Best V20 lit firms? Forum

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Best V20 lit firms?

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:03 pm

What are the best V20 firms for litigation? NY/DC/LA are target markets. I’ve read V20 is a proxy for NY but that’s my number 1 market so probably useful to refer to. But curious about strength in lit specifically. Thanks!

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Re: Best V20 lit firms?

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:13 pm

Cleary and Debevoise are probably the strongest two. After them, Ropes/Sidley/Milbank/Weil. Technically Cov and Quinn are better than anyone else on this list, but they're also significantly more selective. White and Case and Cooley aren't as strong for lit iirc.

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Re: Best V20 lit firms?

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:19 pm

NY- Debevoise, Gibson, Paul Weiss, Skadden, Cleary, Kirkland

DC- Covington, Gibson, Williams, Kirkland

LA- Quinn, Gibson, Munger, O’melveny

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Re: Best V20 lit firms?

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:13 pm
Cleary and Debevoise are probably the strongest two. After them, Ropes/Sidley/Milbank/Weil. Technically Cov and Quinn are better than anyone else on this list, but they're also significantly more selective. White and Case and Cooley aren't as strong for lit iirc.
Cov DC is by far and away the best firm on this list, yes. After that, Quinn LA also blows the competition out of the water.

But assuming OP is addressing NY offices only, it's probably something like:

Quinn >= Deb, Cleary > Milbank > Weil/Cov >> Sidley/W&C >> Ropes/Cooley
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Best V20 lit firms?

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:25 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:19 pm
NY- Debevoise, Gibson, Paul Weiss, Skadden, Cleary, Kirkland

DC- Covington, Gibson, Williams, Kirkland

LA- Quinn, Gibson, Munger, O’melveny
What in the 0L brainfuck?

NY - Includes Skadden and Kirkland, now cemented V10, on a V20 thread. Leaves out other strong lit/WC groups like S&C, DPW, Cravath.
DC - lists Gibson and Kirkland but not Latham, WilmerHale, A&P. Ok?
LA - Munger is not like the rest. O'Melveny is also not like the rest. And if you're going to list Quinn and Gibson, might as well list Latham too?

OP - ignore this idiotic post LOL

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Re: Best V20 lit firms?

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:30 pm

^^^^lmao I love how mad TLS posters get over shit like this. So much pent up anger

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Re: Best V20 lit firms?

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:03 pm
What are the best V20 firms for litigation? NY/DC/LA are target markets. I’ve read V20 is a proxy for NY but that’s my number 1 market so probably useful to refer to. But curious about strength in lit specifically. Thanks!
Also, for lit firms, many elite ones are lower down the Vault rankings which is basically just a crowdpoll of what NYC corp associates think are the most presTTTigious firms. Ask top 10% 2Ls and 3Ls at your school - they'll know which ones are elite.

Aside from lit boutiques (Susman, Kellogg, Bartlit, Kaplan, etc), notable ones down the Vault list include Munger, Jenner (DC), and Williams & Connolly. Any one of those three are more selective than any V10 firm not named Wachtell by multiple orders of magnitude.

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Re: Best V20 lit firms?

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:25 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:19 pm
NY- Debevoise, Gibson, Paul Weiss, Skadden, Cleary, Kirkland

DC- Covington, Gibson, Williams, Kirkland

LA- Quinn, Gibson, Munger, O’melveny
What in the 0L brainfuck?

NY - Includes Skadden and Kirkland, now cemented V10, on a V20 thread. Leaves out other strong lit/WC groups like S&C, DPW, Cravath.
DC - lists Gibson and Kirkland but not Latham, WilmerHale, A&P. Ok?
LA - Munger is not like the rest. O'Melveny is also not like the rest. And if you're going to list Quinn and Gibson, might as well list Latham too?

OP - ignore this idiotic post LOL
OP, for the love of god, go on Chambers and look there. They do this professionally. This list omits Cravath, Davis Polk, Latham, Weil - all strong NY lit shops.

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Re: Best V20 lit firms?

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:32 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:28 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:25 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:19 pm
NY- Debevoise, Gibson, Paul Weiss, Skadden, Cleary, Kirkland

DC- Covington, Gibson, Williams, Kirkland

LA- Quinn, Gibson, Munger, O’melveny
What in the 0L brainfuck?

