OCI Bid List Forum

[KijiStewart]

bro...you need to set your priorities straight.

forget hours, qol, col, political climate, "NFL football team," "solid live music scene"...

NONE of that is gonna matter one iota if you don't have a job. come 3L and you don't have a job lined up, you'll be begging on your knees for just about any biglaw job.

it's fine to have standards but only if you have the credentials to back them up. sure you're at CCN but you'll be judged off your 1L grades/school and even top students at T-14 have a not-so-easy time getting offers in smaller markets to which they have no ties. you're also an international. regional markets are already insular against American citizens with no ties. what makes you think they're gonna be willing to open up to someone with no ties who's not even an American citizen, esp given the hefty sponsorship fees.

assuming you're lucky to find a firm that sponsors you, you might not even make the lottery. sure, since trump got elected, h1b applications have gone down but still your chances are around 50-50. it ain't good. in that case, your only silver lining will be your firm willing to transfer you overseas (i.e. hong kong) for a year and letting you get another shot at the lottery the following year. guess which firms will be more willing to do so? the huge biglaw firms with many overseas offices, many of whom are in NY. and btw, this is totally at the firm's discretion. it's easily possible (and i've seen this firsthand) that the firm just cuts you loose after your h1b app gets denied. you can't really blame the firm either.

idk about your loan situation but if you have loans, then your situation becomes even more precarious. approach OCI like your life depends on it cuz i'm scared you might actually strike out.

1) I feel you re: political climate, NFL team. But what is important to me is not getting worked to death. I think it is an asset to know what one's limitations are, and a firm that consistently expects 70+ hour weeks will not be one where I can stay long because I will burn out and ultimately get canned. For this reason, I'll also mass mail litigation boutiques and in-house positions.

2) Re: NY. If NY is my only option, can I do SA in NY and then apply to change offices to a secondary market for full time? Or, alternatively, would having a NY SA experience under my belt give me decent odds at landing somewhere in a secondary market full time during 3L recruiting season? I'll seriously consider doing an LLM or going home before accepting full time in NY. Maybe my perception of it will change once I actually live there (I'll be at Columbia).

[Anonymous User]

bro...you need to set your priorities straight.

forget hours, qol, col, political climate, "NFL football team," "solid live music scene"...

NONE of that is gonna matter one iota if you don't have a job. come 3L and you don't have a job lined up, you'll be begging on your knees for just about any biglaw job.

it's fine to have standards but only if you have the credentials to back them up. sure you're at CCN but you'll be judged off your 1L grades/school and even top students at T-14 have a not-so-easy time getting offers in smaller markets to which they have no ties. you're also an international. regional markets are already insular against American citizens with no ties. what makes you think they're gonna be willing to open up to someone with no ties who's not even an American citizen, esp given the hefty sponsorship fees.

assuming you're lucky to find a firm that sponsors you, you might not even make the lottery. sure, since trump got elected, h1b applications have gone down but still your chances are around 50-50. it ain't good. in that case, your only silver lining will be your firm willing to transfer you overseas (i.e. hong kong) for a year and letting you get another shot at the lottery the following year. guess which firms will be more willing to do so? the huge biglaw firms with many overseas offices, many of whom are in NY. and btw, this is totally at the firm's discretion. it's easily possible (and i've seen this firsthand) that the firm just cuts you loose after your h1b app gets denied. you can't really blame the firm either.

idk about your loan situation but if you have loans, then your situation becomes even more precarious. approach OCI like your life depends on it cuz i'm scared you might actually strike out.

1) I feel you re: political climate, NFL team. But what is important to me is not getting worked to death. I think it is an asset to know what one's limitations are, and a firm that consistently expects 70+ hour weeks will not be one where I can stay long because I will burn out and ultimately get canned. For this reason, I'll also mass mail litigation boutiques and in-house positions.

