Suffolk or William Mitchell?? Forum

[DCnative]

I'm having difficulty deciding between these two schools. Obviously the market is very different since they are in completely different areas of the country. However, they are my best options right now, and I'm hoping to transfer up somewhere else after 1L. (I know this could be difficult, but it could at least be worth a shot after seeing how well I do.)

I've heard that it's easier to move around a degree from the Northeast than one from any other area of the country. I'm fairly certain both of these schools are regional schools, Boston and Minneapolis respectively, and I'm not too tied to one area over the other. Minneapolis is colder for sure, but has the added benefit of a lower cost of living (to help ease debt a little bit) and I have a lot of friends in the area for a stronger support base and help getting around the area. I feel like Suffolk might be the better law school, but Boston has such a high cost of living. I am originally from Washington DC and currently live in NJ, so either way I would be moving away from my home(s). I have a strong interest in Environmental or International Human Rights Law, but that could obviously change once I get to school.

Any advice about the culture/employment statistics, etc of each school would be lots of help! I haven't heard financial aid awards yet, and that could make or break my decision. I'm also still waiting to hear from a few other law schools. Most likely I won't get into them, but still holding out a slight inkling of hope regardless. I have a few other acceptances (Hamline $$, New England $$, John Marshall - Chicago, Duquesne) and a couple waitlists (Rutgers-Camden and UBaltimore). Thoughts??

[dpk711]

first post eh?
I don't want to be the first person to say it but everyone here is going to say retake -- and in this situation I would probably have to agree with general TLS consensus.

[DCnative]

I've been retaking and it's simply not an option anymore. I've taken it three times, and despite doing decently in practice, I can't seem to knock out a decent LSAT score on test day. (I studied my butt off each time.)

I'm looking for decent advice on either school - there's no way I'm waiting another round to apply to law school. This is my second go at it, and no negativity can stray me from that decision since I've invested entirely too much energy and time into it at this point. Please give advice on the schools themselves, not whether or not I should retake.

[YankeesFan]

WM is a good school in a relatively unsaturated market. There is a thread here about a Biglaw associate who says that his firm OCIs there and looks at top 10%. The only other school better than it in the same market is UMN.

Suffolk on the other hand is competing with BU, BC, Harvard, Northeastern, New England, UMN, U Maine and every other Northeast school trying to get into Boston. Boston was also one of the harder hit cities in the recession and just started to recover.

Answer: WM (but I still cringe at the prospect of going at sticker)

[bearsfan1]

I've been retaking and it's simply not an option anymore. I've taken it three times, and despite doing decently in practice, I can't seem to knock out a decent LSAT score on test day. (I studied my butt off each time.)

I'm looking for decent advice on either school - there's no way I'm waiting another round to apply to law school. This is my second go at it, and no negativity can stray me from that decision since I've invested entirely too much energy and time into it at this point. Please give advice on the schools themselves, not whether or not I should retake.

What were your scores?

[paratactical]

I've been retaking and it's simply not an option anymore. I've taken it three times, and despite doing decently in practice, I can't seem to knock out a decent LSAT score on test day. (I studied my butt off each time.)

I'm looking for decent advice on either school - there's no way I'm waiting another round to apply to law school. This is my second go at it, and no negativity can stray me from that decision since I've invested entirely too much energy and time into it at this point. Please give advice on the schools themselves, not whether or not I should retake.

You should reconsider law school and look for an alternative career path.

[ibwgbc11]

I live in Boston. It's a great city and I love it here, but do not go to Suffolk. Seriously. I'm not trying to be mean but it is not a good idea. Boston has way too many schools that are much, much better than Suffolk for you to compete.

I don't know as much about William Mitchell, from what I do know (and I really hate to say this) but I would not go there either. For your own sake, please reconsider going to law school. Please.

[Slevin Kelevra 2011]

Seriously, don't go to either. Both are school names that you say when meeting someone and they just laugh that you attended, even if you got a full scholarship. It immediately discredits you. Not worth the opportunity cost, let alone whatever tack-on tuition you would have to pay.

[Kaves]

I've been retaking and it's simply not an option anymore. I've taken it three times, and despite doing decently in practice, I can't seem to knock out a decent LSAT score on test day. (I studied my butt off each time.)

I'm looking for decent advice on either school - there's no way I'm waiting another round to apply to law school. This is my second go at it, and no negativity can stray me from that decision since I've invested entirely too much energy and time into it at this point. Please give advice on the schools themselves, not whether or not I should retake.