NY - Includes Skadden and Kirkland, now cemented V10, on a V20 thread. Leaves out other strong lit/WC groups like S&C, DPW, Cravath.
DC - lists Gibson and Kirkland but not Latham, WilmerHale, A&P. Ok?
LA - Munger is not like the rest. O'Melveny is also not like the rest. And if you're going to list Quinn and Gibson, might as well list Latham too?

OP - ignore this idiotic post LOL
OP, for the love of god, go on Chambers and look there. They do this professionally. This list omits Cravath, Davis Polk, Latham, Weil - all strong NY lit shops.
He said v20, which suggests he's talking about V11-20, not about the V10s. Cravath/DPW/S&C/Latham/GDC are all excellent for lit, obvs, but that's not the focus of this thread

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Re: Best V20 lit firms?

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:32 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:28 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:25 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:19 pm
NY- Debevoise, Gibson, Paul Weiss, Skadden, Cleary, Kirkland

DC- Covington, Gibson, Williams, Kirkland

LA- Quinn, Gibson, Munger, O’melveny
What in the 0L brainfuck?

NY - Includes Skadden and Kirkland, now cemented V10, on a V20 thread. Leaves out other strong lit/WC groups like S&C, DPW, Cravath.
DC - lists Gibson and Kirkland but not Latham, WilmerHale, A&P. Ok?
LA - Munger is not like the rest. O'Melveny is also not like the rest. And if you're going to list Quinn and Gibson, might as well list Latham too?

OP - ignore this idiotic post LOL
OP, for the love of god, go on Chambers and look there. They do this professionally. This list omits Cravath, Davis Polk, Latham, Weil - all strong NY lit shops.
He said v20, which suggests he's talking about V11-20, not about the V10s. Cravath/DPW/S&C/Latham/GDC are all excellent for lit, obvs, but that's not the focus of this thread
OP seems like a 1L in desperate need of a reality check, Chambers, and the search function on TLS.

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Re: Best V20 lit firms?

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:45 am

Best for what type of litigation? Chambers breaks out categories to help you decide which type. They also give rankings for each category. But another question is why you what you be the best. Do you want to make the most money? Do you want “the best” clients? Do you want to work with people who had high GPAs in law school or who clerked? Do you want to have the most options? Do you want a firm with a broad variety of best work? The best will often differ with each of these answers. Also, random internet folks often have a dog in the fight and need to pump up their own firm. A poster that does not offer a rationale or methodology for what is best may be projecting their own insecurity about their firm onto your decision. If someone can’t say “X is the best BECAUSE…” then it’s probably best to ignore or even downgrade the suggested firms. If the firms actually are the best, an easy rationale would be available.

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Re: Best V20 lit firms?

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:45 am

.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Best V20 lit firms?

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:45 am

.

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Re: Best V20 lit firms?

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:18 pm

LA - lw, gdc, munger, omm

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Re: Best V20 lit firms?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:33 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:18 pm
LA - lw, gdc, munger, omm
Quinn happens to be headquartered in LA, FYI. Are people losing brain cells? OMM is not nearly as prestigious or selective as LW/GDC/Quinn, and listing it next to Munger is lunacy.

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Re: Best V20 lit firms?

Post by ExpOriental » Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:33 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:18 pm
LA - lw, gdc, munger, omm
Quinn happens to be headquartered in LA, FYI. Are people losing brain cells? OMM is not nearly as prestigious or selective as LW/GDC/Quinn, and listing it next to Munger is lunacy.
You automatically lose all claim to presteej when you advertise on billboards

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Re: Best V20 lit firms?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:04 pm

LA biglaw partner. My tip-top tier includes MTO/Gibson/Quinn, with Latham and OMM a half-step behind.

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Re: Best V20 lit firms?

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:31 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:30 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:03 pm
What are the best V20 firms for litigation? NY/DC/LA are target markets. I’ve read V20 is a proxy for NY but that’s my number 1 market so probably useful to refer to. But curious about strength in lit specifically. Thanks!
Also, for lit firms, many elite ones are lower down the Vault rankings which is basically just a crowdpoll of what NYC corp associates think are the most presTTTigious firms. Ask top 10% 2Ls and 3Ls at your school - they'll know which ones are elite.

Aside from lit boutiques (Susman, Kellogg, Bartlit, Kaplan, etc), notable ones down the Vault list include Munger, Jenner (DC), and Williams & Connolly. Any one of those three are more selective than any V10 firm not named Wachtell by multiple orders of magnitude.
This isn't true, Kellogg and Kaplan both hire from ~median at my school if you check certain boxes (partisanship, clerkships, the right undergrad)

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Re: Best V20 lit firms?

