PHD/JD or JD or PHD ？Need some Advice!! Forum

[yfang12]

Here is my situation, I graduate in 2016 and went back to China, I am attending law school now here in China ( Top 5 LS in China)。
My BA is in Political Science and my LS concentration is in International Public Law ( My thesis is related to international strategy ).

China's LS programs are all three years program but if you can get all A's the first year and publish 2+ paper before graduation you can apply to graduate early. So far I already published 2 papers and had all A's this year, I will be graduating in Jun 2020.

For some family reasons, I will be going back to U.S after I graduate, and I am wondering if I should go with a PHD/JD in international relation or JD or PHD or PHD then JD ？

My end game is that I want to teach in law schools, but from what I heard it is a hard job to get. I don't mind teaching in a different department, but I really really enjoyed my time at law school and I love international public law.

My LSAT is 169, GRE is 332, I had all A's through law school (So probably 4.0) , published 2 papers with in a year (relating to international public law), joined debated team in law school, had 2 years middle level management position experience in a prestige NGO (In China) before attending law school, and I am also a part time NSDA coach here in China now.

I had many working experience during college on presidential campaign, republican party local offices and I taught political science and math in a local high school during my senior year too.

The problem is I spend too much time working I flunked several classes dueing college, my LSAC GPA is 2.79.

I did a 21 S.H writing certificate program from my undergraduate school upon graduation (Online) and got a 3.76, but I dont think that matters.

I contact several universities regarding their PHD programs in international relation and related field, couple of them replied back with intent to accept me, one of them has a PHD/JD program. The program will take about 6-7 years (depending on how well my PHD dissertation goes) , the first 6 years will be sponsored by the PHD program with full tuition + stipend, and the professor who wants me as his PHD said he will be more than happy to help me get into the PHD/JD program.

This university's law program is ranked between T20 - T40.

If I apply straight into a law program with a higher LSAT, I can probably get into a better school (Maybe even a low T14?)

I heard you need to attend a very good law school in order to be a professor, I know my LSAC GPA is done deal, I am just wondering what is the best option for me.

Should I go with the PHD/JD?
Or should I attend a better law school?
Or should I apply to law school after a phd maybe other T14's will like me better ?
Or I can just forget about the law school part and finish my PHD as soon as I can because there is no way in hell I will be a law school professor since I flunked my LSAC GPA?

Wow the post is long.
thank you all for reading it.

[yfang12]

My mistake, the department will offer assistantship for 5 years, not 6. So I will probably be paying for one year of law school.

[albanach]

You're a massive splitter with a college GPA well below the typical floor of every T-14 school. Your LSAT is only above the 75th presentile at two T-14 schools, and then only by a single point.

I think you need to retake the LSAT and get that score into the 170s, ideally hitting 99th percentile so you stand out. Even then it's a crapshoot. I've no idea how highly US law schools will regard your Chinese legal education.

An LLM would be an easier entry into the US legal market. Maybe look for schools that would let you apply to the LLM and transfer to the JD preferably with course credit? Then you'd free the school from having to report that GPA.

[yfang12]

You're a massive splitter with a college GPA well below the typical floor of every T-14 school. Your LSAT is only above the 75th presentile at two T-14 schools, and then only by a single point.

I think you need to retake the LSAT and get that score into the 170s, ideally hitting 99th percentile so you stand out. Even then it's a crapshoot. I've no idea how highly US law schools will regard your Chinese legal education.

An LLM would be an easier entry into the US legal market. Maybe look for schools that would let you apply to the LLM and transfer to the JD preferably with course credit? Then you'd free the school from having to report that GPA.

Since I dont want to practice law as a lawyer, I dont know how much difference would a lower 14 make from a T20-40.

For me , I mostly want to be a law professor, then a professor of any kind, then a ngo employee or a member of the government think tank, so I am not sure if I should take up on the offer for a PHD/JD at a T20-40 school.

I mean, if I went to a lower T14 like GT or Cornell, would it be much easier to get a job as a law professor then if I went to law school at UM or Emory or Iowa?

I only have another half year left before applying, if getting in a lower T14 makes very little difference academia wise from a T20-40, I probably wold stop wasting my time on LSAT, since I do want to publish another paper before graduating.

