Kirkland Megathread Forum

[Anonymous User]

Bottom line is this - even with the increased expenses and taxes, you will still make more as a 7th year (1st year NSP) than you did as a 6th year, assuming the bonus scale doesn't decrease due to market conditions. This is because your increase in base + bonus bracket is greater than the added taxes and expense.

The person who claimed to have made LESS as as 7th year than a 6th year either (1) received an outsize bonus as a 6th year which did not repeat in year 7 or (2) thinks that tax deferred compensation paid into a retirement account doesn't count as compensation (which is foolish).

I've run the math and I made slightly less my 7th year vs. my 6th year, all-in (and that includes the half share they put in the bonus figure but goes right into the 401k; if you don't count that, it looks even worse obv). I think you're underestimating how badly you get hit on the combo of insurance + out of state taxes + no SS subsidy. Part of the issue is that by the time you're a 6th year, you're past the huge leaps in pay that you experience as a midlevel; it's not that much of an increase in base or bonus between 6th to 7th year all else equal.

I do agree it's extreme to claim that you'll make less as a 2nd year NSP (8th year) than you do as a 6th year associate--that's not right. But the point that's getting lost anyway from this discussion isn't so much the within-Kirkland comparison as the comparison versus other firms: our peers with an equivalent level of seniority are getting more each paycheck because they're not in an "NSP" structure where they're being paid on a K-1 and treated like partners (with all the downside and none of the upside).

EXACTLY THIS: But the point that's getting lost anyway from this discussion isn't so much the within-Kirkland comparison as the comparison versus other firms: our peers with an equivalent level of seniority are getting more each paycheck because they're not in an "NSP" structure where they're being paid on a K-1 and treated like partners (with all the downside and none of the upside).
__

On top of it, Sidley and other firms now also have better multipliers at 2300 hours and above.

Does anyone actually care. Who cares about +- $15k out of $600k? Isn't it far more relevant how likely you are to make equity partner and a sustained 7 figure income? Or how much you actually like your job?

Talk about missing the forest for the trees.

[Anonymous User]

Bottom line is this - even with the increased expenses and taxes, you will still make more as a 7th year (1st year NSP) than you did as a 6th year, assuming the bonus scale doesn't decrease due to market conditions. This is because your increase in base + bonus bracket is greater than the added taxes and expense.

The person who claimed to have made LESS as as 7th year than a 6th year either (1) received an outsize bonus as a 6th year which did not repeat in year 7 or (2) thinks that tax deferred compensation paid into a retirement account doesn't count as compensation (which is foolish).

I've run the math and I made slightly less my 7th year vs. my 6th year, all-in (and that includes the half share they put in the bonus figure but goes right into the 401k; if you don't count that, it looks even worse obv). I think you're underestimating how badly you get hit on the combo of insurance + out of state taxes + no SS subsidy. Part of the issue is that by the time you're a 6th year, you're past the huge leaps in pay that you experience as a midlevel; it's not that much of an increase in base or bonus between 6th to 7th year all else equal.

I do agree it's extreme to claim that you'll make less as a 2nd year NSP (8th year) than you do as a 6th year associate--that's not right. But the point that's getting lost anyway from this discussion isn't so much the within-Kirkland comparison as the comparison versus other firms: our peers with an equivalent level of seniority are getting more each paycheck because they're not in an "NSP" structure where they're being paid on a K-1 and treated like partners (with all the downside and none of the upside).

EXACTLY THIS: But the point that's getting lost anyway from this discussion isn't so much the within-Kirkland comparison as the comparison versus other firms: our peers with an equivalent level of seniority are getting more each paycheck because they're not in an "NSP" structure where they're being paid on a K-1 and treated like partners (with all the downside and none of the upside).
__

On top of it, Sidley and other firms now also have better multipliers at 2300 hours and above.

Does anyone actually care. Who cares about +- $15k out of $600k? Isn't it far more relevant how likely you are to make equity partner and a sustained 7 figure income? Or how much you actually like your job?

Talk about missing the forest for the trees.

Most NSPs are never going to get a "sustained 7 figure income" and therefore 15k / 25k / 50k (it isn't always just a 15k difference) does matter.

