree. Law firms are more likely to cover the cost of earning an LLM in Tax part-time than a Big 4 WNTO.

I have not earned an LLM in tax. Just a JD. Also the boutique is not even in tax. Its in property transactional. So completely different practice area.

Quit bragging and take the law firm offer. The only people who go to Big4 are those who struck out with law firms.

This is a garbage take in my opinion. Most certainly would not have considered any typical small law firm over the big 4. Why get paid pennies for working in a law firm setting when you can get a decent 6 figure salary working a 9-5? Regarding boutique/biglaw its a different story but the hours will be much more brutal.

[Anonymous User]

Do you

I do not. I think i'm just going to take the flyer and go to the law firm. If I had a tax LLM or was very interested in sticking with tax then I guess i'd stick with big 4. But I have no strong interest in tax. I am going to assume however that the boutique will be way more intense than the big 4 and I believe that is a safe assumption to make. Hopefully the property practice area will be more beneficial to me in the future.

Thank you once again for all the help. I really appreciate it.

[CanadianWolf]

Do you

I do not. I think i'm just going to take the flyer and go to the law firm. If I had a tax LLM or was very interested in sticking with tax then I guess i'd stick with big 4. But I have no strong interest in tax. I am going to assume however that the boutique will be way more intense than the big 4 and I believe that is a safe assumption to make. Hopefully the property practice area will be more beneficial to me in the future.

Thank you once again for all the help. I really appreciate it.

Not a reasonable assumption.

Nevertheless, accepting the boutique law firm offer is reasonable considering the significant difference in pay and in light of your revelation that you are not dedicated to practicing in the area of tax law.

I find it interesting that you were offered a position in a Big 4 WNTO without having earned an llm in taxation degree. Are you a licensed CPA ?

Also, wonder if the boutique law firm is really in property transactions or if you are just trying to disguise your identity--which is okay.

[Anonymous User]

disguise

Sorry for late response. TLS has been down for over a week. It is not WNT. WNT I believes only practices in Washington D.C. I am supposed to start a big 4 position for tax-exec comp in a couple of weeks in a major market, not D.C. The boutique law firm does litigation and transactional property. Majority of the attorneys there are in the litigation department and I would be one of the few in the transactional team. I am not misrepresenting what the law firm does--they handle primarily commercial property matters both on litigation side and transactional side. On the transactional side there are some finance property matters dealing with loans and some property transactional matters like closing, escrow etc...

I am still waiting to hear back from the law firm after my callback but I strongly believe I will receive an offer. If I do not then I have nothing to worry about because the decision will have been made for me.

I am concerned that the law firm in this instance is the riskier choice. At the big 4 there are rules and procedures in place and if you are first year you're not going to get fired unless you do something really stupid. At a small boutique firm, I feel like you can get canned way more easily. If lets say a partner does not like me, i'm screwed because the transactional team is super small and there is no avoiding him. If I get fired as a first year, i'm super fucked. At the same time I do believe I will get more relevant legal experience at a law firm than at the big 4 which can justify taking the risk. If I try to go to a law firm from the big 4 lets say in exec-comp, I believe they will still start me out as a first year associate because I don't have law firm experience.

Regarding in-house opportunities I don't know but maybe the big 4 might be better than the law firm? I noticed that half of NYU's LLM class goes to the big 4 so it can't be that bad of a gig? I just don't know the answer to any of these questions so it is causing great pain. I was curious what your thoughts are because you have experience in these matters.

Does it simply boil down to if I want to stay in tax, stay with big 4 and if I don't care about the practice area that much, go with the law firm?

[Anonymous User]

Do you

I do not. I think i'm just going to take the flyer and go to the law firm. If I had a tax LLM or was very interested in sticking with tax then I guess i'd stick with big 4. But I have no strong interest in tax. I am going to assume however that the boutique will be way more intense than the big 4 and I believe that is a safe assumption to make. Hopefully the property practice area will be more beneficial to me in the future.

Thank you once again for all the help. I really appreciate it.

Not a reasonable assumption.

Nevertheless, accepting the boutique law firm offer is reasonable considering the significant difference in pay and in light of your revelation that you are not dedicated to practicing in the area of tax law.

I find it interesting that you were offered a position in a Big 4 WNTO without having earned an llm in taxation degree. Are you a licensed CPA ?

Also, wonder if the boutique law firm is really in property transactions or if you are just trying to disguise your identity--which is okay.

Scratch all the stuff I said above. If I get the offer in the law firm I will take it and not look back. I learned that big 4 pigeonholds you from law firms because of the lack of contract drafting and other technical legal experience. Regarding going to a shit law firm or big 4, then big 4 I think is still the better decision although one can argue you will get better law firm experience at the shitlaw than big 4. But a boutique law firm that pays a chunk more, it seems like the answer is law firm all day.

