Columbia sticker vs NU freeride vs Retake and Recycle Forum

[Nebby]

If you're dumb enough to pass up a NU free ride then you're too dumb to land LA. HTH

[jbagelboy]

Emailed a partner at a V70 firm in LA that I happen to know with the question in the OP, and here is a part of his response:
"You can be in top third at Columbia and get a good job at most LA firms. At Northwestern you may have to be in the top 10-15% <...> The top-third vs. top 10-15% example is not hypothetical—I was extensively involved in recruiting at *different V50 firm name*, and this is roughly consistent with the grade cutoffs the firm used in deciding who to even consider for a call-back interview"

Seems to go against the common wisdom on these forums, but, considering this guy's credentials, it just made me lean towards Columbia that much more :/

Although I won't go so far as to say that the partner was being untruthful or imprecise, I don't think his estimates are representative of the overall market. I've always thought that CLS and Chicago got a slight overall bump over the non-HYSB T14 in Southern California, but it's not on the order of top 33% versus top 10%-15%. The firm I summered at basically treated all non-HYS T14 schools the same in terms of grades. The firm I'm at now might give a CLS student a slight bump over a NU or a Penn or a Duke student, but it would be something like a 5% bump, if that.

Look, a CLS student has a slightly better chance of getting job in Cali compared to a NU student. Is that slight chance worth an extra $200K+ in debt? It's not even a close question.

I totally get what you're saying, and I damn near put in my NU deposit today, but then I read that guy's email. I can't speak to the numbers he's citing, but his involvement in recruiting at his firm is on the company's website. And I don't see a reason why he would be giving me false information. Another part of the same email quoted a friend of his (a partner at a V50 lit boutique in LA) to whom he described my situation, and his advice was pretty much the same: "a freeride from NU is incredibly attractive, but tell him to be in the top 15-20% if he wants good firms in Cali. Columbia is a safer bet".

This is driving me crazy. There are no V50 lit boutiques in LA. Maybe your partner's "friend" is at MTO, which is too big to be a boutique (and isn't only lit) but is probably the closest thing to a lit boutique in the V50 in California. Anyway, it's true that you'd probably have to be in the top 15-20% (plus a clerkship) to get a job at MTO out of NU. But you would also need those grades to get a job there out of CLS.

You're getting bad information. I understand not wanting to accept the faceless conventional wisdom of an internet message board, but please, please, talk to more lawyers, including younger lawyers. Talk to recent grads of both NU and CLS. Don't base your decision on the input of a single partner whose advice included anecdotes from a friend at a fictional V50 lit boutique.

I think nearly everything rpupkin has said is on point and should be taken seriously. Columbia is a better school, including for CA, sure, but its a much worse quality-value proposition at that price than Northwestern for free. And that's what this decision comes down to as a professional school, not some abstract notion of "the best school" or "prestige".

Rpupkin, I would probably dispute the last part of your paragraph though. I don't even know if firms like HH and MTO hire at Northwestern. You would probably need to be one of the very top students in your class, and get a special plug from someone; certainly not only top 15% (I'm talking about for 2L summer, post-clerkship is obviously different). Of course you have to be a very strong candidate at Columbia too, but these firms interview at CLS at OCI and so the opportunities are not quite so constrained.

Still, that being said, I would never make this decision on the basis of a single or handful of firms. That's crazy. You want to look at the market as a whole. And as rpupkin said, for the California market as a whole, Columbia is not worth $250k over Northwestern. It's probably not even worth $100k over Northwestern in many cases.

[rpupkin]

Rpupkin, I would probably dispute the last part of your paragraph though. I don't even know if firms like HH and MTO hire at Northwestern. You would probably need to be one of the very top students in your class, and get a special plug from someone; certainly not only top 15% (I'm talking about for 2L summer, post-clerkship is obviously different). Of course you have to be a very strong candidate at Columbia too, but these firms interview at CLS at OCI and so the opportunities are not quite so constrained.