2) Re: NY. If NY is my only option, can I do SA in NY and then apply to change offices to a secondary market for full time? Or, alternatively, would having a NY SA experience under my belt give me decent odds at landing somewhere in a secondary market full time during 3L recruiting season? I'll seriously consider doing an LLM or going home before accepting full time in NY. Maybe my perception of it will change once I actually live there (I'll be at Columbia).

Last anon here.

Re: hours – Nothing we say could possibly help you on that front. For example, supposedly Sidley Austin has a great work life balance but I know someone there who goes well past 70 hours on most weeks. It all depend on whatever partner you get assigned to – and whether he or she is an abject psychopath.

As for NY, most firms don't really cooperate with associates' request to change offices (not in their best interest). Yes, you could go through 3L OCI but it is way, way harder to get a job on that front.

[trebekismyhero]

bro...you need to set your priorities straight.

forget hours, qol, col, political climate, "NFL football team," "solid live music scene"...

NONE of that is gonna matter one iota if you don't have a job. come 3L and you don't have a job lined up, you'll be begging on your knees for just about any biglaw job.

it's fine to have standards but only if you have the credentials to back them up. sure you're at CCN but you'll be judged off your 1L grades/school and even top students at T-14 have a not-so-easy time getting offers in smaller markets to which they have no ties. you're also an international. regional markets are already insular against American citizens with no ties. what makes you think they're gonna be willing to open up to someone with no ties who's not even an American citizen, esp given the hefty sponsorship fees.

assuming you're lucky to find a firm that sponsors you, you might not even make the lottery. sure, since trump got elected, h1b applications have gone down but still your chances are around 50-50. it ain't good. in that case, your only silver lining will be your firm willing to transfer you overseas (i.e. hong kong) for a year and letting you get another shot at the lottery the following year. guess which firms will be more willing to do so? the huge biglaw firms with many overseas offices, many of whom are in NY. and btw, this is totally at the firm's discretion. it's easily possible (and i've seen this firsthand) that the firm just cuts you loose after your h1b app gets denied. you can't really blame the firm either.

idk about your loan situation but if you have loans, then your situation becomes even more precarious. approach OCI like your life depends on it cuz i'm scared you might actually strike out.

1) I feel you re: political climate, NFL team. But what is important to me is not getting worked to death. I think it is an asset to know what one's limitations are, and a firm that consistently expects 70+ hour weeks will not be one where I can stay long because I will burn out and ultimately get canned. For this reason, I'll also mass mail litigation boutiques and in-house positions.

2) Re: NY. If NY is my only option, can I do SA in NY and then apply to change offices to a secondary market for full time? Or, alternatively, would having a NY SA experience under my belt give me decent odds at landing somewhere in a secondary market full time during 3L recruiting season? I'll seriously consider doing an LLM or going home before accepting full time in NY. Maybe my perception of it will change once I actually live there (I'll be at Columbia).

Last anon here.

Re: hours – Nothing we say could possibly help you on that front. For example, supposedly Sidley Austin has a great work life balance but I know someone there who goes well past 70 hours on most weeks. It all depend on whatever partner you get assigned to – and whether he or she is an abject psychopath.

As for NY, most firms don't really cooperate with associates' request to change offices (not in their best interest). Yes, you could go through 3L OCI but it is way, way harder to get a job on that front.

To the hours, going to a litigation boutique will probably be longer hours than big law because cases are usually much more leanly staffed. In-house is different, but usually pretty hard to go straight in-house doing any kind of litigation. I would look at insurance companies. I know Allstate and State Farm hire straight through from law school into litigation departments. Pay is only half what big law is, but hours are 9-5.

If you are living in NY now for Columbia, why are you so opposed to doing NYC? Firms don't really want to accommodate transfers as 3Ls, but usually are pretty open after a year or two. I would bid NYC firms that have large offices in cities that you would want to live so transferring would be easier

[KijiStewart]

bro...you need to set your priorities straight.

forget hours, qol, col, political climate, "NFL football team," "solid live music scene"...