You should reconsider law school and look for an alternative career path.

While I typically hate this idea of thinking. This is actually a decent response, your considering moving across the country for a chance at a school that is although not bad, certainly not good. The market is saturated with 4 schools in the area and WM is not the top dog. If it was local and you had ties it may be worth considering but coming from DC I think you would struggle with placement.

[paratactical]

You should reconsider law school and look for an alternative career path.

While I typically hate this idea of thinking. This is actually a decent response, your considering moving across the country for a chance at a school that is although not bad, certainly not good. The market is saturated with 4 schools in the area and WM is not the top dog. If it was local and you had ties it may be worth considering but coming from DC I think you would struggle with placement.

It's way too difficult and scary ITE to go after school in a place you don't have real ties to that doesn't place well. If the OP is set on law school, they should take a few years and a few night classes to improve their ability to do well on the LSAT and retake in a few years where work experience could help with their admissions.

[DCnative]

Nice try guys - not reconsidering my decision to go to law school. My inability to score well on the LSAT will NOT affect my future in law as much as you guys are making it out to be. The reason why I won't wait to retake or reapply for another cycle is because I feel my strengths are best shown through my practical work. I've worked at two different law firms, once in college, and another for almost 2 years out of college. The truth of the matter is, I know I have my work cut out for me, but am familiar enough with the prospects in the field to know that it isn't worth waiting another year. It also isn't worth it for me to quit either, because I know that once I get to law school I'll have a little bit of an edge having worked in the legal field. I have a passion for it, and anything short of that would be shortchanging myself to consider a different career path. I have no interest in BigLaw, and am not wedded to making an excruciatingly large paycheck either, so I don't need or want to go to a huge top-dog law school. I know you also don't need to in order to be successful - I know plenty of recent graduates from non top-dog schools that aren't struggling at all. Just gotta know what you're getting into before you go for it. Y'all are debbie downers sometimes, but seriously please don't discourage those who have already thoroughly thought this through!

That being said - I have networking in Minneapolis, but non in Boston. However, Boston has more opportunities to transfer if I were to do well enough as a 1L. William Mitchell's main competition is UMN, and Suffolk has a TON of competition, but I've still heard from a lot of people that Suffolk Law grads hold their own in the Boston market. Does anyone have any statistics on the OCI for each school, or what fields their graduates typically go into? I've been looking but can't find this information anywhere.

[paratactical]

but I've still heard from a lot of people that Suffolk Law grads hold their own in the Boston market.

I work in biglaw in Boston. Suffolk grads without local ties are unemployed.

[DCnative]

Thanks for the tip!

[ibwgbc11]

I've been looking but can't find this information anywhere.

Hmmmm, I wonder why that is.

[dr123]

William Mitchell holds its own in the Twin Cities, definitely a decent option

[dougroberts]

I am a 2L at WM, and have a summer associate position lined up for this summer at a top firm here in MN. In MN, for most firms, your only competition is UMN and maybe a handful of candidates from UW, Iowa, Northwestern, and Chicago. If you are top 10% after 1L year at WM, you should be able to get a summer associate position at least. I know at least 3 people who I would consider smarter than me, and would suspect that their ranks are better than mine (I am in the top 10 # of students). All 3 of these got positions at the top firms in town.

But, if you are paying sticker, you may want to reconsider.

[DCnative]

I am a 2L at WM, and have a summer associate position lined up for this summer at a top firm here in MN. In MN, for most firms, your only competition is UMN and maybe a handful of candidates from UW, Iowa, Northwestern, and Chicago. If you are top 10% after 1L year at WM, you should be able to get a summer associate position at least. I know at least 3 people who I would consider smarter than me, and would suspect that their ranks are better than mine (I am in the top 10 # of students). All 3 of these got positions at the top firms in town.

But, if you are paying sticker, you may want to reconsider.

What are your thoughts on the competition level at WM? I applied after I visited the school back in the fall. I was impressed with what I saw of the staff/faculty, but could not get a read on the students. I know that despite low LSAT scores, I have a decent shot of doing well in law school with my experience, so knowing how competitive a school is may help my decision along. Thanks for the great advice!