This is all fair.

[FLSFHYS]

OP - all due respect intended here. I feel the pull of prestige as a fellow 0L, and the marginal peace of mind that one might get attending a school like Columbia.

That said, do you understand what 300k means? Do you know what it's like to be in debt even 50k or 100k or 200k? Do you know what it's like to put aside half your paycheck every month for many years just to service debt? do you know what it's like not to be able to afford a mortgage, or a new car, or emergency medical expenses for your family because you made a maybe regrettable decision a decade past?

These are the questions you have to consider, LA will always be there, waiting for you. Go to NU, do well, and worst case scenario you work in New York for a year or two and make the right moves to transfer to socal. It's a FREE legal education at a top institution. It opens the door wide open for you, and then every post-tax penny goes in your pocket, to start a family, to go on vacations, to take interesting jobs that don't pay very well, etc.

Just think long term and try to be flexible. Dont look back 10-15 years down the road and regret it. Wish you all the best dude.

As I mentioned earlier, I did do the math, and even after $4k/month payments I'll have significantly more disposable income than I've ever had. And if I add my wife's income (I'm married) into the equation, paying the loan off can, in theory, happen in as little as 5 years while still maintaining a pleasant lifestyle.

And there are a few other factors that I'm currently discovering for myself. According to LSN, a lot of people with my stats who applied early received half-tuition at T6, and some people with just 1 or 2 more LSAT points and GPA's lower than mine got full-tuition offers from these same schools. While this is in no way predictable, I'm currently PT'ing 178-180 and feel like I have it in me to get into 175+ on my June retake, which will open full tuition doors at CCN for me if I reapply next year. This "missed opportunity" idea is nagging at me incessantly, and I can't seem to shake it off, against what I think is my better judgment. Part of the reason could be immigrant values. I came to this country less than a decade ago with absolutely nothing to my name and no one to back me up. I was learning English while going to college (not ESL classes), working my ass off to do what most would consider simple tasks. I was learning grammar from the internet while completing writing assignments. Apart from written English, I've spent insane amounts of time working on my speech and eliminating my accent as much as I could (only have trace amounts left). All this time it felt like I was playing catch-up and that I had to run twice as fast as everyone else to simply not fall behind. And you know what? It sucked. A lot. And I don't want my descendants to have to go through what I did. I want to establish friggin legacy in this country. I want my children to have connections that I never had. I don't want them to have to claw through as many obstacles as I had to. And law school looks like a great opportunity to turn everything around.

So... What I currently have is numbers to possibly get into H/S, or CCN with a half-tuition scholarship, and I have an opportunity to increase my LSAT to get into full-tuition territory at the CCN level next year. NU will give me a good job and more money sooner, which is incredibly nice, but I don't see much legacy value in that. I know I probably sound very arrogant, but I feel it in my gut that I can do better. Granted, I realize that these considerations go outside the purely mathematical calculations of law school investment/profit formula, but my life experience up to this point is telling me that they're not irrelevant.

In any case, despite the agression of some posters, thanks to everyone for sharing your opinions, I appreciate your input. My current plan is to wait to hear back from NU alumni in LA about their experience and attempt to negotiate with Columbia using NU's offer to try to get at least something. I do plan to deposit to one of these two schools soon, but where specifically will depend on the information I hope to acquire in the next few days. I'm also studying for the June LSAT to try and kill it there to see in July if reapplying next year would make more sense, or if I can use a (possibly) higher score to improve an offer from this year. All this while still riding the H waitlist to the bitter end. I'll post my decision here later.

[jbagelboy]

OP - all due respect intended here. I feel the pull of prestige as a fellow 0L, and the marginal peace of mind that one might get attending a school like Columbia.

That said, do you understand what 300k means? Do you know what it's like to be in debt even 50k or 100k or 200k? Do you know what it's like to put aside half your paycheck every month for many years just to service debt? do you know what it's like not to be able to afford a mortgage, or a new car, or emergency medical expenses for your family because you made a maybe regrettable decision a decade past?