NONE of that is gonna matter one iota if you don't have a job. come 3L and you don't have a job lined up, you'll be begging on your knees for just about any biglaw job.

it's fine to have standards but only if you have the credentials to back them up. sure you're at CCN but you'll be judged off your 1L grades/school and even top students at T-14 have a not-so-easy time getting offers in smaller markets to which they have no ties. you're also an international. regional markets are already insular against American citizens with no ties. what makes you think they're gonna be willing to open up to someone with no ties who's not even an American citizen, esp given the hefty sponsorship fees.

assuming you're lucky to find a firm that sponsors you, you might not even make the lottery. sure, since trump got elected, h1b applications have gone down but still your chances are around 50-50. it ain't good. in that case, your only silver lining will be your firm willing to transfer you overseas (i.e. hong kong) for a year and letting you get another shot at the lottery the following year. guess which firms will be more willing to do so? the huge biglaw firms with many overseas offices, many of whom are in NY. and btw, this is totally at the firm's discretion. it's easily possible (and i've seen this firsthand) that the firm just cuts you loose after your h1b app gets denied. you can't really blame the firm either.

idk about your loan situation but if you have loans, then your situation becomes even more precarious. approach OCI like your life depends on it cuz i'm scared you might actually strike out.

1) I feel you re: political climate, NFL team. But what is important to me is not getting worked to death. I think it is an asset to know what one's limitations are, and a firm that consistently expects 70+ hour weeks will not be one where I can stay long because I will burn out and ultimately get canned. For this reason, I'll also mass mail litigation boutiques and in-house positions.

2) Re: NY. If NY is my only option, can I do SA in NY and then apply to change offices to a secondary market for full time? Or, alternatively, would having a NY SA experience under my belt give me decent odds at landing somewhere in a secondary market full time during 3L recruiting season? I'll seriously consider doing an LLM or going home before accepting full time in NY. Maybe my perception of it will change once I actually live there (I'll be at Columbia).

Last anon here.

Re: hours – Nothing we say could possibly help you on that front. For example, supposedly Sidley Austin has a great work life balance but I know someone there who goes well past 70 hours on most weeks. It all depend on whatever partner you get assigned to – and whether he or she is an abject psychopath.

As for NY, most firms don't really cooperate with associates' request to change offices (not in their best interest). Yes, you could go through 3L OCI but it is way, way harder to get a job on that front.

To the hours, going to a litigation boutique will probably be longer hours than big law because cases are usually much more leanly staffed. In-house is different, but usually pretty hard to go straight in-house doing any kind of litigation. I would look at insurance companies. I know Allstate and State Farm hire straight through from law school into litigation departments. Pay is only half what big law is, but hours are 9-5.

If you are living in NY now for Columbia, why are you so opposed to doing NYC? Firms don't really want to accommodate transfers as 3Ls, but usually are pretty open after a year or two. I would bid NYC firms that have large offices in cities that you would want to live so transferring would be easier

Thank you re: insurance companies. I will seriously consider those.

The litigation boutique I did my 1L clerkship for was ideal. They don't hire straight out of 3L so I'm not waisting my time trying to get full time or 2L SA there, but minimum billable hours was 40/week but the more ambitious attorneys who billed excess got rewarded via their bonus. Do the insurance companies have some sort of bonus incentive as well?

[trebekismyhero]

bro...you need to set your priorities straight.

forget hours, qol, col, political climate, "NFL football team," "solid live music scene"...