[dpk711]

I am a 2L at WM, and have a summer associate position lined up for this summer at a top firm here in MN. In MN, for most firms, your only competition is UMN and maybe a handful of candidates from UW, Iowa, Northwestern, and Chicago. If you are top 10% after 1L year at WM, you should be able to get a summer associate position at least. I know at least 3 people who I would consider smarter than me, and would suspect that their ranks are better than mine (I am in the top 10 # of students). All 3 of these got positions at the top firms in town.

But, if you are paying sticker, you may want to reconsider.

What are your thoughts on the competition level at WM? I applied after I visited the school back in the fall. I was impressed with what I saw of the staff/faculty, but could not get a read on the students. I know that despite low LSAT scores, I have a decent shot of doing well in law school with my experience, so knowing how competitive a school is may help my decision along. Thanks for the great advice!

I would warn though that one should never expect to be top 10% at any law school, even a TTTT.

[DCnative]

I am a 2L at WM, and have a summer associate position lined up for this summer at a top firm here in MN. In MN, for most firms, your only competition is UMN and maybe a handful of candidates from UW, Iowa, Northwestern, and Chicago. If you are top 10% after 1L year at WM, you should be able to get a summer associate position at least. I know at least 3 people who I would consider smarter than me, and would suspect that their ranks are better than mine (I am in the top 10 # of students). All 3 of these got positions at the top firms in town.

But, if you are paying sticker, you may want to reconsider.

What are your thoughts on the competition level at WM? I applied after I visited the school back in the fall. I was impressed with what I saw of the staff/faculty, but could not get a read on the students. I know that despite low LSAT scores, I have a decent shot of doing well in law school with my experience, so knowing how competitive a school is may help my decision along. Thanks for the great advice!

I would warn though that one should never expect to be top 10% at any law school, even a TTTT.

Of course not. I know LS is incredibly different from college, but going into it with a positive attitude and a lot of motivation doesn't harm. I have a decent shot of doing well, never said I expect to! Definitely not going thinking I'm going to automatically place well. Those cards will just have to be dealt once I get there.

[taxnstuff]

If you don't have the financial means to deal with sticker and being unemployed, you are playing with house money and its probably a bad idea.

[cmraider]

WM is a good school in a relatively unsaturated market. There is a thread here about a Biglaw associate who says that his firm OCIs there and looks at top 10%. The only other school better than it in the same market is UMN.

Suffolk on the other hand is competing with BU, BC, Harvard, Northeastern, New England, UMN, U Maine and every other Northeast school trying to get into Boston. Boston was also one of the harder hit cities in the recession and just started to recover.

Answer: WM (but I still cringe at the prospect of going at sticker)

If I remember correctly, MinnesotaBigLaw said that, despite the USNWR rankings, WM is behind St. Thomas in the Twin Cities. He said that law firms go deeper into the class at St. Thomas than at WM (although the difference is like top 15% compared to top 10%). Perhaps the USNWR rankings are reflecting this, since I think WM had the largest drop in the most recent rankings.

According to him, the fact that WM is not associated with a UG hurts its placement, since the alumni network originates solely from the law school. Likewise, he said, and I hate to use these words, that St. Thomas is considered an up and coming law school. This is due in large part by the university recently investing heavily in the law program through facilities, faculty, and just appearing to give a shit about trying to make the school the best it can be. It's building a reputation with the TC firms, which when looking at regional schools like St. Thomas, WM and Suffolk, is much more crucial than the rankings.

EDIT: here's the thread, which is very informative, where he talks about the Twin Cities legal market, MN law schools and BigLaw life http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... sotabiglaw

[wizard]

First of all, I would like to know the qualifications of the people who are advising you against going to law school. Did they hear from a cousin of a friend who read third tier reality that you are going to melt if you go to one of these schools. These people are all negative, pessimistic PUSSIES. They probably go to Touro and have nothing better to do than troll these forums talking shit about law schools outside the T14. These people can talk shit from their keyboard from their mommy's basement but they clearly have no fucking clue what the practice of law is about.
I think that both of these school's place equally well in their respective markets. In Boston you are not going to be competing with Harvard and BU so much because these people are trying to get to NYC. Suffolk will trump New England, Western New England and Maine every day, all day in Boston. BC grads are going for firm jobs for the most part but they as well as Northeastern will be the major competition. Suffolk alums comprise 80% of DA offices and judges in the state of Massachusetts as well as many elected officials on Beacon Hill and other people in government. There are those Suffolk grads who are unemployed and attempting to hang their own shingle etc. But Suffolk has one of the largest classes of all law schools, something like 600 people in each class between day and evening division. Thus, if the 200 people in the bottom of the class are struggling to get that first job there are still 200 people who have legal employment. If you are top 15% at Suffolk biglaw is a real possibility also. I am a former paralegal for a major firm and I know what I'm talking about. I considered WM too but in the end Boston is a much cooler city with a lot more industry and the ocean nearby. I consider everything between Cali and Boston a "fly over" state.