These are the questions you have to consider, LA will always be there, waiting for you. Go to NU, do well, and worst case scenario you work in New York for a year or two and make the right moves to transfer to socal. It's a FREE legal education at a top institution. It opens the door wide open for you, and then every post-tax penny goes in your pocket, to start a family, to go on vacations, to take interesting jobs that don't pay very well, etc.

Just think long term and try to be flexible. Dont look back 10-15 years down the road and regret it. Wish you all the best dude.

As I mentioned earlier, I did do the math, and even after $4k/month payments I'll have significantly more disposable income than I've ever had. And if I add my wife's income (I'm married) into the equation, paying the loan off can, in theory, happen in as little as 5 years while still maintaining a pleasant lifestyle.

And there are a few other factors that I'm currently discovering for myself. According to LSN, a lot of people with my stats who applied early received half-tuition at T6, and some people with just 1 or 2 more LSAT points and GPA's lower than mine got full-tuition offers from these same schools. While this is in no way predictable, I'm currently PT'ing 178-180 and feel like I have it in me to get into 175+ on my June retake, which will open full tuition doors at CCN for me if I reapply next year. This "missed opportunity" idea is nagging at me incessantly, and I can't seem to shake it off, against what I think is my better judgment. Part of the reason could be immigrant values. I came to this country less than a decade ago with absolutely nothing to my name and no one to back me up. I was learning English while going to college (not ESL classes), working my ass off to do what most would consider simple tasks. I was learning grammar from the internet while completing writing assignments. Apart from written English, I've spent insane amounts of time working on my speech and eliminating my accent as much as I could (only have trace amounts left). All this time it felt like I was playing catch-up and that I had to run twice as fast as everyone else to simply not fall behind. And you know what? It sucked. A lot. And I don't want my descendants to have to go through what I did. I want to establish friggin legacy in this country. I want my children to have connections that I never had. I don't want them to have to claw through as many obstacles as I had to. And law school looks like a great opportunity to turn everything around.

So... What I currently have is numbers to possibly get into H/S, or CCN with a half-tuition scholarship, and I have an opportunity to increase my LSAT to get into full-tuition territory at the CCN level next year. NU will give me a good job and more money sooner, which is incredibly nice, but I don't see much legacy value in that. I know I probably sound very arrogant, but I feel it in my gut that I can do better. Granted, I realize that these considerations go outside the purely mathematical calculations of law school investment/profit formula, but my life experience up to this point is telling me that they're not irrelevant.

In any case, despite the agression of some posters, thanks to everyone for sharing your opinions, I appreciate your input. My current plan is to wait to hear back from NU alumni in LA about their experience and attempt to negotiate with Columbia using NU's offer to try to get at least something. I do plan to deposit to one of these two schools soon, but where specifically will depend on the information I hope to acquire in the next few days. I'm also studying for the June LSAT to try and kill it there to see in July if reapplying next year would make more sense, or if I can use it to improve an offer from this year. All this while still riding the H waitlist to the bitter end. I'll post my decision here later.

I don't see how the HLS waitlist makes much difference here unless you would anticipate receiving substantial need-based aid. The value proposition between Northwestern for free and CLS at sticker or HLS at sticker doesn't change much. True, HLS is stronger than both CLS and Northwestern in placing into SoCal, but only by degrees. You're still faced with a very similar decision where the best choice is to go to Northwestern or negotiate a larger aid package from another school.

[jjcorvino]

OP - all due respect intended here. I feel the pull of prestige as a fellow 0L, and the marginal peace of mind that one might get attending a school like Columbia.

That said, do you understand what 300k means? Do you know what it's like to be in debt even 50k or 100k or 200k? Do you know what it's like to put aside half your paycheck every month for many years just to service debt? do you know what it's like not to be able to afford a mortgage, or a new car, or emergency medical expenses for your family because you made a maybe regrettable decision a decade past?