In sort of related news, have any NSPs gotten their revised compensation memo since the firm announced it was going to match Cravath earlier in the week?

[Anonymous User]

Potential Kirkland lateral: "Is it true that you can make less as an NSP than as a 6th year associate?"

KE shill: "Who fuckin cares? Look at how rich our share partners are!"

The latest round of raises were making me a little regretful that I've left biglaw, but thank you KE employee for reminding me why I hated that place so much.

[Anonymous User]

Potential Kirkland lateral: "Is it true that you can make less as an NSP than as a 6th year associate?"

KE shill: "Who fuckin cares? Look at how rich our share partners are!"

The latest round of raises were making me a little regretful that I've left biglaw, but thank you KE employee for reminding me why I hated that place so much.

This is a joke though. Might you make $15k less for one year? Sure. But there are NSPs at Kirkland regularly making $100k more than similarly situated 8th/9th year associates at other firms. And of course if you have reached that level equity partnership becomes a real consideration, swamping out the chump change difference.

I mean, if you hate your life so much that $15k out of $600k eats you alive every day, maybe it is time to find a new career.

[Anonymous User]

Potential Kirkland lateral: "Is it true that you can make less as an NSP than as a 6th year associate?"

KE shill: "Who fuckin cares? Look at how rich our share partners are!"

The latest round of raises were making me a little regretful that I've left biglaw, but thank you KE employee for reminding me why I hated that place so much.

This is a joke though. Might you make $15k less for one year? Sure. But there are NSPs at Kirkland regularly making $100k more than similarly situated 8th/9th year associates at other firms. And of course if you have reached that level equity partnership becomes a real consideration, swamping out the chump change difference.

I mean, if you hate your life so much that $15k out of $600k eats you alive every day, maybe it is time to find a new career.

As a soon to be NSP, when I realize that my comp is below market as a 7th year, I’ll just be reminded that the few rockstars a couple years more senior than me are above market. That will make me feel warm and fuzzy.

[Anonymous User]

Potential Kirkland lateral: "Is it true that you can make less as an NSP than as a 6th year associate?"

KE shill: "Who fuckin cares? Look at how rich our share partners are!"

The latest round of raises were making me a little regretful that I've left biglaw, but thank you KE employee for reminding me why I hated that place so much.

This is a joke though. Might you make $15k less for one year? Sure. But there are NSPs at Kirkland regularly making $100k more than similarly situated 8th/9th year associates at other firms. And of course if you have reached that level equity partnership becomes a real consideration, swamping out the chump change difference.

I mean, if you hate your life so much that $15k out of $600k eats you alive every day, maybe it is time to find a new career.

As a soon to be NSP, when I realize that my comp is below market as a 7th year, I’ll just be reminded that the few rockstars a couple years more senior than me are above market. That will make me feel warm and fuzzy.

Maybe focus at being overwhelmingly good at your job so you can be one of those rockstars rather than cry about $15k? And if you aren't getting the money/respect you want, just lateral somewhere else.

[Anonymous User]

Potential Kirkland lateral: "Is it true that you can make less as an NSP than as a 6th year associate?"

KE shill: "Who fuckin cares? Look at how rich our share partners are!"

The latest round of raises were making me a little regretful that I've left biglaw, but thank you KE employee for reminding me why I hated that place so much.

This is a joke though. Might you make $15k less for one year? Sure. But there are NSPs at Kirkland regularly making $100k more than similarly situated 8th/9th year associates at other firms. And of course if you have reached that level equity partnership becomes a real consideration, swamping out the chump change difference.

I mean, if you hate your life so much that $15k out of $600k eats you alive every day, maybe it is time to find a new career.

As a soon to be NSP, when I realize that my comp is below market as a 7th year, I’ll just be reminded that the few rockstars a couple years more senior than me are above market. That will make me feel warm and fuzzy.

Maybe focus at being overwhelmingly good at your job so you can be one of those rockstars rather than cry about $15k? And if you aren't getting the money/respect you want, just lateral somewhere else.