NONE of that is gonna matter one iota if you don't have a job. come 3L and you don't have a job lined up, you'll be begging on your knees for just about any biglaw job.

it's fine to have standards but only if you have the credentials to back them up. sure you're at CCN but you'll be judged off your 1L grades/school and even top students at T-14 have a not-so-easy time getting offers in smaller markets to which they have no ties. you're also an international. regional markets are already insular against American citizens with no ties. what makes you think they're gonna be willing to open up to someone with no ties who's not even an American citizen, esp given the hefty sponsorship fees.

assuming you're lucky to find a firm that sponsors you, you might not even make the lottery. sure, since trump got elected, h1b applications have gone down but still your chances are around 50-50. it ain't good. in that case, your only silver lining will be your firm willing to transfer you overseas (i.e. hong kong) for a year and letting you get another shot at the lottery the following year. guess which firms will be more willing to do so? the huge biglaw firms with many overseas offices, many of whom are in NY. and btw, this is totally at the firm's discretion. it's easily possible (and i've seen this firsthand) that the firm just cuts you loose after your h1b app gets denied. you can't really blame the firm either.

idk about your loan situation but if you have loans, then your situation becomes even more precarious. approach OCI like your life depends on it cuz i'm scared you might actually strike out.

1) I feel you re: political climate, NFL team. But what is important to me is not getting worked to death. I think it is an asset to know what one's limitations are, and a firm that consistently expects 70+ hour weeks will not be one where I can stay long because I will burn out and ultimately get canned. For this reason, I'll also mass mail litigation boutiques and in-house positions.

2) Re: NY. If NY is my only option, can I do SA in NY and then apply to change offices to a secondary market for full time? Or, alternatively, would having a NY SA experience under my belt give me decent odds at landing somewhere in a secondary market full time during 3L recruiting season? I'll seriously consider doing an LLM or going home before accepting full time in NY. Maybe my perception of it will change once I actually live there (I'll be at Columbia).

Last anon here.

Re: hours – Nothing we say could possibly help you on that front. For example, supposedly Sidley Austin has a great work life balance but I know someone there who goes well past 70 hours on most weeks. It all depend on whatever partner you get assigned to – and whether he or she is an abject psychopath.

As for NY, most firms don't really cooperate with associates' request to change offices (not in their best interest). Yes, you could go through 3L OCI but it is way, way harder to get a job on that front.

To the hours, going to a litigation boutique will probably be longer hours than big law because cases are usually much more leanly staffed. In-house is different, but usually pretty hard to go straight in-house doing any kind of litigation. I would look at insurance companies. I know Allstate and State Farm hire straight through from law school into litigation departments. Pay is only half what big law is, but hours are 9-5.

If you are living in NY now for Columbia, why are you so opposed to doing NYC? Firms don't really want to accommodate transfers as 3Ls, but usually are pretty open after a year or two. I would bid NYC firms that have large offices in cities that you would want to live so transferring would be easier

Thank you re: insurance companies. I will seriously consider those.

The litigation boutique I did my 1L clerkship for was ideal. They don't hire straight out of 3L so I'm not waisting my time trying to get full time or 2L SA there, but minimum billable hours was 40/week but the more ambitious attorneys who billed excess got rewarded via their bonus. Do the insurance companies have some sort of bonus incentive as well?

No idea. I assume some sort of stock/bonus plan, but don't know any specifics

[KijiStewart]

Preliminary bidlist. NY Unless indicated otherwise. I really don't care so much about prestige so not even bothering with Cravath, S&C or Skadden

1. Sidley Austin
2. Davis Polk
3. Kirkland Ellis
4. Greenberg Traurig (Miami)
5. White & Case (Miami)
6. Weil Gotshal (Miami)
7. Morgan Lewis (Boston)
8. Covington (DC)
9. Williams & Connoly (DC)
10. Paul Weiss
11. Debevoise
12. Boies Schiller
13. Hogan Lovells
14. Latham & Watkins (Boston)
15. Mintz Levin (Boston)
16. Baker McKenzie (DC)
17. Wilmer Hale (Boston)
18. Akin Gump
19. Allen & Ovary
20. O'Melvenly & Myers
21.Clifford Chance
22. Cahill Gordon & Reindell
23. DLA Piper
24. Linklaters
25. Winston & Strawn
26. Shearman
27. Reed Smith
28. Wilmer Hale (DC)
29. Proskauer Rose
29. Arnold & Porter (DC)
30. Curtis, Maller-Provost

Can I mass-mail a Holland and Knight office that we weren't allowed to bid on since I'm not bidding for it anywhere (mind you, even if I was bidding Holland & Knight NY, can I mass-mail say Holland & Knight Miami?)