These are the questions you have to consider, LA will always be there, waiting for you. Go to NU, do well, and worst case scenario you work in New York for a year or two and make the right moves to transfer to socal. It's a FREE legal education at a top institution. It opens the door wide open for you, and then every post-tax penny goes in your pocket, to start a family, to go on vacations, to take interesting jobs that don't pay very well, etc.

Just think long term and try to be flexible. Dont look back 10-15 years down the road and regret it. Wish you all the best dude.

As I mentioned earlier, I did do the math, and even after $4k/month payments I'll have significantly more disposable income than I've ever had. And if I add my wife's income (I'm married) into the equation, paying the loan off can, in theory, happen in as little as 5 years while still maintaining a pleasant lifestyle.

And there are a few other factors that I'm currently discovering for myself. According to LSN, a lot of people with my stats who applied early received half-tuition at T6, and some people with just 1 or 2 more LSAT points and GPA's lower than mine got full-tuition offers from these same schools. While this is in no way predictable, I'm currently PT'ing 178-180 and feel like I have it in me to get into 175+ on my June retake, which will open full tuition doors at CCN for me if I reapply next year. This "missed opportunity" idea is nagging at me incessantly, and I can't seem to shake it off, against what I think is my better judgment. Part of the reason could be immigrant values. I came to this country less than a decade ago with absolutely nothing to my name and no one to back me up. I was learning English while going to college (not ESL classes), working my ass off to do what most would consider simple tasks. I was learning grammar from the internet while completing writing assignments. Apart from written English, I've spent insane amounts of time working on my speech and eliminating my accent as much as I could (only have trace amounts left). All this time it felt like I was playing catch-up and that I had to run twice as fast as everyone else to simply not fall behind. And you know what? It sucked. A lot. And I don't want my descendants to have to go through what I did. I want to establish friggin legacy in this country. I want my children to have connections that I never had. I don't want them to have to claw through as many obstacles as I had to. And law school looks like a great opportunity to turn everything around.

So... What I currently have is numbers to possibly get into H/S, or CCN with a half-tuition scholarship, and I have an opportunity to increase my LSAT to get into full-tuition territory at the CCN level next year. NU will give me a good job and more money sooner, which is incredibly nice, but I don't see much legacy value in that. I know I probably sound very arrogant, but I feel it in my gut that I can do better. Granted, I realize that these considerations go outside the purely mathematical calculations of law school investment/profit formula, but my life experience up to this point is telling me that they're not irrelevant.

In any case, despite the agression of some posters, thanks to everyone for sharing your opinions, I appreciate your input. My current plan is to wait to hear back from NU alumni in LA about their experience and attempt to negotiate with Columbia using NU's offer to try to get at least something. I do plan to deposit to one of these two schools soon, but where specifically will depend on the information I hope to acquire in the next few days. I'm also studying for the June LSAT to try and kill it there to see in July if reapplying next year would make more sense, or if I can use it to improve an offer from this year. All this while still riding the H waitlist to the bitter end. I'll post my decision here later.

I think that you are going about it the right way here. I would say that trying to retake, and waiting a year is a great plan. Law school is not going away, and you should be able to get equal scholarship opportunities next year even if you do not improve your score by applying early. Worst case scenario is that you burned a year and have the same sort of opportunities and decisions next year.

[Npret]

OP - all due respect intended here. I feel the pull of prestige as a fellow 0L, and the marginal peace of mind that one might get attending a school like Columbia.

That said, do you understand what 300k means? Do you know what it's like to be in debt even 50k or 100k or 200k? Do you know what it's like to put aside half your paycheck every month for many years just to service debt? do you know what it's like not to be able to afford a mortgage, or a new car, or emergency medical expenses for your family because you made a maybe regrettable decision a decade past?