I talked to many big 4 people over the last few weeks and a lot of them told me the difficulty of transitioning to a law firm and how law firms perceive the big 4. I am not ready to fully close the law firm door yet so figured I would be better off starting at a law firm. Fingers crossed that I get an offer after my 3rd interview.

I wanted to hear your thoughts?

[CanadianWolf]

Thank you for clearing up my misunderstanding that the Big 4 position was a WNT position as it is not. Big 4 WNT is a lot of research, writing, & publishing--some do presentations as well.

Big 4 work can be intense & demanding in certain practice areas--such as M&A tax during periods of high M&A activity.

If focused on executive compensation taxation in a major city Big 4, then exit opportunities to major law firms would be limited, but I do think that there would be opportunities as executive compensation is a highly specialized practice area for both accounting & law firms. Whether or not biglaw would start one transitioning from a Big 4 accounting firm as a first year associate would depend upon a couple of factors, but the pay would almost certainly be higher at the biglaw firm.

Tax people love tax, therefore, if you are not passionate about practicing tax law, then Big 4 would not be a wise choice.

If a Big 4 wants to get rid of a well-behaved associate, they can direct work assignments to other associates
and do so on the basis of one's utilization rate (essentially billable hours).

[Anonymous User]

Thank you for clearing up my misunderstanding that the Big 4 position was a WNT position as it is not. Big 4 WNT is a lot of research, writing, & publishing--some do presentations as well.

Big 4 work can be intense & demanding in certain practice areas--such as M&A tax during periods of high M&A activity.

If focused on executive compensation taxation in a major city Big 4, then exit opportunities to major law firms would be limited, but I do think that there would be opportunities as executive compensation is a highly specialized practice area for both accounting & law firms. Whether or not biglaw would start one transitioning from a Big 4 accounting firm as a first year associate would depend upon a couple of factors, but the pay would almost certainly be higher at the biglaw firm.

Tax people love tax, therefore, if you are not passionate about practicing tax law, then Big 4 would not be a wise choice.

If a Big 4 wants to get rid of a well-behaved associate, they can direct work assignments to other associates
and do so on the basis of one's utilization rate (essentially billable hours).

Do you know about in-house opportunities coming from the big 4? Is there any good options after a few years?

[CanadianWolf]

I do not have any knowledge about in-house placement from Big 4 tax accounting positions. (However, I can share that the option is likely there, but some clients are a bit abusive toward Big 4 partners & principals because of the constant pressure to keep costs down in the presence of an implied threat to take business to a competing Big 4 accounting firm. Produces an environment of the particular Big 4 firm hoping to place a senior individual with the client while the client wants to keep the Big 4 partner/principle in fear of losing the company as a client.)

Some Big 4 tax practitioners choose to remain at the Senior Manager level due to the very wide pay scale and the lack of any requirement to bring in new clients; essentially, these Big 4 Senior Managers choose to be career-long specialists with a perfectionist personality.

Switching from a Big 4 tax position to a major law firm or to in-house positions often is linked to a professional working relationship with the law firm or corporation while a Big 4 employee; the move is possible if a law firm partner or in-house counsel likes the individual and likes the work product of that Big 4 employee.

Big 4 success is mostly about one's work ethic & willingness to prioritize work over other matters. Initially, Big 4 pay is much lower than biglaw or, as in your situation, boutique law firm pay. In fact, some newly minted attorneys cannot handle their substantial student debt burden on Big 4 compensation so they have to pursue biglaw. Both Big 4 and biglaw offer stressful environments in the vast majority of practice areas, but tax practice can be less stressful at certain times or especially in certain practice areas such as estate matters. I suspect that executive compensation is also a practice area of tax law which is among the least stressful.

[Anonymous User]

I do not have any knowledge about in-house placement from Big 4 tax accounting positions. (However, I can share that the option is likely there, but some clients are a bit abusive toward Big 4 partners & principals because of the constant pressure to keep costs down in the presence of an implied threat to take business to a competing Big 4 accounting firm. Produces an environment of the particular Big 4 firm hoping to place a senior individual with the client while the client wants to keep the Big 4 partner/principle in fear of losing the company as a client.)

Some Big 4 tax practitioners choose to remain at the Senior Manager level due to the very wide pay scale and the lack of any requirement to bring in new clients; essentially, these Big 4 Senior Managers choose to be career-long specialists with a perfectionist personality.

Switching from a Big 4 tax position to a major law firm or to in-house positions often is linked to a professional working relationship with the law firm or corporation while a Big 4 employee; the move is possible if a law firm partner or in-house counsel likes the individual and likes the work product of that Big 4 employee.

