Columbia EIP 2016 Forum

[Anonymous User]

Hey fellow Class of 2018ers,

I didn't see an EIP thread for 2016 so I figured I would start it.

Grades are coming back and the Offers by Honors reports are up on Symplicity, meaning that it's about time to start putting together bidlists for EIP. In this thread, we help one another put together suitable bidlists, share information, assuage fears, offer advice on interviews and callbacks, etc.

Past threads:
2015: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=248971
2014: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=231040
2013: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=211338
2012: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=187757
2011: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=162163

Here are the rules and some tips from last year:

I. Anonymous Handles

We all want to maintain some privacy during this process. That said, it is also nice to keep track of who is saying what. I recommend that everyone pick a handle with which to sign her anonymous posts (although you obviously don’t have to) so that we can keep track of one another.

II. Bidding

The basics of bidlist stuff should be straightforward even if you’re not Socrates: if you think other people are more likely to bid on a firm, you should bid it high. Firms that are less grade-selective or that have fewer interview spots are more competitive, so you should probably rank them higher. Don’t rank a firm high just because you want it, but if you really want a particular firm it might be good to rank it high for your peace of mind. The EIP Failed Bid Report helps with this, although relying too heavily on it could be a mistake (or so I've heard). Finally, spreading bids out between multiple markets increases the risk of striking out, especially if you don't have strong ties to those markets. We’ve all seen the data: there are just more jobs in New York, so NY is a solid backup for folks who are trying to head to California, Chicago, DC, etc.

III. Callbacks

Once we’re at least part-way through the first rings of interviewing hell, people will get callbacks. In past years, people would post the firm name and the initials of the person who interviewed them when they received a callback so that people would know that callbacks had gone out.

Good luck.

- CAGunner

Most of this is copied from last year. Credit goes to the prior OP.

[Anonymous User]

Btw OCS said they'll release the first-failed bid report by end of next week. Anyone have any insights about whether Weil is completely out of reach for a 3.25 and decent interviewer? Trying to decide whether to include them in my bid list.

-Arthur Shelby

[jbagelboy]

everyone, in making your bid choices, keep the #CovingtonList in mind.

[Anonymous User]

everyone, in making your bid choices, keep the #CovingtonList in mind.

seems like firms not moving to 180 will be less competitive?

This might actually be good news for people who are nyc averse.

-CaGunner

[Anonymous User]

A couple of questions:

(1) Is A-, A-, B+, B+, B+, B+, B+ Stone? If it matters, the two A-'s are in 4.0 credit courses, while three of the B+s were 4.0 credits and two were 3.0 credits.

(2) I received a high pass both semesters in LPW. Will any firms care at all, or are they just completely irrelevant? If some firms do care, will they ever be considered when determining if I meet a GPA cut off? (My guess is no.)

Thanks,

Steph Curry

[MCFC]

(2) I received a high pass both semesters in LPW. Will any firms care at all, or are they just completely irrelevant?

In my experience, they did not care at all. I guess it could be different if I had wanted lit, but I seriously doubt it.

[Anonymous User]

How high does my GPA have to be to comfortably bid exclusively norcal? I'm looking at anywhere between a 3.56 and a 3.66 depending on what my last grade looks like.

4 Years of relevant w/e and decent ties. Targeting tax but definitely willing to work in corporate.
CAGunner

[Anonymous User]

Anybody know the strategy for mailing to try and get an offer before EIP? Do you usually wait until you don't get one of your bids to try?

-Bubbles

[Anonymous User]

Does anybody know what the grade distribution is at Columbia? Here is the data I could somewhat find:

Median: ~3.33
33-40: 3.41

Does anybody know where top 1/3 starts, top 20% and top 10% starts?

[dabigchina]

Does anybody know what the grade distribution is at Columbia? Here is the data I could somewhat find:

Median: ~3.33
33-40: 3.41

Does anybody know where top 1/3 starts, top 20% and top 10% starts?

I think there is a calculator on my lsn that allows you to guess based on the median and a couple other data points. I don't know if anybody knows for sure.

[Anonymous User]

Any advice how to use the Offers by Honors list as someone with honors? How do we figure out whether there are grade cutoffs above Stone? Also, for firms with low % of offers to people with honors, does that mean those firms are affirmatively looking for things other than grades, or that they get relatively few bids from people with honors?