These are the questions you have to consider, LA will always be there, waiting for you. Go to NU, do well, and worst case scenario you work in New York for a year or two and make the right moves to transfer to socal. It's a FREE legal education at a top institution. It opens the door wide open for you, and then every post-tax penny goes in your pocket, to start a family, to go on vacations, to take interesting jobs that don't pay very well, etc.

Just think long term and try to be flexible. Dont look back 10-15 years down the road and regret it. Wish you all the best dude.

As I mentioned earlier, I did do the math, and even after $4k/month payments I'll have significantly more disposable income than I've ever had. And if I add my wife's income (I'm married) into the equation, paying the loan off can, in theory, happen in as little as 5 years while still maintaining a pleasant lifestyle.

And there are a few other factors that I'm currently discovering for myself. According to LSN, a lot of people with my stats who applied early received half-tuition at T6, and some people with just 1 or 2 more LSAT points and GPA's lower than mine got full-tuition offers from these same schools. While this is in no way predictable, I'm currently PT'ing 178-180 and feel like I have it in me to get into 175+ on my June retake, which will open full tuition doors at CCN for me if I reapply next year. This "missed opportunity" idea is nagging at me incessantly, and I can't seem to shake it off, against what I think is my better judgment. Part of the reason could be immigrant values. I came to this country less than a decade ago with absolutely nothing to my name and no one to back me up. I was learning English while going to college (not ESL classes), working my ass off to do what most would consider simple tasks. I was learning grammar from the internet while completing writing assignments. Apart from written English, I've spent insane amounts of time working on my speech and eliminating my accent as much as I could (only have trace amounts left). All this time it felt like I was playing catch-up and that I had to run twice as fast as everyone else to simply not fall behind. And you know what? It sucked. A lot. And I don't want my descendants to have to go through what I did. I want to establish friggin legacy in this country. I want my children to have connections that I never had. I don't want them to have to claw through as many obstacles as I had to. And law school looks like a great opportunity to turn everything around.

So... What I currently have is numbers to possibly get into H/S, or CCN with a half-tuition scholarship, and I have an opportunity to increase my LSAT to get into full-tuition territory at the CCN level next year. NU will give me a good job and more money sooner, which is incredibly nice, but I don't see much legacy value in that. I know I probably sound very arrogant, but I feel it in my gut that I can do better. Granted, I realize that these considerations go outside the purely mathematical calculations of law school investment/profit formula, but my life experience up to this point is telling me that they're not irrelevant.

In any case, despite the agression of some posters, thanks to everyone for sharing your opinions, I appreciate your input. My current plan is to wait to hear back from NU alumni in LA about their experience and attempt to negotiate with Columbia using NU's offer to try to get at least something. I do plan to deposit to one of these two schools soon, but where specifically will depend on the information I hope to acquire in the next few days. I'm also studying for the June LSAT to try and kill it there to see in July if reapplying next year would make more sense, or if I can use it to improve an offer from this year. All this while still riding the H waitlist to the bitter end. I'll post my decision here later.

OP: we all know that Northwestern somehow isn't prestigious enough for you even for free. There is about a 12% chance you go there, maybe your wife will care about having that much family debt, but you are addicted to prestige and you won't let it go.

Edit to add: that addiction might help you succeed in biglaw as that's your dream, so there's that going for you.

[FLSFHYS]

I don't see how the HLS waitlist makes much difference here unless you would anticipate receiving substantial need-based aid. The value proposition between Northwestern for free and CLS at sticker or HLS at sticker doesn't change much. True, HLS is stronger than both CLS and Northwestern in placing into SoCal, but only by degrees. You're still faced with a very similar decision where the best choice is to go to Northwestern or negotiate a larger aid package from another school.

Significant need-based is a real possibility (I'm broke), and HLS seems to be quite a bit stronger for SoCal than Columbia or NU. If it is indeed top 30% of Columbia grads that have solid chances at top firms, it definitely improves up to the median with HLS, which is more or less a guarantee of a job. All things considered, the opportunities, the alumni network, and the legacy value of HLS make it well worth it in my eyes, even at sticker.

