Money or rank?

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pereira6

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Re: Money or rank?

Postby pereira6 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:21 pm

HarrisonBarnes wrote:Minnesota is a great, nationally regarded law school. You should always go to the best law school that you can. If you go here, you will have options to potentially work all over the country--in prestigious employers--when you get out and the other will limit you. Employers assume that most attorneys go to the best law schools they got into. Money is a short-term consideration--the better law school you go to the more money you will generally make and the less the loans you take out will eventually matter.


how could you give such terrible advice?

HarrisonBarnes

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Re: Money or rank?

Postby HarrisonBarnes » Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:02 pm

This is not terrible advice. Compared to the other schools that were mentioned, this is a good school. This is a well-respected school all over the country. It is not Michigan, or Chicago, but people that do well there have lots of options.

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Mr. Archer

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Re: Money or rank?

Postby Mr. Archer » Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:56 pm

HarrisonBarnes wrote:This is not terrible advice. Compared to the other schools that were mentioned, this is a good school. This is a well-respected school all over the country. It is not Michigan, or Chicago, but people that do well there have lots of options.


Comparatively, Minnesota is a better choice here because the other schools are just no good. However, you gave blanket advice about always going to the school you get into that has the best rank (which is objectively wrong) and incorrectly state Minnesota's national importance (it is a regional school). A person who goes to Minnesota has far fewer options than a graduate from Michigan or Chicago. Someone who has a degree from Michigan or Chicago can work all over the country. Someone who goes to Minnesota should only expect to stay in Minnesota and hope to get a job. You seem to have a tenuous grasp on the legal market/portability of a law school degree.

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Mr. Archer

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Re: Money or rank?

Postby Mr. Archer » Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:16 pm

You really should think about retaking the LSAT to up your score and open up more options for yourself. Law school can always wait a year, and you don't want to waste your GPA. Working a year, even if it's at a job that isn't the best, while improving your chances to go to the best school with less debt would be worth it. Out of your choices, only Minnesota would allow you to reach your goals, and you would have to do well there. But you would obviously be taking a risk based on debt.

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nealric

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Re: Money or rank?

Postby nealric » Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:40 am

The answer is retake, but if I had to choose between the three I'd still go for Minnesota. Even on a full ride, you are looking at undertaking a non-trivial amount of debt unless you have a part-time option. I'd much rather be $150k in debt with a good job lined up than $50k in debt with no job and no prospects.

I've been there, borrowed, and paid back my law school debt. It's not fun, but what's even less fun is a stillborn career. If you are very charismatic and entrepreneurial, well connected, or very lucky, a lower-ranked law school can work out well for you. But you need to be honest with yourself in deciding whether that applies to you or not.

Minnesota is a great school, but not that well known nationally. Biglaw is probably not a strong likelihood, but it at least has the advantage of being the best school in its market by a pretty wide margin.

pereira6

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Re: Money or rank?

Postby pereira6 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:09 pm

HarrisonBarnes wrote:This is not terrible advice. Compared to the other schools that were mentioned, this is a good school. This is a well-respected school all over the country. It is not Michigan, or Chicago, but people that do well there have lots of options.


It is terrible advice, since someone shouldn't go into that much debt for Minnesota. This is universally accepted across this board.

Graybrow

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Re: Money or rank?

Postby Graybrow » Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:17 pm

pereira6 wrote:
HarrisonBarnes wrote:This is not terrible advice. Compared to the other schools that were mentioned, this is a good school. This is a well-respected school all over the country. It is not Michigan, or Chicago, but people that do well there have lots of options.


It is terrible advice, since someone shouldn't go into that much debt for Minnesota. This is universally accepted across this board.

jane21august

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Re: Money or rank?

Postby jane21august » Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:52 am

You should definitely after money.

beinghuman

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Re: Money or rank?

Postby beinghuman » Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:10 am

I'm from MN and I know people at Mitchell Hamline and St Thomas with full rides and they regret their choices as they have pretty much no job prospects.
Attending those schools is a waste of time, to be honest, unless you're connected, which could really help. But clerking for a federal judge and working at a large law firm from these schools is going to be EXTREMELY difficult.

U of MN law is just alright and unless you are in the top 10%, your aspirations are unlikely to be attained.

I'd say retake and try to get more money from UMN if you really want to stay in MN.

mnlawgirl wrote:Hello-

I am currently choosing between Mitchell Hamline, University of St. Thomas and the University of Minnesota.

