Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard) Forum

[RickyBunny]

Hi TLS fam,

I have been incredibly blessed this cycle to have the above law school option but I am struggling with making a decision. Law school debt is a big concern of mine so UVA is a major contender but, that being said, I am finding it difficult to turn down Yale. As additional color, I am not certain what my career goals are post-law school. Would love to know your thoughts.

Thanks in advance for the advice!

[Rubbishdump]

Yale, duh

[thewhalefish]

It depends on your career goals. I'll let someone else with more knowledge on Yale chime in on career prospects. But I would choose UVA. As someone else said yesterday, "The Yale acceptance letter is enough for me". UVA is still a fantastic school; if you were in the same situation but with UGA instead, then Yale would be my choice.

[armc808]

I don't think there is a JD that can open up more career doors than one from Yale. That being said, going there at sticker price means you will be taking out $200-300k in loans. You will more than have the means to pay that back (eventually), but perhaps it is worth thinking some more if you might have an idea as to what exactly you'd want to do after graduation, which could potentially make one school or the other the better fit for you. UVA actually does pretty well in federal clerkship placements, and they are a particularly strong brand in the DC market because so many of their graduates end up working in the area. On the flip side, Yale commands greater national respect and is the clear choice if academia is in your sights (they are also the best in putting students in Supreme Court clerkships). Aside from doing more research and talking to people, I think visiting both schools to get a feel for how comfortable you feel at each (if you haven't done so already) is something you should absolutely do between now and May.

[canafsa]

.

[xn3345]

I still don't understand why Yale is so much more preferred among TLS posters than Harvard, to the point of calling people crazy for choosing Harvard over full ride at a T14, but then turning around and endorsing Yale over a Dillard. Groupthink or actual logic happening here?

+1

[Npret]

How much will the COA be for each school? Will you get any need based aid from Yale?

As far as debt goes, Yale has one of the most open LRAP policies where you basically just have to have a job. Be sure to look at that closely when looking at debt repayment. It might help you make a decision.

[jbagelboy]

I still don't understand why Yale is so much more preferred among TLS posters than Harvard, to the point of calling people crazy for choosing Harvard over full ride at a T14, but then turning around and endorsing Yale over a Dillard. Groupthink or actual logic happening here?

Its one of the widest gulfs in employment outcomes between any two closely ranked USNWR schools, aside from the drop off to GULC and outside the T20. Not that us news has any value whatsoever. But Yale differs in kind from other top schools like Harvard and UVA in more measurable ways. This isn't to say OP should take Yale over UVA here or Yale over Harvard more generally--much of the same calculus applies to this decision as to UVA vs YLS, but the opportunity window gap is just wider.

You're also somewhat misconstruing the TLS groupthink. The decision depends on a number of factors. The closer the OP is to wanting to practice corporate law at a large firm in New York, the less the distinctions between the top schools matter (reaching a point of basically zero at extremes). The further away and more niche or uncharted the OP's goals are, the greater the value add of the school with lower grade cut-offs or slightly more signaling recognition. More importantly, the full rides are on a sliding scale: no one with experience questions that a Hamilton or Rubenstein is superior to $300k loans at another top school, but for a Dillard or Mordecai, you'll see more people advocating for HLS because the placement power of those schools is reduced relative to a Columbia or Chicago. Also the finances and personal circumstances matter: even modest yearly grants can make a difference. Don't dismiss nuance.

[cavalier1138]

I still don't understand why Yale is so much more preferred among TLS posters than Harvard, to the point of calling people crazy for choosing Harvard over full ride at a T14, but then turning around and endorsing Yale over a Dillard. Groupthink or actual logic happening here?

Yale gives demonstrable legs up in specific, unicorn job fields. Legal academia, SCOTUS clerk, international human rights, etc., are all job fields that Yale grads have a distinct advantage in getting. Harvard gives a bit of a boost, but it also takes a huge class. Additionally, I'd say that Harvard grads tend to do better in high-level government placement.

However, you're referring to a non-issue. The only reason people are tentatively (except the completely moronic first reply) recommending Yale is that the OP says they don't know what they want to do. In that situation, Yale is the ultimate door-opener. In the other thread you're referring to, the OP specifically stated they wanted NYC biglaw. If that were the case here, no one in their right mind would recommend Yale at sticker.