Big 4 success is mostly about one's work ethic & willingness to prioritize work over other matters. Initially, Big 4 pay is much lower than biglaw or, as in your situation, boutique law firm pay. In fact, some newly minted attorneys cannot handle their substantial student debt burden on Big 4 compensation so they have to pursue biglaw. Both Big 4 and biglaw offer stressful environments in the vast majority of practice areas, but tax practice can be less stressful at certain times or especially in certain practice areas such as estate matters. I suspect that executive compensation is also a practice area of tax law which is among the least stressful.

Yes I have no debt and graduated above median from a T-14 as a KJD. I just never pursued OCI or biglaw because all the horror stories really got to my head. I also did a bit of litigation and transactional work during my 1L summer and completely hated it. Litigation was research and writing both of which I despise. But transactional was kind of boring as well if I am being honest. But there's so many different types of transactional law, that I think maybe i'll like one.

I have been having second thoughts lately about my decision to work at big 4 because why did I go to law school to end up not technically practicing law. I felt like I should give a law firm at least a bit of a chance before closing that door forever. I did not think going to big 4 would close that door and that I will have options in the future to go to medium sized law firms in general tax. Based off of my research now, i'm thinking that its less likely than I expected because of law firms' perception of big 4 work.

I guess i'll wait and see what happens with the boutique firm. If that comes through i'll strongly consider making the switch even though its outside tax. If that doesn't come through, i'll have to work in big 4 and look for options to switch to a law firm one day or go to a different in-house company. Overall at least its better than being jobless but i'm just pissed and wished I thought about this before when I had the opportunity to use my school to get a law firm job. I quickly wrote it off at the time based off of incomplete information and without thoroughly thinking of the consequences. Maybe it will end up working out for the best.

[CanadianWolf]

Technically, Big 4 accounting firms do engage in the practice of law; however, Big 4 accounting firms have too many resources to be tagged with UPL violations (just ask the state of Texas).

Successful Big 4 employees are incredibly hard workers and successful tax practitioners at Big 4 firms love tax. If you are a grinder, the money will come at a Big 4 accounting firm the closer one gets to 10 years of grinding.

After reading your posts in this thread, I think that you need to get to work, give your best, and quit thinking about pitfalls. Be determined to be among the best at whatever you do and avoid negative thoughts--otherwise those negative thoughts will be self-fulfilling.

P.S. Big 4 tax practitioners are specialists who typically know the law related to their practice area better than the biglaw work that they receive from clients or client's biglaw attorneys. Not sure if this holds true for deferred comp, but it certainly does for deferred comp taxation / tax issues. But, no, Big 4 firms do not draft legal documents for public filings.

[Anonymous User]

Technically, Big 4 accounting firms do engage in the practice of law; however, Big 4 accounting firms have too many resources to be tagged with UPL violations (just ask the state of Texas).

Successful Big 4 employees are incredibly hard workers and successful tax practitioners at Big 4 firms love tax. If you are a grinder, the money will come at a Big 4 accounting firm the closer one gets to 10 years of grinding.

After reading your posts in this thread, I think that you need to get to work, give your best, and quit thinking about pitfalls. Be determined to be among the best at whatever you do and avoid negative thoughts--otherwise those negative thoughts will be self-fulfilling.

P.S. Big 4 tax practitioners are specialists who typically know the law related to their practice area better than the biglaw work that they receive from clients or client's biglaw attorneys. Not sure if this holds true for deferred comp, but it certainly does for deferred comp taxation / tax issues. But, no, Big 4 firms do not draft legal documents for public filings.

Thanks for the hope. I'll do my best there this year and see what happens. Maybe i'll very much enjoy it. I was wondering what your background is? I've been looking at forums regarding big 4 and biglaw and I have seen you commenting since 2010. Did you work in big 4 and biglaw before? How was your experience like and did you like it? What do you do now?

Also would you advise getting a tax LLM from NYU if you decide you want to stick in tax or is it pointless?

[CanadianWolf]

Earning an LLM in Taxation from NYU can be worthwhile for one with a bit of prior experience in tax who wants a career focused on the practice of tax law. NYU's LLM in Taxation program places well (a bit over 40% of tax llm grads each year) with law firms.

For those who desire a career with a Big 4 accounting firm in taxation, an LLM in Taxation from NYU, Georgetown, & Northwestern should yield multiple job opportunities. Other tax llm programs work for those with prior tax experience who earn the highest grade in one or more tax llm courses.

West Coast tax llm programs place most grads in that region.

Interviews with Big 4 WNT offices often involve grillings by multiple partners or principals on specific practice areas within tax law.