[Pure Applesauce]

paying the loan off can, in theory, happen in as little as 5 years while still maintaining a pleasant lifestyle.

Lol just lol

So OP:
1. thinks NU is not prestigious enough to go for free;

2. assumes he will get LA big law even though you need good grades regardless and they are far from guaranteed, and

3. Thinks he will pay off loans in five years "while still maintaining a pleasant lifestyle"

0Ls, man

[rpupkin]

Worst case scenario is that you burned a year and have the same sort of opportunities and decisions next year.

No, worst case scenario is that OP doesn't get a full-ride offer next year, which is a distinct possibility.

[dg1090]

OP - all due respect intended here. I feel the pull of prestige as a fellow 0L, and the marginal peace of mind that one might get attending a school like Columbia.

That said, do you understand what 300k means? Do you know what it's like to be in debt even 50k or 100k or 200k? Do you know what it's like to put aside half your paycheck every month for many years just to service debt? do you know what it's like not to be able to afford a mortgage, or a new car, or emergency medical expenses for your family because you made a maybe regrettable decision a decade past?

These are the questions you have to consider, LA will always be there, waiting for you. Go to NU, do well, and worst case scenario you work in New York for a year or two and make the right moves to transfer to socal. It's a FREE legal education at a top institution. It opens the door wide open for you, and then every post-tax penny goes in your pocket, to start a family, to go on vacations, to take interesting jobs that don't pay very well, etc.

Just think long term and try to be flexible. Dont look back 10-15 years down the road and regret it. Wish you all the best dude.

As I mentioned earlier, I did do the math, and even after $4k/month payments I'll have significantly more disposable income than I've ever had. And if I add my wife's income (I'm married) into the equation, paying the loan off can, in theory, happen in as little as 5 years while still maintaining a pleasant lifestyle.

And there are a few other factors that I'm currently discovering for myself. According to LSN, a lot of people with my stats who applied early received half-tuition at T6, and some people with just 1 or 2 more LSAT points and GPA's lower than mine got full-tuition offers from these same schools. While this is in no way predictable, I'm currently PT'ing 178-180 and feel like I have it in me to get into 175+ on my June retake, which will open full tuition doors at CCN for me if I reapply next year. This "missed opportunity" idea is nagging at me incessantly, and I can't seem to shake it off, against what I think is my better judgment. Part of the reason could be immigrant values. I came to this country less than a decade ago with absolutely nothing to my name and no one to back me up. I was learning English while going to college (not ESL classes), working my ass off to do what most would consider simple tasks. I was learning grammar from the internet while completing writing assignments. Apart from written English, I've spent insane amounts of time working on my speech and eliminating my accent as much as I could (only have trace amounts left). All this time it felt like I was playing catch-up and that I had to run twice as fast as everyone else to simply not fall behind. And you know what? It sucked. A lot. And I don't want my descendants to have to go through what I did. I want to establish friggin legacy in this country. I want my children to have connections that I never had. I don't want them to have to claw through as many obstacles as I had to. And law school looks like a great opportunity to turn everything around.

So... What I currently have is numbers to possibly get into H/S, or CCN with a half-tuition scholarship, and I have an opportunity to increase my LSAT to get into full-tuition territory at the CCN level next year. NU will give me a good job and more money sooner, which is incredibly nice, but I don't see much legacy value in that. I know I probably sound very arrogant, but I feel it in my gut that I can do better. Granted, I realize that these considerations go outside the purely mathematical calculations of law school investment/profit formula, but my life experience up to this point is telling me that they're not irrelevant.