[Joscellin]

Preliminary bidlist. NY Unless indicated otherwise. I really don't care so much about prestige so not even bothering with Cravath, S&C or Skadden

1. Sidley Austin
2. Davis Polk
3. Kirkland Ellis
4. Greenberg Traurig (Miami)
5. White & Case (Miami)
6. Weil Gotshal (Miami)
7. Morgan Lewis (Boston)
8. Covington (DC)
9. Williams & Connoly (DC)
10. Paul Weiss
11. Debevoise
12. Boies Schiller
13. Hogan Lovells
14. Latham & Watkins (Boston)
15. Mintz Levin (Boston)
16. Baker McKenzie (DC)
17. Wilmer Hale (Boston)
18. Akin Gump
19. Allen & Ovary
20. O'Melvenly & Myers
21.Clifford Chance
22. Cahill Gordon & Reindell
23. DLA Piper
24. Linklaters
25. Winston & Strawn
26. Shearman
27. Reed Smith
28. Wilmer Hale (DC)
29. Proskauer Rose
29. Arnold & Porter (DC)
30. Curtis, Maller-Provost

Can I mass-mail a Holland and Knight office that we weren't allowed to bid on since I'm not bidding for it anywhere (mind you, even if I was bidding Holland & Knight NY, can I mass-mail say Holland & Knight Miami?)

You want lit and aren't planning to bid Gibson?

[KijiStewart]

Preliminary bidlist. NY Unless indicated otherwise. I really don't care so much about prestige so not even bothering with Cravath, S&C or Skadden

1. Sidley Austin
2. Davis Polk
3. Kirkland Ellis
4. Greenberg Traurig (Miami)
5. White & Case (Miami)
6. Weil Gotshal (Miami)
7. Morgan Lewis (Boston)
8. Covington (DC)
9. Williams & Connoly (DC)
10. Paul Weiss
11. Debevoise
12. Boies Schiller
13. Hogan Lovells
14. Latham & Watkins (Boston)
15. Mintz Levin (Boston)
16. Baker McKenzie (DC)
17. Wilmer Hale (Boston)
18. Akin Gump
19. Allen & Ovary
20. O'Melvenly & Myers
21.Clifford Chance
22. Cahill Gordon & Reindell
23. DLA Piper
24. Linklaters
25. Winston & Strawn
26. Shearman
27. Reed Smith
28. Wilmer Hale (DC)
29. Proskauer Rose
29. Arnold & Porter (DC)
30. Curtis, Maller-Provost

Can I mass-mail a Holland and Knight office that we weren't allowed to bid on since I'm not bidding for it anywhere (mind you, even if I was bidding Holland & Knight NY, can I mass-mail say Holland & Knight Miami?)

You want lit and aren't planning to bid Gibson?

Thanks. Are all their offices good?

I suspect my primary source for my bid list advice has a pro-transactional bias (he knew I want lit), so if any of the firms above really suck at litigation please let me know.

[Joscellin]

Yeah, they're widely known as an elite Lit firm, though I don't know a ton about the offices other than NY and D.C..

D.C. is definitely tougher to land.

[Carlton_Banks]

From what I know of my own school's historical GPA data, I can't imagine that the DC offices of Williams & Connoly, WilmerHale or Covington would be interested in a transfer that's only top 8% from a TT, barring some out-of-this-world work history.