Why are you ruining this thread? Is this just a necessary rule of thumb that every Kirkland thread on TLS will attract at least one weirdo like this and then the rest of TLS gets to laugh at how nutty the KE folks are? We’ve all heard your bizarre take; most of us aren’t gauging our compensation by either what share partners are making or what a tiny minority of feted NSPs are getting. Move on.

[Anonymous User]

To bring this convo back to ground a bit: I think it's been laid out well what the drawbacks of NSP compensation are, especially in the move from 6th year to your first year or two as an NSP. One of the positives that I don't see getting highlighted is: As far as I can tell, your compensation as an NSP continues to rise each year you're at the firm (the amount will vary). That may seem like a small thing but it's not in my opinion; I think a lot of firms, even in the V25, historically tried to cap associate compensation e.g., after their 8th or 9th year. (That may be changing more now as firms get more comfortable with keeping attorneys as permanent super seniors / income partners.) What that means is that, over time, you'll watch your base keep growing and that allows you to break away.

[Anonymous User]

To bring this convo back to ground a bit: I think it's been laid out well what the drawbacks of NSP compensation are, especially in the move from 6th year to your first year or two as an NSP. One of the positives that I don't see getting highlighted is: As far as I can tell, your compensation as an NSP continues to rise each year you're at the firm (the amount will vary). That may seem like a small thing but it's not in my opinion; I think a lot of firms, even in the V25, historically tried to cap associate compensation e.g., after their 8th or 9th year. (That may be changing more now as firms get more comfortable with keeping attorneys as permanent super seniors / income partners.) What that means is that, over time, you'll watch your base keep growing and that allows you to break away.

This isn’t nothing, but I’m also not sure how helpful it is given the number of people who reach that seniority. There are very few 9th or 10th year NSPs in my group/office. There have been a bunch who left during their 8th or 9th years. Is this when the firm gives the official-not-official word that you’re not making shares and it’s time to leave?

[Anonymous User]

Potential Kirkland lateral: "Is it true that you can make less as an NSP than as a 6th year associate?"

KE shill: "Who fuckin cares? Look at how rich our share partners are!"

The latest round of raises were making me a little regretful that I've left biglaw, but thank you KE employee for reminding me why I hated that place so much.

This is a joke though. Might you make $15k less for one year? Sure. But there are NSPs at Kirkland regularly making $100k more than similarly situated 8th/9th year associates at other firms. And of course if you have reached that level equity partnership becomes a real consideration, swamping out the chump change difference.

I mean, if you hate your life so much that $15k out of $600k eats you alive every day, maybe it is time to find a new career.

When I was a first-year NSP my take home was something like $20k less than the prior year, not $20k less than market. It was something like $40-50k less than I would have taken home at a different market paying firm. If $40-50k is nothing to you, I'll send you my address so you can write me a check. Shit, if $15k is nothing to you I'll send you my address so you can write me a check.

[Anonymous User]

Potential Kirkland lateral: "Is it true that you can make less as an NSP than as a 6th year associate?"

KE shill: "Who fuckin cares? Look at how rich our share partners are!"

The latest round of raises were making me a little regretful that I've left biglaw, but thank you KE employee for reminding me why I hated that place so much.

This is a joke though. Might you make $15k less for one year? Sure. But there are NSPs at Kirkland regularly making $100k more than similarly situated 8th/9th year associates at other firms. And of course if you have reached that level equity partnership becomes a real consideration, swamping out the chump change difference.

I mean, if you hate your life so much that $15k out of $600k eats you alive every day, maybe it is time to find a new career.

When I was a first-year NSP my take home was something like $20k less than the prior year, not $20k less than market. It was something like $40-50k less than I would have taken home at a different market paying firm. If $40-50k is nothing to you, I'll send you my address so you can write me a check. Shit, if $15k is nothing to you I'll send you my address so you can write me a check.

No it wasn't. Stop bullshitting.

[Anonymous User]

Potential Kirkland lateral: "Is it true that you can make less as an NSP than as a 6th year associate?"

KE shill: "Who fuckin cares? Look at how rich our share partners are!"

The latest round of raises were making me a little regretful that I've left biglaw, but thank you KE employee for reminding me why I hated that place so much.

