AA Woman wanting to stay local to Baltimore is an Ivy League Worth it Forum

[Jmjm4211]

I am a AA woman with a 3.8 GPA and Pt’ing at 174. I know that puts me in a good spot for the ivys or atleast a t14 the only con is that I want to stay in my hometown of Baltimore and as other post have noted the Baltimore law scene is very ties-based and typically hires from the local law schools UMD or UBalt. I’m currently engaged and my partner has a job locally as a software engineer. All of my connections are in Baltimore for the most part and I have no desire to scoot over to DC and deal with their law scene. Nor do I have an interest in trading in my sqft in Baltimore to go live in a box in NYC. I know it would look good on paper if I did attend one of these schools but is it worth the extra stress and the uprooting of my life just to end up back at home?

Sidenote : I also have a fear that the micro-aggressions I would experience at a t-14 would be exponentially worst.

If anyone could give me some guidance on this is would be greatly appreciated.

[Anonymous User]

You clearly are looking for permission to stay in Baltimore, so just stay in Baltimore. There's no rule that says you have to go to an elite school just because you can probably get in. If your GPA and LSAT practice tests are any indication, then you'll probably get a huge scholarship to the local Baltimore school and do really well there. I don't think microaggressions will be noticeably worse at a T14 compared to anywhere else (I'm Asian American and went to NYU Law and had no real issue with this), but of course being African American is a unique thing, so take my experience with a grain of salt.

Also, just FYI, this whole thought process you have going on is premature. Just to bring you down to earth a little bit, you haven't actually gotten a 174 yet. A lot of people PT at higher (sometimes dramatically higher) scores than what they actually ultimately receive. Get your actual score, get into a bunch of schools, and then start making decisions like this.

[Anonymous User]

Some of this depends on what you want to do with your law degree. If you know you want to work for a Baltimore firm, or maybe local government, a local school (especially for cheap) is a great option if you want to stay in Baltimore for the long haul. You will benefit from the local schools' networks. If you excel and graduate at the top of your class, that can provide a lot of the benefit of a national school (maybe not as much for all people, but eh, you can't impress everyone all the time).

If you want to be able to move around nationally and compete for national jobs at the top of the legal profession, a top-ranked school becomes more important. But it sounds like that's not a consideration for you.

Some people will urge you to go to the top school possible b/c you never know what you're going to want to do and if you change your mind, if you want to shoot for the stars nationally, then a top school opens more doors. That's probably true, but I think there's limited utility to optimizing for any and every possible future goal you might decide you want 10 years from now, if it's going to interfere with what you want to do now. (If you were just asking about options and didn't have a strong desire to stay in Baltimore my answer might be different, but you do want to stay in Baltimore, which is totally reasonable.)

I also think that school name (and your success in school) is important in determining your options immediately post-graduation, but the longer you're out, the more what you've done and your reputation in your legal community outweighs the name on your diploma.

That said, I think someone with local ties who goes away to a national school is still going to be a strong candidate for Baltimore jobs, especially if you make the effort to work in Baltimore during the summers. But that's not a reason you *have* go to to a top school.

Last point is that I'll be honest, I'm assuming with your GPA and if you perform up to standard on the LSAT, you have the potential to do very well at one of the Baltimore schools, but it is important to note that that's not guaranteed. Not everyone "gets" law school exams right away for a variety of reasons. So it is important to look at what the median options are out of those schools and whether you'd be happy with those. Are you confident about being able to network and hustle to get a job if your grades aren't at the level that will open doors for you on paper? Are you interested something like being an ADA/PD, or working for legal aid, where grades are less important than demonstrated commitment and experience? As long as you go in with your eyes open to what you need to do to succeed, I think Baltimore local schools are reasonable option. If you want to (for lack of a better way to describe this) have a job (especially a lucrative one) essentially handed to you by virtue of the school you attend, you probably want to go to a T14.

(T14ers, this isn't to denigrate the work you put in to get jobs, but the point of going to a T14 is that those jobs are on some level presented to you, and while the biglaw OCI grind and even pre-OCI applications can be exhausting, that's not quite the same as having to go out and find jobs in the way that happens at other schools.)

(I would probably recommend Carey over U of Baltimore, but that's me being a little bit of a snob - how much money you get from each is going to be a big consideration. Also, for reference, I sort of did what you're proposing - I went to the state flagship in a state with 2 law schools and no T-14s. I actually have moved around the country after graduation, but my classmates who've stayed in our school market have generally done well in that market. Or at least, the ones who haven't, it's not b/c of the school they went to.)