I'm leery of taking Yale at sticker, though. It would be nice to know if the OP has even a vague idea of what kind of law sounds interesting to them, and it would be even nicer to know what their other offers are.

[RickyBunny]

Thanks very much everyone. Right now, I have a strong aversion to doing big law (unfortunately, I'm a little scarred from big corporate environments from having worked in finance since graduation) but its tough for me to say that in 3 years, I wont change my mind and want to pursue big law for the sake of the experience that it provides. I'm really attracted to the freedom that being essentially debt-free brings but I'm also drawn to the universe of opportunities that Yale affords its graduates. Although I don't necessarily condone it, having gone to an ivy for undergrad, I know first-hand how school reputation/name opens up doors that would not otherwise be available.

Also to respond to some questions above:

- I have been accepted everywhere else I applied but don't have any other major merit scholarships from my top 14 choices.
- I expect to receive little need-based aid given my finance background (read: savings) notwithstanding coming from a disadvantaged background.

[jrf12886]

Given that you don't seem too interested in BigLaw, Yale would make it easier to get the types of jobs you may come to be interested in. (clerking, academia, government, public interest, etc.). "Yale at sticker" is a bit of a misnomer because they have a generous LRAP program should you go into public interest or government. (Also because my understanding is that Yale gives little or no merit-based scholarships to incoming students). And if you change your mind and go into BigLaw, at least you will have the means to pay back your loans. Obviously, this comes down to debt aversion, and that's a personal choice. I think I would pick Yale in your circumstance.

[Mullens]

Why did you apply to law school and do you even want to be a lawyer?

[jbagelboy]

Thanks very much everyone. Right now, I have a strong aversion to doing big law (unfortunately, I'm a little scarred from big corporate environments from having worked in finance since graduation) but its tough for me to say that in 3 years, I wont change my mind and want to pursue big law for the sake of the experience that it provides. I'm really attracted to the freedom that being essentially debt-free brings but I'm also drawn to the universe of opportunities that Yale affords its graduates. Although I don't necessarily condone it, having gone to an ivy for undergrad, I know first-hand how school reputation/name opens up doors that would not otherwise be available.

Also to respond to some questions above:

- I have been accepted everywhere else I applied but don't have any other major merit scholarships from my top 14 choices.
- I expect to receive little need-based aid given my finance background (read: savings) notwithstanding coming from a disadvantaged background.

I would probably go to Yale here, but I want to qualify that the "doors opening" metaphor does very little work in the comparative context of top law programs; it's a common misnomer on TLS. There aren't "doors" (i.e., career opportunities) "open" to a Yale law student that are "closed" to a Virginia law student. Rather, the same opportunities are afforded to a greater percentage of the class at Yale than at e.g. Virginia (or any other school). You may call this a distinction without a difference right now, but you recognize it's importance immediately once you start school, because all the top schools can get you to the same places, where you attend just changes how well you have to do to get there. Yale provides the greatest flexibility to its students because there's the least pressure to secure certain grades, esp. as a 1L, of any law school, whereas while the very top students at UVA can do literally anything, you have to beat out a larger percentage of your classmates on a tight curve. This is a different type of risk from taking on large amounts of debt, which limits career flexibility in other ways, but it is a risk, and the exercise here is essentially risk minimization in different directions, not "closing" or "opening" doors.

[Npret]

Chances that OP spends a day in biglaw? I'm guessing close to 0.0% from either school. OP has been in the corporate world and wants to escape.

Also it sounds like OP won't be in debt from either school because of savings. Don't know the exact amount.

Sticker at Yale according to LST is about $295,000.
It looks like UVA is going to cost about $75,000 but I can't tell exactly.

I guess it comes down to how rich OP truly is? I find it hard to justify that difference myself.

[saf18hornet]

Hi TLS fam,

I have been incredibly blessed this cycle to have the above law school option but I am struggling with making a decision. Law school debt is a big concern of mine so UVA is a major contender but, that being said, I am finding it difficult to turn down Yale. As additional color, I am not certain what my career goals are post-law school. Would love to know your thoughts.

Thanks in advance for the advice!

My philosophy is don't pay sticker anywhere. Without specific career goals, you can't justify attending Yale at that cost.

[canafsa]

.