[albanach]

Since I dont want to practice law as a lawyer, I dont know how much difference would a lower 14 make from a T20-40.

For me , I mostly want to be a law professor, then a professor of any kind, then a ngo employee or a member of the government think tank, so I am not sure if I should take up on the offer for a PHD/JD at a T20-40 school.

I mean, if I went to a lower T14 like GT or Cornell, would it be much easier to get a job as a law professor then if I went to law school at UM or Emory or Iowa?

I only have another half year left before applying, if getting in a lower T14 makes very little difference academia wise from a T20-40, I probably wold stop wasting my time on LSAT, since I do want to publish another paper before graduating.

The vast majority of my professors had practical experience at big firms. What exactly do you see are your selling points for the hugely competitive field of legal academia as a new graduate from a lower ranked school and with zero practical experience? They also generally clerked at the federal court level - do the schools you're considering have any federal appellate clerks in their recent graduating classes?

I think generally it's a challenge for a graduate of a lower ranked school to gain employment at a higher-ranked one - at least in the absence of significant practical experience that would otherwise be of value, like an AUSA who prosecuted a hugely significant matter.

I could be wrong, but I don't see an easy route into legal academia from outside the T-14.

[yfang12]

Since I dont want to practice law as a lawyer, I dont know how much difference would a lower 14 make from a T20-40.

For me , I mostly want to be a law professor, then a professor of any kind, then a ngo employee or a member of the government think tank, so I am not sure if I should take up on the offer for a PHD/JD at a T20-40 school.

I mean, if I went to a lower T14 like GT or Cornell, would it be much easier to get a job as a law professor then if I went to law school at UM or Emory or Iowa?

I only have another half year left before applying, if getting in a lower T14 makes very little difference academia wise from a T20-40, I probably wold stop wasting my time on LSAT, since I do want to publish another paper before graduating.

The vast majority of my professors had practical experience at big firms. What exactly do you see are your selling points for the hugely competitive field of legal academia as a new graduate from a lower ranked school and with zero practical experience? They also generally clerked at the federal court level - do the schools you're considering have any federal appellate clerks in their recent graduating classes?

I think generally it's a challenge for a graduate of a lower ranked school to gain employment at a higher-ranked one - at least in the absence of significant practical experience that would otherwise be of value, like an AUSA who prosecuted a hugely significant matter.

I could be wrong, but I don't see an easy route into legal academia from outside the T-14.

Oh I didnt know that, most of the law professors here in China went straight into a teaching position after about 10 years of legal education.

What if I obtain a PHD in Law from China, would that help?

I was offered a chance to get a phd from my current school for only three more years (meaning 5 years for a master and a phd), and do couple long term internship at law firms during that time, would that help me in someway ?

The thing is I am an international student, every year only 15% of the people who enter the visa lottery can get a visa, meaning even if I can get a job practicing as a lawyer upon graduation, and the firm is nice enough to support me for a visa, I only have 15% chance getting a work visa, I dont really have the luxury to practice for years while waiting for a opening at any law schools.

[Lxwind]

Since I dont want to practice law as a lawyer, I dont know how much difference would a lower 14 make from a T20-40.

For me , I mostly want to be a law professor, then a professor of any kind, then a ngo employee or a member of the government think tank, so I am not sure if I should take up on the offer for a PHD/JD at a T20-40 school.

I mean, if I went to a lower T14 like GT or Cornell, would it be much easier to get a job as a law professor then if I went to law school at UM or Emory or Iowa?

I only have another half year left before applying, if getting in a lower T14 makes very little difference academia wise from a T20-40, I probably wold stop wasting my time on LSAT, since I do want to publish another paper before graduating.

The vast majority of my professors had practical experience at big firms. What exactly do you see are your selling points for the hugely competitive field of legal academia as a new graduate from a lower ranked school and with zero practical experience? They also generally clerked at the federal court level - do the schools you're considering have any federal appellate clerks in their recent graduating classes?

I think generally it's a challenge for a graduate of a lower ranked school to gain employment at a higher-ranked one - at least in the absence of significant practical experience that would otherwise be of value, like an AUSA who prosecuted a hugely significant matter.