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:39 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:31 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:30 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:03 pm
What are the best V20 firms for litigation? NY/DC/LA are target markets. I’ve read V20 is a proxy for NY but that’s my number 1 market so probably useful to refer to. But curious about strength in lit specifically. Thanks!
Also, for lit firms, many elite ones are lower down the Vault rankings which is basically just a crowdpoll of what NYC corp associates think are the most presTTTigious firms. Ask top 10% 2Ls and 3Ls at your school - they'll know which ones are elite.

Aside from lit boutiques (Susman, Kellogg, Bartlit, Kaplan, etc), notable ones down the Vault list include Munger, Jenner (DC), and Williams & Connolly. Any one of those three are more selective than any V10 firm not named Wachtell by multiple orders of magnitude.
This isn't true, Kellogg and Kaplan both hire from ~median at my school if you check certain boxes (partisanship, clerkships, the right undergrad)
So you go to Y, where "median" is truly meaningless.

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Re: Best V20 lit firms?

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:48 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:39 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:31 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:30 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:03 pm
What are the best V20 firms for litigation? NY/DC/LA are target markets. I’ve read V20 is a proxy for NY but that’s my number 1 market so probably useful to refer to. But curious about strength in lit specifically. Thanks!
Also, for lit firms, many elite ones are lower down the Vault rankings which is basically just a crowdpoll of what NYC corp associates think are the most presTTTigious firms. Ask top 10% 2Ls and 3Ls at your school - they'll know which ones are elite.

Aside from lit boutiques (Susman, Kellogg, Bartlit, Kaplan, etc), notable ones down the Vault list include Munger, Jenner (DC), and Williams & Connolly. Any one of those three are more selective than any V10 firm not named Wachtell by multiple orders of magnitude.
This isn't true, Kellogg and Kaplan both hire from ~median at my school if you check certain boxes (partisanship, clerkships, the right undergrad)
So you go to Y, where "median" is truly meaningless.
Even from Yale, the notion that Kellogg would hire from median is absurd on its face. Maybe if you're a justice's child.

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Re: Best V20 lit firms?

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Aug 16, 2022 10:40 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:48 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:39 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:31 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:30 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:03 pm
What are the best V20 firms for litigation? NY/DC/LA are target markets. I’ve read V20 is a proxy for NY but that’s my number 1 market so probably useful to refer to. But curious about strength in lit specifically. Thanks!
Also, for lit firms, many elite ones are lower down the Vault rankings which is basically just a crowdpoll of what NYC corp associates think are the most presTTTigious firms. Ask top 10% 2Ls and 3Ls at your school - they'll know which ones are elite.

Aside from lit boutiques (Susman, Kellogg, Bartlit, Kaplan, etc), notable ones down the Vault list include Munger, Jenner (DC), and Williams & Connolly. Any one of those three are more selective than any V10 firm not named Wachtell by multiple orders of magnitude.
This isn't true, Kellogg and Kaplan both hire from ~median at my school if you check certain boxes (partisanship, clerkships, the right undergrad)
So you go to Y, where "median" is truly meaningless.
Even from Yale, the notion that Kellogg would hire from median is absurd on its face. Maybe if you're a justice's child.
I literally know someone who was just hired at Kellogg with at best slightly above median grades. I don't know what their extenuating circumstances are - I don't know them super well, I just know they did not graduate with latin and did not have an appellate clerkship.

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Re: Best V20 lit firms?

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:28 pm

Kellogg has recently hired some people with good-but-not-outstanding credentials from my school, including one without Latin honors or a clerkship, idk what’s up but the previous poster isn’t crazy. Of course they also have a bunch of associates going to SCOTUS in the near future so shrug.

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Re: Best V20 lit firms?

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:29 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:31 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:30 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:03 pm
What are the best V20 firms for litigation? NY/DC/LA are target markets. I’ve read V20 is a proxy for NY but that’s my number 1 market so probably useful to refer to. But curious about strength in lit specifically. Thanks!
Also, for lit firms, many elite ones are lower down the Vault rankings which is basically just a crowdpoll of what NYC corp associates think are the most presTTTigious firms. Ask top 10% 2Ls and 3Ls at your school - they'll know which ones are elite.

Aside from lit boutiques (Susman, Kellogg, Bartlit, Kaplan, etc), notable ones down the Vault list include Munger, Jenner (DC), and Williams & Connolly. Any one of those three are more selective than any V10 firm not named Wachtell by multiple orders of magnitude.
This isn't true, Kellogg and Kaplan both hire from ~median at my school if you check certain boxes (partisanship, clerkships, the right undergrad)
I can't believe I'm about to defend Vault...