-J

[Anonymous User]

A couple of questions:

(1) Is A-, A-, B+, B+, B+, B+, B+ Stone? If it matters, the two A-'s are in 4.0 credit courses, while three of the B+s were 4.0 credits and two were 3.0 credits.

(2) I received a high pass both semesters in LPW. Will any firms care at all, or are they just completely irrelevant? If some firms do care, will they ever be considered when determining if I meet a GPA cut off? (My guess is no.)

Thanks,

Steph Curry

GPA = 3.44. Stone.

Also how do people have all (or all but one) of their grades back already...

[Anonymous User]

I'm jealous of all of you who have grades already.

Raymondluxuryyacht

[Anonymous User]

Guess it's time for my first anon post... here we go EIP

So is it worth our time at all to schedule a meeting/call with OCS staff, or just rely on jbagel and co here?

- Tom James

[Anonymous User]

I'm jealous of all of you who have grades already.

Raymondluxuryyacht

Don't worry, my last grade is gonna come extremely late and rape my GPA.

Guess it's time for my first anon post... here we go EIP

So is it worth our time at all to schedule a meeting/call with OCS staff, or just rely on jbagel and co here?

- Tom James

I was going to just rely on bagel, but I am actually confused about how bidding works for firms that do not have separate interviews for different offices. Do we just bid on the main interview and then tell them our preference or what? From what I've heard, that's pretty much the only type of question that I would trust OCS with.

CAGunner

[Anonymous User]

Any advice how to use the Offers by Honors list as someone with honors? How do we figure out whether there are grade cutoffs above Stone? Also, for firms with low % of offers to people with honors, does that mean those firms are affirmatively looking for things other than grades, or that they get relatively few bids from people with honors?

-J

I was reading last year's thread (because I have no life) and it seems like the only large class size firm with a cutoff significantly above Stone is S&C @ 3.6ish?

Other than that, you have firms like MTO, Covington DC, Williams & Connolly, WRLK, etc. AKA the firms you would expect Kents with LR to go.

ETA took out Irell because not sure if that is true.

-CAGunner

[Anonymous User]

I'm jealous of all of you who have grades already.

Raymondluxuryyacht

Don't worry, my last grade is gonna come extremely late and rape my GPA.

Guess it's time for my first anon post... here we go EIP

So is it worth our time at all to schedule a meeting/call with OCS staff, or just rely on jbagel and co here?

- Tom James

I was going to just rely on bagel, but I am actually confused about how bidding works for firms that do not have separate interviews for different offices. Do we just bid on the main interview and then tell them our preference or what? From what I've heard, that's pretty much the only type of question that I would trust OCS with.

CAGunner

I mean, I'm pretty sure he knows the answer to that though. Also check Symplicity, some firms specify how they want you to do it.

- Tom James

[Anonymous User]

EIP choo choo

Only have one grade back, so praying to keep Stone from the fall.

- Pearl

[jbagelboy]

Guess it's time for my first anon post... here we go EIP

So is it worth our time at all to schedule a meeting/call with OCS staff, or just rely on jbagel and co here?

- Tom James

Im very honored.

To that end, we alums/upperclassmen are here and happy to answer any questions/give pep talks/stroke egos, although when it comes to technical/technological q's re: how to use simplicity, those details may have changed over the years and we may not recall with perfect clarity.

[jbagelboy]

I'm jealous of all of you who have grades already.

Raymondluxuryyacht

Don't worry, my last grade is gonna come extremely late and rape my GPA.

Guess it's time for my first anon post... here we go EIP

So is it worth our time at all to schedule a meeting/call with OCS staff, or just rely on jbagel and co here?

- Tom James

I was going to just rely on bagel, but I am actually confused about how bidding works for firms that do not have separate interviews for different offices. Do we just bid on the main interview and then tell them our preference or what? From what I've heard, that's pretty much the only type of question that I would trust OCS with.

CAGunner

I mean, I'm pretty sure he knows the answer to that though. Also check Symplicity, some firms specify how they want you to do it.

- Tom James

If memory serves, some firms that only have one bid slot available for all offices allow you to select specific offices of interest when making your bid or accepting the interview; you will often also be asked by the interviewee when you get in the room what offices you are interested in, even if there are interviewers for separate offices, since some partners don't know how to use the system/couldn't care less and would rather just write it down on your resume.