[Jmjm4211]

You clearly are looking for permission to stay in Baltimore, so just stay in Baltimore. There's no rule that says you have to go to an elite school just because you can probably get in. If your GPA and LSAT practice tests are any indication, then you'll probably get a huge scholarship to the local Baltimore school and do really well there. I don't think microaggressions will be noticeably worse at a T14 compared to anywhere else (I'm Asian American and went to NYU Law and had no real issue with this), but of course being African American is a unique thing, so take my experience with a grain of salt.

Also, just FYI, this whole thought process you have going on is premature. Just to bring you down to earth a little bit, you haven't actually gotten a 174 yet. A lot of people PT at higher (sometimes dramatically higher) scores than what they actually ultimately receive. Get your actual score, get into a bunch of schools, and then start making decisions like this.

I agree with the last part the whole post is a bit premature but as an AA woman, I try to be strategic about my steps. Also, I'm aware that my practice test is just a practice test and I could very well get a lower school on the real thing. This is just a forum for advice so that's exactly what I was asking for, didn't need anyone to "bring me back to earth".

[Jmjm4211]

Some of this depends on what you want to do with your law degree. If you know you want to work for a Baltimore firm, or maybe local government, a local school (especially for cheap) is a great option if you want to stay in Baltimore for the long haul. You will benefit from the local schools' networks. If you excel and graduate at the top of your class, that can provide a lot of the benefit of a national school (maybe not as much for all people, but eh, you can't impress everyone all the time).

If you want to be able to move around nationally and compete for national jobs at the top of the legal profession, a top-ranked school becomes more important. But it sounds like that's not a consideration for you.

Some people will urge you to go to the top school possible b/c you never know what you're going to want to do and if you change your mind, if you want to shoot for the stars nationally, then a top school opens more doors. That's probably true, but I think there's limited utility to optimizing for any and every possible future goal you might decide you want 10 years from now, if it's going to interfere with what you want to do now. (If you were just asking about options and didn't have a strong desire to stay in Baltimore my answer might be different, but you do want to stay in Baltimore, which is totally reasonable.)

I also think that school name (and your success in school) is important in determining your options immediately post-graduation, but the longer you're out, the more what you've done and your reputation in your legal community outweighs the name on your diploma.

That said, I think someone with local ties who goes away to a national school is still going to be a strong candidate for Baltimore jobs, especially if you make the effort to work in Baltimore during the summers. But that's not a reason you *have* go to to a top school.

Last point is that I'll be honest, I'm assuming with your GPA and if you perform up to standard on the LSAT, you have the potential to do very well at one of the Baltimore schools, but it is important to note that that's not guaranteed. Not everyone "gets" law school exams right away for a variety of reasons. So it is important to look at what the median options are out of those schools and whether you'd be happy with those. Are you confident about being able to network and hustle to get a job if your grades aren't at the level that will open doors for you on paper? Are you interested something like being an ADA/PD, or working for legal aid, where grades are less important than demonstrated commitment and experience? As long as you go in with your eyes open to what you need to do to succeed, I think Baltimore local schools are reasonable option. If you want to (for lack of a better way to describe this) have a job (especially a lucrative one) essentially handed to you by virtue of the school you attend, you probably want to go to a T14.

(T14ers, this isn't to denigrate the work you put in to get jobs, but the point of going to a T14 is that those jobs are on some level presented to you, and while the biglaw OCI grind and even pre-OCI applications can be exhausting, that's not quite the same as having to go out and find jobs in the way that happens at other schools.)

(I would probably recommend Carey over U of Baltimore, but that's me being a little bit of a snob - how much money you get from each is going to be a big consideration. Also, for reference, I sort of did what you're proposing - I went to the state flagship in a state with 2 law schools and no T-14s. I actually have moved around the country after graduation, but my classmates who've stayed in our school market have generally done well in that market. Or at least, the ones who haven't, it's not b/c of the school they went to.)

Thank you for this insightful response. I'm honestly more interested at this moment in the Big Law scene (albeit tiny) in Baltimore, However, I am not delusional enough to think that my matriculation through law school won't change that. In Baltimore, there is a stronger emphasis on ADA/PD work and I know I have more personal ties to this kind of work as well. I'm pretty confident that I would be able to hustle and get the grades I need to be marketable to the local big law firms. I also know me being a URM gives me a boost as most offer diversity scholarships/1L SA positions. But of course, there's always the possibility that I won't get the grades, and in that case, I would be open to other routes. Also for added context, I plan on doing a JD/MBA program if I do stay in Baltimore to allow me more flexibility and I genuinely just have an interest in business administration and can see myself doing something with that as well. How has your experience been moving around the nation going to a non t-14 school?