This is a joke though. Might you make $15k less for one year? Sure. But there are NSPs at Kirkland regularly making $100k more than similarly situated 8th/9th year associates at other firms. And of course if you have reached that level equity partnership becomes a real consideration, swamping out the chump change difference.

I mean, if you hate your life so much that $15k out of $600k eats you alive every day, maybe it is time to find a new career.

When I was a first-year NSP my take home was something like $20k less than the prior year, not $20k less than market. It was something like $40-50k less than I would have taken home at a different market paying firm. If $40-50k is nothing to you, I'll send you my address so you can write me a check. Shit, if $15k is nothing to you I'll send you my address so you can write me a check.

Your focus at the level of seniority should on assessing your opportunity to make equity partner or finding a great exit option, not counting pennies. The partner title itself has value. If you don't like the comp, negotiate with the firm or go somewhere else.

[Anonymous User]

Potential Kirkland lateral: "Is it true that you can make less as an NSP than as a 6th year associate?"

KE shill: "Who fuckin cares? Look at how rich our share partners are!"

The latest round of raises were making me a little regretful that I've left biglaw, but thank you KE employee for reminding me why I hated that place so much.

This is a joke though. Might you make $15k less for one year? Sure. But there are NSPs at Kirkland regularly making $100k more than similarly situated 8th/9th year associates at other firms. And of course if you have reached that level equity partnership becomes a real consideration, swamping out the chump change difference.

I mean, if you hate your life so much that $15k out of $600k eats you alive every day, maybe it is time to find a new career.

When I was a first-year NSP my take home was something like $20k less than the prior year, not $20k less than market. It was something like $40-50k less than I would have taken home at a different market paying firm. If $40-50k is nothing to you, I'll send you my address so you can write me a check. Shit, if $15k is nothing to you I'll send you my address so you can write me a check.

No it wasn't. Stop bullshitting.

Classic KE move. "I don't believe this thing you said that is objectively and provably true so you're lying."

[Anonymous User]

Potential Kirkland lateral: "Is it true that you can make less as an NSP than as a 6th year associate?"

KE shill: "Who fuckin cares? Look at how rich our share partners are!"

The latest round of raises were making me a little regretful that I've left biglaw, but thank you KE employee for reminding me why I hated that place so much.

This is a joke though. Might you make $15k less for one year? Sure. But there are NSPs at Kirkland regularly making $100k more than similarly situated 8th/9th year associates at other firms. And of course if you have reached that level equity partnership becomes a real consideration, swamping out the chump change difference.

I mean, if you hate your life so much that $15k out of $600k eats you alive every day, maybe it is time to find a new career.

When I was a first-year NSP my take home was something like $20k less than the prior year, not $20k less than market. It was something like $40-50k less than I would have taken home at a different market paying firm. If $40-50k is nothing to you, I'll send you my address so you can write me a check. Shit, if $15k is nothing to you I'll send you my address so you can write me a check.

Your focus at the level of seniority should on assessing your opportunity to make equity partner or finding a great exit option, not counting pennies. The partner title itself has value. If you don't like the comp, negotiate with the firm or go somewhere else.

I did go somewhere else and my life is awesome now! I'm just answering the question that was asked. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

[Anonymous User]

Is this a "let's talk about things going on at Kirkland" thread or is this a "share your stories about Kirkland" threat because I just had my first negative run-in working across from Kirkland where this dude sent me back a redline AND A REDLINE WITH HANDWRITTEN MARKUPS. Like bruh, you already had the regular redline, why'd you add in hand marks after the fact that I then had to incorporate in myself.

[Anonymous User]

Is this a "let's talk about things going on at Kirkland" thread or is this a "share your stories about Kirkland" threat because I just had my first negative run-in working across from Kirkland where this dude sent me back a redline AND A REDLINE WITH HANDWRITTEN MARKUPS. Like bruh, you already had the regular redline, why'd you add in hand marks after the fact that I then had to incorporate in myself.

I work at K&E and that’s pretty bad. I’d ask them to compile their comments and resend if I was OC

[Anonymous User]

Potential Kirkland lateral: "Is it true that you can make less as an NSP than as a 6th year associate?"

KE shill: "Who fuckin cares? Look at how rich our share partners are!"