[cron1834]

From what I know of my own school's historical GPA data, I can't imagine that the DC offices of Williams & Connoly, WilmerHale or Covington would be interested in a transfer that's only top 8% from a TT, barring some out-of-this-world work history.

Yeah, they take top 8% or so from my T14, hard to imagine 8% from a TT is going to cut it.

[KijiStewart]

From what I know of my own school's historical GPA data, I can't imagine that the DC offices of Williams & Connoly, WilmerHale or Covington would be interested in a transfer that's only top 8% from a TT, barring some out-of-this-world work history.

Yeah, they take top 8% or so from my T14, hard to imagine 8% from a TT is going to cut it.

Understood!

Do firms that allow us to bid to multiple cities hold it against us if we elect to do so? I can't imagine they would if they're choosing to allow us to, but just wondering just in case.

[trebekismyhero]

From what I know of my own school's historical GPA data, I can't imagine that the DC offices of Williams & Connoly, WilmerHale or Covington would be interested in a transfer that's only top 8% from a TT, barring some out-of-this-world work history.

Yeah, they take top 8% or so from my T14, hard to imagine 8% from a TT is going to cut it.

Understood!

Do firms that allow us to bid to multiple cities hold it against us if we elect to do so? I can't imagine they would if they're choosing to allow us to, but just wondering just in case.

If one is a more tie conscious city, yes they probably would. If you're bidding offices are NY and DC, then probably not.

[Anonymous User]

Do the insurance companies have some sort of bonus incentive as well?[/quote]

No idea. I assume some sort of stock/bonus plan, but don't know any specifics[/quote]

I have been told that once you work for an insurance company you are pigeon-holed and it's hard to make a move out. Also, Legal is not a profit center, so I would not expect lucrative bonuses. Something to consider. The insurance companies will always be there.

[KijiStewart]

So I didn't get on a journal.

Are the firms gonna grill me for this? If so, can someone help me please with how I should respond. Reply or DM works.

Apparently, there's another chance for me to re-apply to some of them in late August but I feel that the damage is already done.

Thanks.

PS: I have roughly 10 NYC, 1 LA, 2 Boston, 2 London (Im a EU citizen which will last me there a while) and 3 Miami screeners, wish me luck!!

[MrT]

So I didn't get on a journal.

Are the firms gonna grill me for this? If so, can someone help me please with how I should respond. Reply or DM works.

Apparently, there's another chance for me to re-apply to some of them in late August but I feel that the damage is already done.

Thanks.

PS: I have roughly 10 NYC, 1 LA, 2 Boston, 2 London (Im a EU citizen which will last me there a while) and 3 Miami screeners, wish me luck!!

It will not come up.

[Anonymous User]

I am curious how this will turn out for you. Your bid-list has some issues.

The D.C. offices of Williams & Connolly, Covington, and Wilmer Hale are probably out of grade-range. Cahill doesn't really do litigation. They technically have a litigation department, but generally most summers and new associates are doing some type of corporate finance.

White & Case Miami and Weil are great but they are very small satellite offices. They don't have many summer associates, and it's a total crapshoot.

I understand you aren't keen on New York, but New York firms with large summer associate classes are your best bet.

[Anonymous User]

Do the insurance companies have some sort of bonus incentive as well?

No idea. I assume some sort of stock/bonus plan, but don't know any specifics[/quote]

I have been told that once you work for an insurance company you are pigeon-holed and it's hard to make a move out. Also, Legal is not a profit center, so I would not expect lucrative bonuses. Something to consider. The insurance companies will always be there.[/quote]

No crazy bonuses, just your standard corporate amount at that level, no sign on or anything like that. But didn't OP say he/she didn't want to do personal injury? That's all the litigation attorneys do in the offices outside of corporate headquarters (which for State Farm is in IL).

[KijiStewart]

Two questions:

1) Are we actually expected to visit the hospitality suites of firms we already have screeners for

2) Are we supposed to write the interviewing attorney a follow up e-mail the day of (or day after) screener interview