I could be wrong, but I don't see an easy route into legal academia from outside the T-14.

Oh I didnt know that, most of the law professors here in China went straight into a teaching position after about 10 years of legal education.

What if I obtain a PHD in Law from China, would that help?

I was offered a chance to get a phd from my current school for only three more years (meaning 5 years for a master and a phd), and do couple long term internship at law firms during that time, would that help me in someway ?

The thing is I am an international student, every year only 15% of the people who enter the visa lottery can get a visa, meaning even if I can get a job practicing as a lawyer upon graduation, and the firm is nice enough to support me for a visa, I only have 15% chance getting a work visa, I dont really have the luxury to practice for years while waiting for a opening at any law schools.

Where did you get the 15% stats? If you are referring to the H1B lottery, for students who have a master's degree or higher from a US university, the chance is around 55%. Biglaw won't have a problem sponsoring an H1B visa, the problem is they may be the only ones willing to sponsor, and thus graduating from a non T-14 school, or even from a lower T-14 school as an international student may leave you with limited employment opportunities in the US.

[albanach]

Where did you get the 15% stats? If you are referring to the H1B lottery, for students who have a master's degree or higher from a US university, the chance is around 55%. Biglaw won't have a problem sponsoring an H1B visa, the problem is they may be the only ones willing to sponsor, and thus graduating from a non T-14 school, or even from a lower T-14 school as an international student may leave you with limited employment opportunities in the US.

To be fair, every academic institution will be intimately familiar with the visa sponsorship process, since it's so common when bringing in foreign academics. That said, finding employment as law faculty when graduating from a school outside the T-14 will still be extraordinarily difficult, if not impossible.

[Lxwind]

Where did you get the 15% stats? If you are referring to the H1B lottery, for students who have a master's degree or higher from a US university, the chance is around 55%. Biglaw won't have a problem sponsoring an H1B visa, the problem is they may be the only ones willing to sponsor, and thus graduating from a non T-14 school, or even from a lower T-14 school as an international student may leave you with limited employment opportunities in the US.

To be fair, every academic institution will be intimately familiar with the visa sponsorship process, since it's so common when bringing in foreign academics. That said, finding employment as law faculty when graduating from a school outside the T-14 will still be extraordinarily difficult, if not impossible.

To clarify, I was only commenting visa issues regarding the “practice first” part. Higher institutions are H1B cap exempt, meaning there is no need to win the lottery, as long as someone sponsors, there is a high chance to get the visa. The problem is indeed finding employment. I’d suggest OP to check faculty profiles from a lot of law schools and get a sense of who might be competitive - especially among those who earned a BA and/or MA outside of the US.

[yfang12]

Since I dont want to practice law as a lawyer, I dont know how much difference would a lower 14 make from a T20-40.

For me , I mostly want to be a law professor, then a professor of any kind, then a ngo employee or a member of the government think tank, so I am not sure if I should take up on the offer for a PHD/JD at a T20-40 school.

I mean, if I went to a lower T14 like GT or Cornell, would it be much easier to get a job as a law professor then if I went to law school at UM or Emory or Iowa?

I only have another half year left before applying, if getting in a lower T14 makes very little difference academia wise from a T20-40, I probably wold stop wasting my time on LSAT, since I do want to publish another paper before graduating.

The vast majority of my professors had practical experience at big firms. What exactly do you see are your selling points for the hugely competitive field of legal academia as a new graduate from a lower ranked school and with zero practical experience? They also generally clerked at the federal court level - do the schools you're considering have any federal appellate clerks in their recent graduating classes?

I think generally it's a challenge for a graduate of a lower ranked school to gain employment at a higher-ranked one - at least in the absence of significant practical experience that would otherwise be of value, like an AUSA who prosecuted a hugely significant matter.

I could be wrong, but I don't see an easy route into legal academia from outside the T-14.

Oh I didnt know that, most of the law professors here in China went straight into a teaching position after about 10 years of legal education.

What if I obtain a PHD in Law from China, would that help?

I was offered a chance to get a phd from my current school for only three more years (meaning 5 years for a master and a phd), and do couple long term internship at law firms during that time, would that help me in someway ?