The latest round of raises were making me a little regretful that I've left biglaw, but thank you KE employee for reminding me why I hated that place so much.

This is a joke though. Might you make $15k less for one year? Sure. But there are NSPs at Kirkland regularly making $100k more than similarly situated 8th/9th year associates at other firms. And of course if you have reached that level equity partnership becomes a real consideration, swamping out the chump change difference.

I mean, if you hate your life so much that $15k out of $600k eats you alive every day, maybe it is time to find a new career.

When I was a first-year NSP my take home was something like $20k less than the prior year, not $20k less than market. It was something like $40-50k less than I would have taken home at a different market paying firm. If $40-50k is nothing to you, I'll send you my address so you can write me a check. Shit, if $15k is nothing to you I'll send you my address so you can write me a check.

They are effectively making seventh year associates, many of whom are not good, into “partners” in exchange for a compensation cut (anyone staying for the bare minimum is just trading money for a title and potential enhanced marketability after K&E).

[Anonymous User]

Potential Kirkland lateral: "Is it true that you can make less as an NSP than as a 6th year associate?"

KE shill: "Who fuckin cares? Look at how rich our share partners are!"

The latest round of raises were making me a little regretful that I've left biglaw, but thank you KE employee for reminding me why I hated that place so much.

This is a joke though. Might you make $15k less for one year? Sure. But there are NSPs at Kirkland regularly making $100k more than similarly situated 8th/9th year associates at other firms. And of course if you have reached that level equity partnership becomes a real consideration, swamping out the chump change difference.

I mean, if you hate your life so much that $15k out of $600k eats you alive every day, maybe it is time to find a new career.

When I was a first-year NSP my take home was something like $20k less than the prior year, not $20k less than market. It was something like $40-50k less than I would have taken home at a different market paying firm. If $40-50k is nothing to you, I'll send you my address so you can write me a check. Shit, if $15k is nothing to you I'll send you my address so you can write me a check.

Your focus at the level of seniority should on assessing your opportunity to make equity partner or finding a great exit option, not counting pennies. The partner title itself has value. If you don't like the comp, negotiate with the firm or go somewhere else.

I did go somewhere else and my life is awesome now! I'm just answering the question that was asked. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

You can take the associate out of Kirkland. But you can't take Kirkland out of the associate. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

[Anonymous User]

I'll be in Kirkland's chicago office as a corporate summer this year. When do I have to choose a practice area?

And would anyone be willing to shed some light on their experience / impression of the corporate practice groups? I know that individual experiences are subjective but I'm still interested.

bump

[Anonymous User]

Regarding the disconnect between stories we’re hearing about NSP1s vs 6th years, I wonder if it can be explained by state taxes? As a Texas KE associate, I’m thoroughly enjoying not paying any state income taxes and bringing home ~11% more than my NYC counterparts. But from what I understand, at the NSP & SP level, we will all pay an amalgamated tax rate based on some complex formula across offices, that tends to come out somewhere around 5-6%.

So if I’m a Texas 6th year and then suddenly owe 5-6% of state tax as a 7th year, that’s a big loss. If I’m an NYC 6th year paying ~11%, who now pays the amalgamated rate as a 7th year, it seems much better (I don’t know enough about NYC taxes to know whether their tax burden would actually decrease, or stay the same, but whatever it is will feel less painful than a TX NSP who’s used to pay 0%).

Just a theory.

[Anonymous User]

I'll be in Kirkland's chicago office as a corporate summer this year. When do I have to choose a practice area?

And would anyone be willing to shed some light on their experience / impression of the corporate practice groups? I know that individual experiences are subjective but I'm still interested.

bump

Think you only need to commit between corp or litigation. If you are already corp, don't think you actually need to choose a practice area until end of your second year. Would ask your question regarding experience / impression to ppl you meet at summer, rather than on here.

[Anonymous User]

I'll be in Kirkland's chicago office as a corporate summer this year. When do I have to choose a practice area?

And would anyone be willing to shed some light on their experience / impression of the corporate practice groups? I know that individual experiences are subjective but I'm still interested.

bump

Think you only need to commit between corp or litigation. If you are already corp, don't think you actually need to choose a practice area until end of your second year. Would ask your question regarding experience / impression to ppl you meet at summer, rather than on here.