[almondjoy]

How high does my GPA have to be to comfortably bid exclusively norcal? I'm looking at anywhere between a 3.56 and a 3.66 depending on what my last grade looks like.

4 Years of relevant w/e and decent ties. Targeting tax but definitely willing to work in corporate.
CAGunner

that GPA is high enough. Whether you should bid exclusively norcal at all is another question. why not through in some large nyc firms just for safety?

[Anonymous User]

How high does my GPA have to be to comfortably bid exclusively norcal? I'm looking at anywhere between a 3.56 and a 3.66 depending on what my last grade looks like.

4 Years of relevant w/e and decent ties. Targeting tax but definitely willing to work in corporate.
CAGunner

that GPA is high enough. Whether you should bid exclusively norcal at all is another question. why not through in some large nyc firms just for safety?

My SO has an irrational (or perfectly rational depending on how you look at it) hate for NYC. Therefore I can't really work in NYC for personal reasons.

Are there any super grade selective firms in SF/SV? I think I've heard MoFo is the only one who has really strict cutoffs for grades? GDC and MTO are probably out of my league too but they don't really interest me anyway.

-CAGunner

[jbagelboy]

How high does my GPA have to be to comfortably bid exclusively norcal? I'm looking at anywhere between a 3.56 and a 3.66 depending on what my last grade looks like.

4 Years of relevant w/e and decent ties. Targeting tax but definitely willing to work in corporate.
CAGunner

that GPA is high enough. Whether you should bid exclusively norcal at all is another question. why not through in some large nyc firms just for safety?

My SO has an irrational (or perfectly rational depending on how you look at it) hate for NYC. Therefore I can't really work in NYC for personal reasons.

Are there any super grade selective firms in SF/SV? I think I've heard MoFo is the only one who has really strict cutoffs for grades?

-CAGunner

I don't think MoFo has *super* hard cutoffs for grades, although sure they are competitive in their home office. If anything, Gibson is maybe stricter. But to be honest, I still think you should include 5-7 new york firms in your bid list. You have 30 bids and to go "all out" SF you really only need ~20 plus mass mail. The honors preferred NY firms don't have very high ffb's so you aren't losing your top spots to them.

This goes out generally to anyone at CLS who is "all in SF" or "all in DC": even if you have honors grades and even if you would NEVER step foot in new york after graduation, include several of the big-class new york firms. Look: when people say SF and DC are tough, that means even with high grades, even with some ties, who knows what could happen, and this is your best shot to get in the room with all the top firms in the country. Don't fuck it up out of some absolutist principle. Having a backup offer in new york isn't just risk averse, its strategic. These firms can also be your backdoor to another market. If you summer at Davis Polk, they'll let you go to Menlo Park for four weeks and most likely accept an offer there for after graduation if you prefer it. If you accept at S&C, they'll let you split with LA and go there after graduation. These scenarios aren't 100% but I've seen them all happen. You'll probably get an SF/SV offer, sure, but there's basically no downside--an hour or so of your life--to including some fancy new york firms, compared to the downside of the alternative.

OF COURSE, if you mass mail a few SF firms in July and get a pre-EIP offer you like, you can always cancel all your new york or non-bay area interviews then. That's totally understandable.

How you explain this to your SO is another matter and I understand that; link to our posts or whatever if you want. but try to explain it

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Reposted from last year because 98% of it will still be relevant.

Okay, here are some things to think about:

(A) Strikeouts are real, even if it doesn't feel that way because nobody talks about it IRL. It was 13% for c/o 2016, and that is not a meaningless number. Everyone thinks it won't happen to them, until it does. Therefore, your number one priority is to get a job. If it happens to be the specific one you were angling for, great. But the downside risk you create by angling towards the hard-to-reach is way, way, WAY larger than the upside risk of getting this firm instead of that firm.



(B) The top three reasons people strike out are, in order:

3. Bad grades--Hopefully you've made your peace with this one by now, because it isn't changing. Bad grades, of course, won't help your case. But CLS has a very strong placement record, and bottom-of-the-class grades do not make it impossible, or even unlikely, that you'll be able to get a Biglaw job. Be comforted with that knowledge, and move on to the things you can actually affect.