The thing is I am an international student, every year only 15% of the people who enter the visa lottery can get a visa, meaning even if I can get a job practicing as a lawyer upon graduation, and the firm is nice enough to support me for a visa, I only have 15% chance getting a work visa, I dont really have the luxury to practice for years while waiting for a opening at any law schools.

Where did you get the 15% stats? If you are referring to the H1B lottery, for students who have a master's degree or higher from a US university, the chance is around 55%. Biglaw won't have a problem sponsoring an H1B visa, the problem is they may be the only ones willing to sponsor, and thus graduating from a non T-14 school, or even from a lower T-14 school as an international student may leave you with limited employment opportunities in the US.

I thought it was 55% too, then I read a article today, not only there are more people applying for H1b this year, Trump also implemented other review process on h1b too, so this years number was 16.8% ( this years lottary result just came out few days ago) for people with master or above.

I email a professor for a lower tier lower school, he went to a T14-20 school, he said that having a PHD would defiantly help especially if you have a PhD in law, however I m not sure so much would it help if I only attend a T30-40 school.

[Lxwind]

Since I dont want to practice law as a lawyer, I dont know how much difference would a lower 14 make from a T20-40.

For me , I mostly want to be a law professor, then a professor of any kind, then a ngo employee or a member of the government think tank, so I am not sure if I should take up on the offer for a PHD/JD at a T20-40 school.

I mean, if I went to a lower T14 like GT or Cornell, would it be much easier to get a job as a law professor then if I went to law school at UM or Emory or Iowa?

I only have another half year left before applying, if getting in a lower T14 makes very little difference academia wise from a T20-40, I probably wold stop wasting my time on LSAT, since I do want to publish another paper before graduating.

The vast majority of my professors had practical experience at big firms. What exactly do you see are your selling points for the hugely competitive field of legal academia as a new graduate from a lower ranked school and with zero practical experience? They also generally clerked at the federal court level - do the schools you're considering have any federal appellate clerks in their recent graduating classes?

I think generally it's a challenge for a graduate of a lower ranked school to gain employment at a higher-ranked one - at least in the absence of significant practical experience that would otherwise be of value, like an AUSA who prosecuted a hugely significant matter.

I could be wrong, but I don't see an easy route into legal academia from outside the T-14.

Oh I didnt know that, most of the law professors here in China went straight into a teaching position after about 10 years of legal education.

What if I obtain a PHD in Law from China, would that help?

I was offered a chance to get a phd from my current school for only three more years (meaning 5 years for a master and a phd), and do couple long term internship at law firms during that time, would that help me in someway ?

The thing is I am an international student, every year only 15% of the people who enter the visa lottery can get a visa, meaning even if I can get a job practicing as a lawyer upon graduation, and the firm is nice enough to support me for a visa, I only have 15% chance getting a work visa, I dont really have the luxury to practice for years while waiting for a opening at any law schools.

Where did you get the 15% stats? If you are referring to the H1B lottery, for students who have a master's degree or higher from a US university, the chance is around 55%. Biglaw won't have a problem sponsoring an H1B visa, the problem is they may be the only ones willing to sponsor, and thus graduating from a non T-14 school, or even from a lower T-14 school as an international student may leave you with limited employment opportunities in the US.

I thought it was 55% too, then I read a article today, not only there are more people applying for H1b this year, Trump also implemented other review process on h1b too, so this years number was 16.8% ( this years lottary result just came out few days ago) for people with master or above.

I email a professor for a lower tier lower school, he went to a T14-20 school, he said that having a PHD would defiantly help especially if you have a PhD in law, however I m not sure so much would it help if I only attend a T30-40 school.

I’m fairly certain that 16.8% is not the overall chance of getting selected. The amount of petitions went up just a little bit this year, and the new process actually gives people with a master’s degree or higher a second chance in a second pool. The 16.8% may be referring to the second round within the master’s cap pool, definitely not the overall chance. Check this: https://www.immi-usa.com/h1b-lottery-20 ... s-process/

I know this because I’m also a Chinese student, currently working in the US. It is crazy to think that the chance would drop from more than 50% to under 20% within a year, even with all those rule changes.