In any case, despite the agression of some posters, thanks to everyone for sharing your opinions, I appreciate your input. My current plan is to wait to hear back from NU alumni in LA about their experience and attempt to negotiate with Columbia using NU's offer to try to get at least something. I do plan to deposit to one of these two schools soon, but where specifically will depend on the information I hope to acquire in the next few days. I'm also studying for the June LSAT to try and kill it there to see in July if reapplying next year would make more sense, or if I can use a (possibly) higher score to improve an offer from this year. All this while still riding the H waitlist to the bitter end. I'll post my decision here later.

Fair enough. I will leave with this though. I think 300k well invested could go a lot farther in establishing your legacy than spent on a law school education you could have gotten for free. Best of luck.

[Pure Applesauce]

Worst case scenario is that you burned a year and have the same sort of opportunities and decisions next year.

No, worst case scenario is that OP doesn't get a full-ride offer next year, which is a distinct possibility.

Exactly. Something as good as a free ride from NU is far from guaranteed

[UVA2B]

This decision went about 2 1/2 pages too long.

NU, and it's not at all close.

[Npret]

This decision went about 2 1/2 pages too long.

NU, and it's not at all close.

We all agree but OP doesn't and won't. There is no convincing him.

Maybe if he thought about all the money he would get to keep that he earns instead of repaying debt?

My odds are still under 15% he goes to NU and that's only if he has a sensible wife.

[Npret]

Worst case scenario is that you burned a year and have the same sort of opportunities and decisions next year.

No, worst case scenario is that OP doesn't get a full-ride offer next year, which is a distinct possibility.

Exactly. Something as good as a free ride from NU is far from guaranteed

I doubt they bother to re-offer the full ride to people who turned it down once. Don't know though. I'm not sure why they would outside of some solid reason (like family emergencies) for turning it down the first time.

[UVA2B]

This decision went about 2 1/2 pages too long.

NU, and it's not at all close.

We all agree but OP doesn't and won't. There is no convincing him.

Maybe if he thought about all the money he would get to keep that he earns instead of repaying debt?

My odds are still under 15% he goes to NU and that's only if he has a sensible wife.

I sometimes wonder if wayward souls ever find threads like this while in similar situations, and are actually persuaded because they are, you know, rational.

[rpupkin]

Worst case scenario is that you burned a year and have the same sort of opportunities and decisions next year.

No, worst case scenario is that OP doesn't get a full-ride offer next year, which is a distinct possibility.

Exactly. Something as good as a free ride from NU is far from guaranteed

I doubt they bother to re-offer the full ride to people who turned it down once. Don't know though. I'm not sure why they would outside of some solid reason (like family emergencies) for turning it down the first time.

Yeah, most likely outcome is that OP ends up with something like a 75% scholarship to Cornell or Duke next cycle. A full ride in the T13 could certainly happen again, but it may well not.

This whole thread is pretty weird.

[Pure Applesauce]

the opportunities, the alumni network, and the legacy value of HLS make it well worth it in my eyes, even at sticker.

there is no hope here

[jbagelboy]

I don't see how the HLS waitlist makes much difference here unless you would anticipate receiving substantial need-based aid. The value proposition between Northwestern for free and CLS at sticker or HLS at sticker doesn't change much. True, HLS is stronger than both CLS and Northwestern in placing into SoCal, but only by degrees. You're still faced with a very similar decision where the best choice is to go to Northwestern or negotiate a larger aid package from another school.

Significant need-based is a real possibility (I'm broke), and HLS seems to be quite a bit stronger for SoCal than Columbia or NU. If it is indeed top 30% of Columbia grads that have solid chances at top firms, it definitely improves up to the median with HLS, which is more or less a guarantee of a job. All things considered, the opportunities, the alumni network, and the legacy value of HLS make it well worth it in my eyes, even at sticker.

Not that this matters since HLS isn't on the table, but (1) you don't have to be top third at CLS to get a job in SoCal biglaw, you can be median as well; and (2) the only place where HLS grads are practically guaranteed a firm job is New York biglaw. There are no "guarantees" for the entire class at any school for California firms. Having worked at several firms in southern California I can state with confidence that it is not an issue of "quite a bit stronger;" the opportunities reach a slightly larger slice of the class by degrees at each school, such that HLS is slightly better than CLS for these jobs and CLS is slightly better than Northwestern.