Mitchell Hamline & University of St. Thomas both offered 100% tuition
University of Minnesota offered 18k, current tuition is about 40k

I want to live and work in Minnesota, ideally clerk for a federal judge and then work at a large law firm. My dream in life is to become a judge.

My LSAT was a 161, and my UGPA was a 3.8. I took the LSAT once.

Do I take the money, or go to the school with the higher rank? I want to make sure I am successful in school, unsure how different the atmosphere is in a T1 school vs. T3/T4 but I thrive when I can make great and true connections with professors.

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Re: Money or rank?

Postby beinghuman » Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:17 am

Sorry 'mnlawgirl' but that sounds very trite. Where you go will matter a lot in terms of fulfilling your career aspirations stated above or at least finding a decent job... How does being a good and likable person play a role here? More importantly, what does that even have to do with your law school choice? I will agree with you that it is indeed not the right mindset when you are trying to determine where to go...

Also, "admin lawyer," I really must say it.. Too many law graduates regret going to law school.

mnlawgirl wrote:
admin lawyer wrote:No, you want money and good rank. A few of my friends got full rides at top schools and were really happy about it. People who paid full tuition at lower ranked schools were not at happy. However, nobody really regrets ever going to law school because following your dreams is what's most important.


Thanks for that, I appreciate it. I think I will go for something in the middle. I am more interested in following my dreams and being a good person than being the person with the best credentials. Maybe that's not the right mindset, but being a good and likable person matters to me. :D

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Re: Money or rank?

Postby mnlawgirl » Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:11 am

beinghuman wrote:Sorry 'mnlawgirl' but that sounds very trite. Where you go will matter a lot in terms of fulfilling your career aspirations stated above or at least finding a decent job... How does being a good and likable person play a role here? More importantly, what does that even have to do with your law school choice? I will agree with you that it is indeed not the right mindset when you are trying to determine where to go...

Also, "admin lawyer," I really must say it.. Too many law graduates regret going to law school.

mnlawgirl wrote:
admin lawyer wrote:No, you want money and good rank. A few of my friends got full rides at top schools and were really happy about it. People who paid full tuition at lower ranked schools were not at happy. However, nobody really regrets ever going to law school because following your dreams is what's most important.


Thanks for that, I appreciate it. I think I will go for something in the middle. I am more interested in following my dreams and being a good person than being the person with the best credentials. Maybe that's not the right mindset, but being a good and likable person matters to me. :D


Being good and likable plays a role in the interview process I would say, and probably just in the world. To say that people have absolutely no job prospects coming from Mitchell Hamline and UST seems a bit dramatic and disrespectful. I know plenty of graduates from all 3 schools that are able to work and live in Minneapolis and greater Minnesota. Thanks though for your advice. It makes me want to do the opposite!

beinghuman

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Re: Money or rank?

Postby beinghuman » Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:13 pm

I'm not saying it's not a good thing to be good and likable but I'm saying that that alone will not cut it. Your school will matter a lot... There are a lot of likable people who go higher schools....
Also, I didn't say that "have absolutely no job prospects"... And I didn't say graduates from those schools will not have jobs but you need to see what kind of jobs those are and how representative your friends are of the total pool of graduates. A few success stories don't mean the school is doing great.
Moreover, job prospects for a law students imply a good job in the legal field. Otherwise why go to law school to end up taking any job; and so in that sense, yes, I stand by my comments on both schools.

By the way, it's not disrecptpful to point out unpleasant truths...

Look at their LST report:
https://www.lstreports.com/schools/mitc ... line/jobs/

And examine the data.. Isn't it weird that the law school doesn't know what kind positions their graduates have in a firm (whether attorney or paralegal, or assistant, etc)? Or their salaries? It's all in the report... Research how many return to their previous jobs, etc etc etc. You'll have to do some digging.

On your comment, that my advice makes want to do the opposite. I would say, I was not trying to make you do anything. You posted a question and I am giving you an opinion plus some data. Do what you want. But be aware of making subjective judgments. That's all....

mnlawgirl wrote:
beinghuman wrote:Sorry 'mnlawgirl' but that sounds very trite. Where you go will matter a lot in terms of fulfilling your career aspirations stated above or at least finding a decent job... How does being a good and likable person play a role here? More importantly, what does that even have to do with your law school choice? I will agree with you that it is indeed not the right mindset when you are trying to determine where to go...