People tend to be less honest in person because there is no anonymity. I appreciate the insight into only having to commit to corp but no practice area.

I will continue to welcome anecdotes or impressions about Chicago corporate practice areas because I feel people speak more freely anonymously.

[Anonymous User]

I'll be in Kirkland's chicago office as a corporate summer this year. When do I have to choose a practice area?

And would anyone be willing to shed some light on their experience / impression of the corporate practice groups? I know that individual experiences are subjective but I'm still interested.

bump

Think you only need to commit between corp or litigation. If you are already corp, don't think you actually need to choose a practice area until end of your second year. Would ask your question regarding experience / impression to ppl you meet at summer, rather than on here.

People tend to be less honest in person because there is no anonymity. I appreciate the insight into only having to commit to corp but no practice area.

I will continue to welcome anecdotes or impressions about Chicago corporate practice areas because I feel people speak more freely anonymously.

I’m at KE Houston and as far as I know Chicago would operate the same way. For the summer, you just need to pick transactional vs litigation. Once you start full-time it’s the same thing. In corporate, it seems like we have approximately two years to fuck around and try whatever we want. I can’t imagine a firm having more flexibility than what we have here (at least as a junior).

I’ll save my impressions of practice groups because that’ll probably differ more by office, though these days many of my deals involve at least some cross-staffing with other offices. Hopefully someone in Chicago can give you insight about that!

[Anonymous User]

Regarding the disconnect between stories we’re hearing about NSP1s vs 6th years, I wonder if it can be explained by state taxes? As a Texas KE associate, I’m thoroughly enjoying not paying any state income taxes and bringing home ~11% more than my NYC counterparts. But from what I understand, at the NSP & SP level, we will all pay an amalgamated tax rate based on some complex formula across offices, that tends to come out somewhere around 5-6%.

So if I’m a Texas 6th year and then suddenly owe 5-6% of state tax as a 7th year, that’s a big loss. If I’m an NYC 6th year paying ~11%, who now pays the amalgamated rate as a 7th year, it seems much better (I don’t know enough about NYC taxes to know whether their tax burden would actually decrease, or stay the same, but whatever it is will feel less painful than a TX NSP who’s used to pay 0%).

Just a theory.

It’s this along with other circumstance-dependent factors. For example, the amount of lost health insurance subsidy when moving from associate to NSP varies depending on what coverage level you elect (e.g., single individual versus family/dependent coverage). You can also elect different levels of newly-mandatory insurance, estimated quarterly tax payments vary by individual partner, etc.

[Anonymous User]

I'll be in Kirkland's chicago office as a corporate summer this year. When do I have to choose a practice area?

And would anyone be willing to shed some light on their experience / impression of the corporate practice groups? I know that individual experiences are subjective but I'm still interested.

bump

Think you only need to commit between corp or litigation. If you are already corp, don't think you actually need to choose a practice area until end of your second year. Would ask your question regarding experience / impression to ppl you meet at summer, rather than on here.

People tend to be less honest in person because there is no anonymity. I appreciate the insight into only having to commit to corp but no practice area.

I will continue to welcome anecdotes or impressions about Chicago corporate practice areas because I feel people speak more freely anonymously.

I’m at KE Houston and as far as I know Chicago would operate the same way. For the summer, you just need to pick transactional vs litigation. Once you start full-time it’s the same thing. In corporate, it seems like we have approximately two years to fuck around and try whatever we want. I can’t imagine a firm having more flexibility than what we have here (at least as a junior).

I’ll save my impressions of practice groups because that’ll probably differ more by office, though these days many of my deals involve at least some cross-staffing with other offices. Hopefully someone in Chicago can give you insight about that!

As a general matter, you will be actively encouraged to work on matters within many different corporate groups both during your summer and in your first 2-3 years as an associate at the firm — M&A (both public and private), debt, funds, capital markets, etc. At some point around years 3-4 (or earlier if you so choose) you will generally be expected to begin to focus and narrow the scope of your practice primarily to one of the corporate groups (those mentioned above being among the main, but certainly not only, options).

Have been at K&E for a while, glad to answer any other questions as well.