Also, Scholarship money is pointless these days. Lets say you go to Suffolk which costs $40,000 per year and you get a 20,000 per year scholarship. Well, with cost of living you are paying 45,000 per year. At the end of three years the loan payments for 135000 in loans are not going to be any more manageable than those for 195000 per year. Hence, you will be using IBR either way and getting loan forgiveness after 25 years. So, live it up! Start your career like a true lawyer.... Get yours and stick the bill to uncle sam. It's the new American way. The only thing better than this is sticking the bill to uncle sam and then suing the city you live in on a daily basis for MBTA accidents and slip and falls on city sidewalks etc. Then you are fucking the government so that you can make a career of fucking the government.

[dpk711]

First of all, I would like to know the qualifications of the people who are advising you against going to law school. Did they hear from a cousin of a friend who read third tier reality that you are going to melt if you go to one of these schools. These people are all negative, pessimistic PUSSIES. They probably go to Touro and have nothing better to do than troll these forums talking shit about law schools outside the T14. These people can talk shit from their keyboard from their mommy's basement but they clearly have no fucking clue what the practice of law is about.
I think that both of these school's place equally well in their respective markets. In Boston you are not going to be competing with Harvard and BU so much because these people are trying to get to NYC. Suffolk will trump New England, Western New England and Maine every day, all day in Boston. BC grads are going for firm jobs for the most part but they as well as Northeastern will be the major competition. Suffolk alums comprise 80% of DA offices and judges in the state of Massachusetts as well as many elected officials on Beacon Hill and other people in government. There are those Suffolk grads who are unemployed and attempting to hang their own shingle etc. But Suffolk has one of the largest classes of all law schools, something like 600 people in each class between day and evening division. Thus, if the 200 people in the bottom of the class are struggling to get that first job there are still 200 people who have legal employment. If you are top 15% at Suffolk biglaw is a real possibility also. I am a former paralegal for a major firm and I know what I'm talking about. I considered WM too but in the end Boston is a much cooler city with a lot more industry and the ocean nearby. I consider everything between Cali and Boston a "fly over" state.

Also, Scholarship money is pointless these days. Lets say you go to Suffolk which costs $40,000 per year and you get a 20,000 per year scholarship. Well, with cost of living you are paying 45,000 per year. At the end of three years the loan payments for 135000 in loans are not going to be any more manageable than those for 195000 per year. Hence, you will be using IBR either way and getting loan forgiveness after 25 years. So, live it up! Start your career like a true lawyer.... Get yours and stick the bill to uncle sam. It's the new American way. The only thing better than this is sticking the bill to uncle sam and then suing the city you live in on a daily basis for MBTA accidents and slip and falls on city sidewalks etc. Then you are fucking the government so that you can make a career of fucking the government.

FTFY, and also I don't go to Touro -- I will be attending a T14 with $$$ this fall.

[bearsfan1]

First of all, I would like to know the qualifications of the people who are advising you against going to law school. Did they hear from a cousin of a friend who read third tier reality that you are going to melt if you go to one of these schools. These people are all negative, pessimistic PUSSIES. They probably go to Touro and have nothing better to do than troll these forums talking shit about law schools outside the T14. These people can talk shit from their keyboard from their mommy's basement but they clearly have no fucking clue what the practice of law is about.
I think that both of these school's place equally well in their respective markets. In Boston you are not going to be competing with Harvard and BU so much because these people are trying to get to NYC. Suffolk will trump New England, Western New England and Maine every day, all day in Boston. BC grads are going for firm jobs for the most part but they as well as Northeastern will be the major competition. Suffolk alums comprise 80% of DA offices and judges in the state of Massachusetts as well as many elected officials on Beacon Hill and other people in government. There are those Suffolk grads who are unemployed and attempting to hang their own shingle etc. But Suffolk has one of the largest classes of all law schools, something like 600 people in each class between day and evening division. Thus, if the 200 people in the bottom of the class are struggling to get that first job there are still 200 people who have legal employment. If you are top 15% at Suffolk biglaw is a real possibility also. I am a former paralegal for a major firm and I know what I'm talking about. I considered WM too but in the end Boston is a much cooler city with a lot more industry and the ocean nearby. I consider everything between Cali and Boston a "fly over" state.