[saf18hornet]

Its one of the widest gulfs in employment outcomes between any two closely ranked USNWR schools, aside from the drop off to GULC and outside the T20. Not that us news has any value whatsoever. But Yale differs in kind from other top schools like Harvard and UVA in more measurable ways. This isn't to say OP should take Yale over UVA here or Yale over Harvard more generally--much of the same calculus applies to this decision as to UVA vs YLS, but the opportunity window gap is just wider.

Please explain this "gap" you speak of, because my interpretation of the most recent 2015 employment data doesn't say this... but maybe i don't understand your point above. There is definitely a difference in % of clerks, but by most TLS employment standards, the two hardly qualify as an employment gulf. Given the OP has absolutely no clue what he wants to do, I recommend retiring and taking up golf as a hobby That would certainly be my dream

https://www.law.yale.edu/student-life/c ... employment
Big Law (Firms with 250+): 68/213 = 32%
Clerkship (Total): 78/213 = 37% Clerkship (Federal): 34%
**Yale Total Big Law + Clerkship(Federal) = 66%**

http://www.law.virginia.edu/pdf/aba/2015employment.pdf
Big Law (Firms with 250+): 191/367 = 52%
Clerkship(Total): 69/367 = 19% Clerkship(Federal): 58/367 = 16%
**UVA Total Big Law + Clerkship(Federal) = 68%**

[TAD]

Why did you apply to law school and do you even want to be a lawyer?

Not necessarily wanting a 20 year career in big law =/= not wanting to be a lawyer

Think Mullens was referring to OP's not knowing career goals post law school and coming from finance background - Though still agree that one shouldn't characterize OP as not wanting to be a lawyer.

[saf18hornet]

Its one of the widest gulfs in employment outcomes between any two closely ranked USNWR schools, aside from the drop off to GULC and outside the T20. Not that us news has any value whatsoever. But Yale differs in kind from other top schools like Harvard and UVA in more measurable ways. This isn't to say OP should take Yale over UVA here or Yale over Harvard more generally--much of the same calculus applies to this decision as to UVA vs YLS, but the opportunity window gap is just wider.

Please explain this "gap" you speak of, because my interpretation of the most recent 2015 employment data doesn't say this... but maybe i don't understand your point above. There is definitely a difference in % of clerks, but by most TLS employment standards, the two hardly qualify as an employment gulf. Given the OP has absolutely no clue what he wants to do, I recommend retiring and taking up golf as a hobby That would certainly be my dream

https://www.law.yale.edu/student-life/c ... employment
Big Law (Firms with 250+): 68/213 = 32%
Clerkship (Total): 78/213 = 37% Clerkship (Federal): 34%
**Yale Total Big Law + Clerkship(Federal) = 66%**

http://www.law.virginia.edu/pdf/aba/2015employment.pdf
Big Law (Firms with 250+): 191/367 = 52%
Clerkship(Total): 69/367 = 19% Clerkship(Federal): 58/367 = 16%
**UVA Total Big Law + Clerkship(Federal) = 68%**

[saf18hornet]

Its one of the widest gulfs in employment outcomes between any two closely ranked USNWR schools, aside from the drop off to GULC and outside the T20. Not that us news has any value whatsoever. But Yale differs in kind from other top schools like Harvard and UVA in more measurable ways. This isn't to say OP should take Yale over UVA here or Yale over Harvard more generally--much of the same calculus applies to this decision as to UVA vs YLS, but the opportunity window gap is just wider.

Please explain this "gap" you speak of, because my interpretation of the most recent 2015 employment data doesn't say this... but maybe i don't understand your point above. There is definitely a difference in % of clerks, but by most TLS employment standards, the two hardly qualify as an employment gulf. Given the OP has absolutely no clue what he wants to do, I recommend retiring and taking up golf as a hobby That would certainly be my dream

https://www.law.yale.edu/student-life/c ... employment
Big Law (Firms with 250+): 68/213 = 32%
Clerkship (Total): 78/213 = 37% Clerkship (Federal): 34%
**Yale Total Big Law + Clerkship(Federal) = 66%**

http://www.law.virginia.edu/pdf/aba/2015employment.pdf
Big Law (Firms with 250+): 191/367 = 52%
Clerkship(Total): 69/367 = 19% Clerkship(Federal): 58/367 = 16%
**UVA Total Big Law + Clerkship(Federal) = 68%**

[BlendedUnicorn]

Yale UVA, duh

e. I also think that with an Ivy undergrad and the finance background you'll have more "doors" open than your normal k-jd. Minimize your debt to maximize your flexibility.