Some firms are just too small and new to matter in the popular consciousness of a profession. It's tough when you think your firm is great because of SCOTUS clerk this or YHS summa that, but most don't know the name and it doesn't pop up on Vault. But there is a good reason for this, specifically, Susman and other small lit firms can hire 25 decently strong first years, but they can't hire 150 strong first years.

The V10-15 will have far more top credentialed first-year associates per firm than any of the lit boutiques (going by numbers, not the percentage). Vault, as flawed as it is, takes this into account. If Susman could hire 150 top associates, people would know who they are. But they can't, so Susman and the others get punished with a low vault ranking.

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Re: Best V20 lit firms?

Post by Lacepiece23 » Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:11 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:29 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:31 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:30 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:03 pm
What are the best V20 firms for litigation? NY/DC/LA are target markets. I’ve read V20 is a proxy for NY but that’s my number 1 market so probably useful to refer to. But curious about strength in lit specifically. Thanks!
Also, for lit firms, many elite ones are lower down the Vault rankings which is basically just a crowdpoll of what NYC corp associates think are the most presTTTigious firms. Ask top 10% 2Ls and 3Ls at your school - they'll know which ones are elite.

Aside from lit boutiques (Susman, Kellogg, Bartlit, Kaplan, etc), notable ones down the Vault list include Munger, Jenner (DC), and Williams & Connolly. Any one of those three are more selective than any V10 firm not named Wachtell by multiple orders of magnitude.
This isn't true, Kellogg and Kaplan both hire from ~median at my school if you check certain boxes (partisanship, clerkships, the right undergrad)
I can't believe I'm about to defend Vault...

Some firms are just too small and new to matter in the popular consciousness of a profession. It's tough when you think your firm is great because of SCOTUS clerk this or YHS summa that, but most don't know the name and it doesn't pop up on Vault. But there is a good reason for this, specifically, Susman and other small lit firms can hire 25 decently strong first years, but they can't hire 150 strong first years.

The V10-15 will have far more top credentialed first-year associates per firm than any of the lit boutiques (going by numbers, not the percentage). Vault, as flawed as it is, takes this into account. If Susman could hire 150 top associates, people would know who they are. But they can't, so Susman and the others get punished with a low vault ranking.
What? Susman couple hire that many associates in a heartbeat if they wanted to. They just don’t want to because overleverage isn’t their model. They could easily be Quinn if they wanted.

At the end of the day, the V20 is shit for litigation if you’re an associate. You won’t learn many skills until year 5 and beyond. And even then, who knows.

It’s good for making money, however. So go and do that if you’re going to a V20 firm. But you likely won’t be a good lawyer when you come out. That’s fine because most true biglaw lit partners are very average (I litigate against them everyday).

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Re: Best V20 lit firms?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:20 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:29 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:31 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:30 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:03 pm
What are the best V20 firms for litigation? NY/DC/LA are target markets. I’ve read V20 is a proxy for NY but that’s my number 1 market so probably useful to refer to. But curious about strength in lit specifically. Thanks!
Also, for lit firms, many elite ones are lower down the Vault rankings which is basically just a crowdpoll of what NYC corp associates think are the most presTTTigious firms. Ask top 10% 2Ls and 3Ls at your school - they'll know which ones are elite.

Aside from lit boutiques (Susman, Kellogg, Bartlit, Kaplan, etc), notable ones down the Vault list include Munger, Jenner (DC), and Williams & Connolly. Any one of those three are more selective than any V10 firm not named Wachtell by multiple orders of magnitude.
This isn't true, Kellogg and Kaplan both hire from ~median at my school if you check certain boxes (partisanship, clerkships, the right undergrad)
I can't believe I'm about to defend Vault...

Some firms are just too small and new to matter in the popular consciousness of a profession. It's tough when you think your firm is great because of SCOTUS clerk this or YHS summa that, but most don't know the name and it doesn't pop up on Vault. But there is a good reason for this, specifically, Susman and other small lit firms can hire 25 decently strong first years, but they can't hire 150 strong first years.

The V10-15 will have far more top credentialed first-year associates per firm than any of the lit boutiques (going by numbers, not the percentage). Vault, as flawed as it is, takes this into account. If Susman could hire 150 top associates, people would know who they are. But they can't, so Susman and the others get punished with a low vault ranking.
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