Also, Scholarship money is pointless these days. Lets say you go to Suffolk which costs $40,000 per year and you get a 20,000 per year scholarship. Well, with cost of living you are paying 45,000 per year. At the end of three years the loan payments for 135000 in loans are not going to be any more manageable than those for 195000 per year. Hence, you will be using IBR either way and getting loan forgiveness after 25 years. So, live it up! Start your career like a true lawyer.... Get yours and stick the bill to uncle sam. It's the new American way. The only thing better than this is sticking the bill to uncle sam and then suing the city you live in on a daily basis for MBTA accidents and slip and falls on city sidewalks etc. Then you are fucking the government so that you can make a career of fucking the government.

What the fuck. You think it's bad that there are people on here in their mommy's basement trying to stop a person from making a terrible life choice? But it's so much better that you're in the corner of your trailer/mobile meth lab telling a guy to take out an assload of loans because it's the "American way"? All Harvard and BU grads are trying to get to NYC? If somebody goes to BOSTON University, wouldn't that lead one to believe that they would eventually want to end up in Boston? If somebody got into BU and wants to eventually work in NYC, why not go to St. John's or fucking Fordham? "Suffolk will trump New England and Maine". Get the fuck out of here. I guess we're forgetting about UConn, MAINE, Northeastern, etc, etc, etc, etc, fucking Syracuse grads go to NE for god's sake. "Suffolk will trump New England", lol I still can't believe I read that. You said that if there's "200 people struggling to get that first job, but there are 200 with legal employment". You also said that the class size was 600. Where's the other 200? Oh, let me guess, they dropped out or were kicked out after their 1L? So out of those who go to Suffolk, only 1/3 of them will eventually obtain legal employment. But 15% of that 33% has a good shot at big law. BIGLAW. Laugh you right out of the room wizard. I'm not even gonna comment. But just because a lawfirm office is located in a building larger than your mobile meth lab does not make that law firm apart of BIGLAW. "Boston is a much cooler city with alot more industry and the ocean nearby".- Definitely listen to this advice OP, having an ocean nearby is crucial to obtaining employment with a law firm. With regards to your idea of scholarships, you're actually the reason our country's going to shit. PUSSIES like you would rather live off the government and taxpayer's money than make your own way in life. Let me guess, you're one of those people who goes to WALMART dressed up in a suit only to whip out food stamps to buy your steak, chicken, and lobster?

[DCnative]

FTFY, and also I don't go to Touro -- I will be attending a T14 with $$$ this fall.

How mature, dpk711. Real mature. I hope you find that sense of entitlement you're looking for from bashing other people in a forum.


Thanks, wizard, for the stats. It's what I've been suspecting all along. I know I'll have competition at either school, I guess now it's just a matter of figuring out which school I'd be most comfortable at. My problem has been that after visiting both of them (albeit at completely different times - WM back in the fall and Suffolk just a few weeks ago), I could see myself in either place, and was hopefully looking for opinions to see if either of the two schools would stand out in a crowd, haha. Thanks for your words of encouragement! I know it's not all T14, Biglaw or bust. Glad to know there's someone else out there that know that.

Thanks for the link to the other forum, cmraider. I've looked it over and have definitely considered SThomas. I'm actually still waiting to hear back from them, so they very well could still be an option. They have incredible facilities and really do seem to be coming up in the ranks in the Twin Cities area, especially in private interest law. Although I worry that MinnesotaBigLaw's stats may not be 100% truthful since they're mostly reflective of the practices of his particular firm - I'd be curious to see hiring stats for other area firms. Perhaps SThomas has a specialty that his firm deems hirable that WM doesn't have, but other firms may not?

At any rate, the one problem I had with SThomas when I visited was the intensely Catholic undertones my entire visit had. Do you by any chance know what the culture of the school is like? I didn't get the chance to speak to any students while I was there, but it seemed to me that while they say the school is supportive, diverse, etc, that the Catholic history of the school still plays a major part in the culture of the school. That's my main drawback of considering going there should I be accepted. I'm not sure that approach would make me comfortable if it's true, whereas I feel WM's approach is much more practical for the field. If you have any additional input, that would be fantastic!