[Anonymous User]

You clearly are looking for permission to stay in Baltimore, so just stay in Baltimore. There's no rule that says you have to go to an elite school just because you can probably get in. If your GPA and LSAT practice tests are any indication, then you'll probably get a huge scholarship to the local Baltimore school and do really well there. I don't think microaggressions will be noticeably worse at a T14 compared to anywhere else (I'm Asian American and went to NYU Law and had no real issue with this), but of course being African American is a unique thing, so take my experience with a grain of salt.

Also, just FYI, this whole thought process you have going on is premature. Just to bring you down to earth a little bit, you haven't actually gotten a 174 yet. A lot of people PT at higher (sometimes dramatically higher) scores than what they actually ultimately receive. Get your actual score, get into a bunch of schools, and then start making decisions like this.

I agree with the last part the whole post is a bit premature but as an AA woman, I try to be strategic about my steps. Also, I'm aware that my practice test is just a practice test and I could very well get a lower school on the real thing. This is just a forum for advice so that's exactly what I was asking for, didn't need anyone to "bring me back to earth".

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you! I myself did significantly worse on my actual LSAT than my PTs, so I sorta wish someone had brought me back down to earth before I took the LSAT. Hence, why I used that phrase.

[Anonymous User]

Thank you for this insightful response. I'm honestly more interested at this moment in the Big Law scene (albeit tiny) in Baltimore, However, I am not delusional enough to think that my matriculation through law school won't change that. In Baltimore, there is a stronger emphasis on ADA/PD work and I know I have more personal ties to this kind of work as well. I'm pretty confident that I would be able to hustle and get the grades I need to be marketable to the local big law firms. I also know me being a URM gives me a boost as most offer diversity scholarships/1L SA positions. But of course, there's always the possibility that I won't get the grades, and in that case, I would be open to other routes. Also for added context, I plan on doing a JD/MBA program if I do stay in Baltimore to allow me more flexibility and I genuinely just have an interest in business administration and can see myself doing something with that as well. How has your experience been moving around the nation going to a non t-14 school?

I haven't really had any issues moving around from my non-T14, I think because I could always make a good pitch that I wanted the specific job I was moving for. In part, I had a career before law school where I had to move for jobs a lot, so I had a history of moving for jobs and living all over the place, which I think helped make my willingness to move look more convincing. In part, I was applying for jobs that people do tend to be willing to move for. Most recently, I was able to piggyback on my spouse getting a job in that location, so while it was nowhere near where I went to law school or was working at the time, I had a good reason to be there. Also, I only appear in federal court, so don't need to be admitted to other state bars.

That said, other law school classmates have moved around as well, though most are in our law school market just b/c that's where they're from and where they wanted to be from the start. It's definitely possible to do, but you have to be willing to be much more proactive and accept that it may be tougher than staying local.

[Anonymous User]

Maybe you could look into the east coast top schools (maybe UVA to stay in the DMV area, although UVA's in an area I wouldn't want to stay in for more than a year, I say this as a woman of color). I think it's worth it to at least apply and keep a list of up to 10 schools.

As for micro-aggressions, you'll encounter them anywhere in the legal profession, unfortunately. I was in a progressive city and I still encountered them inside the law school and in networking events. The profession still has a long way to go. I've been lucky to connect with great peers and mentors from different backgrounds than mine, so that makes a difference.

[Anonymous User]

Good to be thinking ahead but you don’t want to be in a situation where you decide you want to go to a local school, don’t need such a high Lsat score, end up becoming complacent, and score lower than your potential. So go give it your best and get a great score and think about all these good and relevant questions later. Good luck!

[ThatWPGuy2017]

In case you are still considering your options, just to put in a plug for the T14. I'm a 2L at HLS and BLSA is probably the single most connected affinity group on campus. They have firm money out the wazoo and many of their members receive diversity scholarships at some of the top firms in the nation (i.e. essentially double BigLaw salary for a summer) on top of receiving 1L firm positions. Plus, at a school like HLS (or CLS/ Georgetown for that matter), the schools are so large that the ecosystem of student life is completely different. As Dean Kagan used to say, HLS is the NYC of law schools. In other words, if you don't fit in well with a certain crowd, you can simply hang out with different people. Having over 500 students per class has its drawbacks, but here, it's a boost.