2. Bad interviewing--Some people have dynamite charisma. Because you read TLS, that isn't you. So get your ass to OCS and start doing practice interviewing. Do as many as you can until they stop letting you in the building. Email them until they let you in purely on the knowledge that you'll annoy them if they don't. I think I did like seven. If you're so inclined, go to outside consultants who do this for a living. It helps you with the two important skills of EIP: Giving scripted answers that sound like you just came up with them, and giving the consistent energy/enthusiasm that makes it look like you'll shit bricks for the opportunity to talk to Insert Firm Name Here. It's a skill, and just like most other skills, some people are more naturally inclined, but pretty much everyone can get better with practice. If you do a shitton, then by the time EIP rolls around there won't be any questions that you haven't heard before. If you're tremendously awkward, the interviews aren't going to turn you into Don Draper overnight, but they have a decent chance of making you passable enough to hire.

1. Bad bidding--This is the worst thing students do every year. Many, maybe most, of the people who strikeout from CLS are doing something other than the prudent play, which is to fill your schedule with large-class NYC firms. Anything else entails an unnecessary risk. It's up to you to decide how badly you want something that isn't that, and whether your specific situation is such that you can afford to take on some kind of risk. But a good rule of thumb if you want to minimize the probability of debtfucking your life is that non-Stone students should be bidding a minimum of 20 large-class NYC firms. Regardless of GPA, this should include all of the following, unless you have a seriously good reason not to bid one of the above: Cadwalader, Clifford Chance, Fried Frank, Greenberg Traurig, Hogan, K&L Gates, Kaye Scholer, Kramer Levin, Mayer Brown, Milbank, Paul Hastings, Proskauer, Schulte, Sidley, and Willkie. If you are at least median-ish, that list should also include Kirkland, Ropes, and Shearman. To focus on anything besides the firms most likely to hire you if you are non-Stone is a significant risk.



(C) Do as many interviews as you can. OCS told me and other students, and will probably tell you, that you should keep your schedule to no more than 20 or so. That's utter nonsense. There is no risk to doing more interviews and you should not be shutting the door to any opportunity. Yes, it will be tiring. Drink some goddamn coffee. I had two cups each day, and those of you with higher caffeine tolerances will need more. Doesn't matter; there are available pots in the reception area. I was so tired at the end of each day that I immediately crashed when I got home. But I didn't do any interviews with anything less than 100% enthusiasm. I had 28 after bidding and raced like a madman to pick up anything that fit my schedule. For several days I was checking literally every 15 minutes to see if anyone had dropped anything (you don't have to be quite that insane). In the end, one of my offers was from a firm I picked up late in the process. I was lucky to have two others before that, but you never know which one you pick up might be the difference between Biglaw and debtpwnage. In the end, it's something of a numbers game. Think in terms of probability. It's tremendously hard to predict which firms will like you and which won't. There is often not a lot of rhyme or reason as to why Firm A called you back and Firm B didn't. Think of more interviews as more free tickets to a raffle--why would you turn down a chance to increase your odds? I had very bad grades and I don't think I'm any more likable than the next guy, but I had six callbacks, just due to the sheer volume of interviews that I did.



(D) OCS' advice is frequently bad. Take everything they say with a grain of salt. TLS consistently gives better advice. Last year, OCS told one kid that he couldn't get Simpson with a 3.7 without WE. That's nonsense. They told another kid that if he really wanted Cravath, he should bid them in his top five. That's just demonstrably really inefficient. I'm sure there are other "gems" I've forgotten.



(E) I have always been really confused as to why the average student seems to get so few of their lottery bids. This is really not a hard process. People who get fewer than 25 of their bids are doing something wrong. The first failed bid stuff is remarkably consistent year-to-year. Look up where Firm X could not be had last year. Move it a few spots above that to account for variability. This is really so easy and yet so many people in the past have messed it up. Do not be like those people.

[Anonymous User]

TIA jbagel, MO, and others for your help.

For median students, or just around median, what firms in the V20 are NOT completely out of reach? Looking at the honors report, it seems to be Weil, Debevoise, Sidley, Jones Day and White & Case? Are any of those five too risky for a median student and are there any others that I'm forgetting?

p.s. I know vault isn't that useful I just thought it'd be easier to say v20 for the purpose of this question