If you would receive substantial need based aid, of course, that changes everything.

As for alumni network and opportunities and legacy value... that is what we are talking about. All of these are top law schools that have all of those features. The issue is the value proposition of the marginal differences between them.

[tinyvessels]

'legacy value'

lmao

Literally no one will significantly care about what law school you went to by the time you're a few years out of school and have worked at a few firms by then. but, i mean, having the ability to annoy people about being an elite 'harvard law' grad at cocktail parties is worth the debt and extra year of sitting out on school/getting your career started.

[cheaptilts]

Enjoy Columbia, OP

[dg1090]

Enjoy Columbia, OP

Quickly read your username and saw cheaptits.

[rpupkin]

Not that this matters since HLS isn't on the table, but (1) you don't have to be top third at CLS to get a job in SoCal biglaw, you can be median as well; and (2) the only place where HLS grads are practically guaranteed a firm job is New York biglaw. There are no "guarantees" for the entire class at any school for California firms. Having worked at several firms in southern California I can state with confidence that it is not an issue of "quite a bit stronger;" the opportunities reach a slightly larger slice of the class by degrees at each school, such that HLS is slightly better than CLS for these jobs and CLS is slightly better than Northwestern.

I think this is right. You definitely can be median at CLS and get a job in SoCal big law. You also can be median at NU and get a job in SoCal big law, though it'll be slightly tougher.

[tinyvessels]

Not that this matters since HLS isn't on the table, but (1) you don't have to be top third at CLS to get a job in SoCal biglaw, you can be median as well; and (2) the only place where HLS grads are practically guaranteed a firm job is New York biglaw. There are no "guarantees" for the entire class at any school for California firms. Having worked at several firms in southern California I can state with confidence that it is not an issue of "quite a bit stronger;" the opportunities reach a slightly larger slice of the class by degrees at each school, such that HLS is slightly better than CLS for these jobs and CLS is slightly better than Northwestern.

If you would receive substantial need based aid, of course, that changes everything.

As for alumni network and opportunities and legacy value... that is what we are talking about. All of these are top law schools that have all of those features. The issue is the value proposition of the marginal differences between them.

I have zero interest in BL, so I may be missing something obvious...But why would Harvard Law guarantee a job in NYC, but not LA? Are LA firms more invested in finding the right 'fit' versus getting an elite school grad? Or have more interest in getting grads from more regional schools versus NYC firms?

[jbagelboy]

Not that this matters since HLS isn't on the table, but (1) you don't have to be top third at CLS to get a job in SoCal biglaw, you can be median as well; and (2) the only place where HLS grads are practically guaranteed a firm job is New York biglaw. There are no "guarantees" for the entire class at any school for California firms. Having worked at several firms in southern California I can state with confidence that it is not an issue of "quite a bit stronger;" the opportunities reach a slightly larger slice of the class by degrees at each school, such that HLS is slightly better than CLS for these jobs and CLS is slightly better than Northwestern.

If you would receive substantial need based aid, of course, that changes everything.

As for alumni network and opportunities and legacy value... that is what we are talking about. All of these are top law schools that have all of those features. The issue is the value proposition of the marginal differences between them.

I have zero interest in BL, so I may be missing something obvious...But why would Harvard Law guarantee a job in NYC, but not LA? Are LA firms more invested in finding the right 'fit' versus getting an elite school grad? Or have more interest in getting grads from more regional schools versus NYC firms?

you can be effectively bottom of your class at HLS (all P's and maybe even some LP's) and get a summer SA at a V100 firm in new york, so long as you don't fuck up your bidding/interviewing. The same cannot be said of California firms/offices. The new york market offers many times more summer associate positions than all of California