[cavalier1138]

Its one of the widest gulfs in employment outcomes between any two closely ranked USNWR schools, aside from the drop off to GULC and outside the T20. Not that us news has any value whatsoever. But Yale differs in kind from other top schools like Harvard and UVA in more measurable ways. This isn't to say OP should take Yale over UVA here or Yale over Harvard more generally--much of the same calculus applies to this decision as to UVA vs YLS, but the opportunity window gap is just wider.

Please explain this "gap" you speak of, because my interpretation of the most recent 2015 employment data doesn't say this... but maybe i don't understand your point above.

https://www.law.yale.edu/student-life/c ... employment
Big Law (Firms with 250+): 68/213 = 32%
Clerkship (Total): 78/213 = 37% Clerkship (Federal): 34%
**Yale Total Big Law + Clerkship(Federal) = 66%**

http://www.law.virginia.edu/pdf/aba/2015employment.pdf
Big Law (Firms with 250+): 191/367 = 52%
Clerkship(Total): 69/367 = 19% Clerkship(Federal): 58/367 = 16%
**UVA Total Big Law + Clerkship(Federal) = 68%**

Look at the clerkship numbers alone. No one is arguing that Yale is a better choice for biglaw. The measurable difference is in more competitive areas, like federal clerkships.

[canafsa]

.

[saf18hornet]

Its one of the widest gulfs in employment outcomes between any two closely ranked USNWR schools, aside from the drop off to GULC and outside the T20. Not that us news has any value whatsoever. But Yale differs in kind from other top schools like Harvard and UVA in more measurable ways. This isn't to say OP should take Yale over UVA here or Yale over Harvard more generally--much of the same calculus applies to this decision as to UVA vs YLS, but the opportunity window gap is just wider.

Please explain this "gap" you speak of, because my interpretation of the most recent 2015 employment data doesn't say this... but maybe i don't understand your point above.

https://www.law.yale.edu/student-life/c ... employment
Big Law (Firms with 250+): 68/213 = 32%
Clerkship (Total): 78/213 = 37% Clerkship (Federal): 34%
**Yale Total Big Law + Clerkship(Federal) = 66%**

http://www.law.virginia.edu/pdf/aba/2015employment.pdf
Big Law (Firms with 250+): 191/367 = 52%
Clerkship(Total): 69/367 = 19% Clerkship(Federal): 58/367 = 16%
**UVA Total Big Law + Clerkship(Federal) = 68%**

Look at the clerkship numbers alone. No one is arguing that Yale is a better choice for biglaw. The measurable difference is in more competitive areas, like federal clerkships.

I'll argue Yale will land you a better chance for a better job in big law

Very true! If his goal was a V10 firm, it would be obvious. If his goal was simply a 190k biglaw job, both are essentially equal.

[Npret]

Its one of the widest gulfs in employment outcomes between any two closely ranked USNWR schools, aside from the drop off to GULC and outside the T20. Not that us news has any value whatsoever. But Yale differs in kind from other top schools like Harvard and UVA in more measurable ways. This isn't to say OP should take Yale over UVA here or Yale over Harvard more generally--much of the same calculus applies to this decision as to UVA vs YLS, but the opportunity window gap is just wider.

Please explain this "gap" you speak of, because my interpretation of the most recent 2015 employment data doesn't say this... but maybe i don't understand your point above.

https://www.law.yale.edu/student-life/c ... employment
Big Law (Firms with 250+): 68/213 = 32%
Clerkship (Total): 78/213 = 37% Clerkship (Federal): 34%
**Yale Total Big Law + Clerkship(Federal) = 66%**

http://www.law.virginia.edu/pdf/aba/2015employment.pdf
Big Law (Firms with 250+): 191/367 = 52%
Clerkship(Total): 69/367 = 19% Clerkship(Federal): 58/367 = 16%
**UVA Total Big Law + Clerkship(Federal) = 68%**

Look at the clerkship numbers alone. No one is arguing that Yale is a better choice for biglaw. The measurable difference is in more competitive areas, like federal clerkships.

I'll argue Yale will land you a better chance for a better job in big law

What better job in biglaw might that be? I know some firms feel that Yale grads are more academic than practical. You may be right but I think biglaw generally prefers the workaholic prestige and money chasers over the academics.