Also, "admin lawyer," I really must say it.. Too many law graduates regret going to law school.

mnlawgirl wrote:
admin lawyer wrote:No, you want money and good rank. A few of my friends got full rides at top schools and were really happy about it. People who paid full tuition at lower ranked schools were not at happy. However, nobody really regrets ever going to law school because following your dreams is what's most important.


Thanks for that, I appreciate it. I think I will go for something in the middle. I am more interested in following my dreams and being a good person than being the person with the best credentials. Maybe that's not the right mindset, but being a good and likable person matters to me. :D


Being good and likable plays a role in the interview process I would say, and probably just in the world. To say that people have absolutely no job prospects coming from Mitchell Hamline and UST seems a bit dramatic and disrespectful. I know plenty of graduates from all 3 schools that are able to work and live in Minneapolis and greater Minnesota. Thanks though for your advice. It makes me want to do the opposite!

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nealric

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Re: Money or rank?

Postby nealric » Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:32 pm

Do a bit of digging on this site. There are a few threads out there from 5-10 years ago made by people who asked for advice about going to a low ranked schools and got the same advice you are getting. They chose not to believe it and came back years later to tell stories of woe.

That being said, the plural of anecdote is not data. Look at the data (posted above) and think hard about the risk/reward calculus. Nobody is looking down at people who choose to go to lower ranked schools (and I have personally worked with some very fine lawyers who did so), but that doesn't mean someone currently facing the choice shouldn't consider the objective reality that it's a risky proposition.

mnlawgirl

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Re: Money or rank?

Postby mnlawgirl » Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:20 pm

beinghuman wrote:I'm not saying it's not a good thing to be good and likable but I'm saying that that alone will not cut it. Your school will matter a lot... There are a lot of likable people who go higher schools....
Also, I didn't say that "have absolutely no job prospects"... And I didn't say graduates from those schools will not have jobs but you need to see what kind of jobs those are and how representative your friends are of the total pool of graduates. A few success stories don't mean the school is doing great.
Moreover, job prospects for a law students imply a good job in the legal field. Otherwise why go to law school to end up taking any job; and so in that sense, yes, I stand by my comments on both schools.

By the way, it's not disrecptpful to point out unpleasant truths...

Look at their LST report:
https://www.lstreports.com/schools/mitc ... line/jobs/

And examine the data.. Isn't it weird that the law school doesn't know what kind positions their graduates have in a firm (whether attorney or paralegal, or assistant, etc)? Or their salaries? It's all in the report... Research how many return to their previous jobs, etc etc etc. You'll have to do some digging.

On your comment, that my advice makes want to do the opposite. I would say, I was not trying to make you do anything. You posted a question and I am giving you an opinion plus some data. Do what you want. But be aware of making subjective judgments. That's all....

[/quote]

Question - where does the LST report get their data? What I am seeing does not align with the ABA disclosures released by the 3 schools I've applied to and am looking at.

minnbills

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Re: Money or rank?

Postby minnbills » Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:36 pm

LST gets its date from the law schools and from the ABA required disclosures (which come from the law school).

Law schools often play games with their employment numbers. The most common tactic is that many will hire unemployed grads for a few months so that they can represent a lower unemployment rate when the reporting period comes around.

As a UMN law grad, I will just say that many grads from Mitchell/UST don't get good employment outcomes. Whereas most people coming out of UMN get something. A LOT of people I know from UMN who struggled to find jobs ended up doing state court clerkships and are now moving into small firms around the twin cities. They are looking at salaries around 50-60k two years out from graduation. If you go to the U, work hard and apply broadly, that is your worst-case scenario. The people I know who did worse are the ones who never took school or the job search seriously.

My section of 40 students at UMN basically breaks down like this:

6 did federal clerkships (which is unusually high for a section at the U). 2 went COA, 4 to D.Ct., and I did a bankruptcy clerkship. All 6 are now moving into law firm jobs, ranging from midlaw in MN to SullCrom in NYC.

about 5-6 went right to biglaw, with Skadden at the high end and regional firms in MN at the low end.

the next 20 or so did a mix of state court clerkships, state government, and small firm jobs.

The remainder dropped out of school before graduation, out of law post-graduation. I think a couple are still doing doc review.

The situation for Mitchell/UST grads is quite different. There are grads from these schools who are bright, did everything right, and still couldn't find a legal job. I don't know for sure what the situation is, but I'm guessing there are 2-3 federal clerks who come out of the whole class, and maybe 5-10 who get jobs with larger firms. On the other hand, if you have a full ride and play your cards right you can eliminate student debt risk, so you are only looking at opportunity cost.



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