3.88 GPA Math Major, Chances at HLS Forum

[FJW]

Hi everyone! I'm a rising senior at a top 10 National University (per US News ranking). I'm pretty new to the whole law school application process, so please correct me if I make any wrong assumption. Initially, I wanted to work for a couple years before applying to combined JD/MBA programs, but after realizing that some law schools now accept GRE, which I just took recently for maybe applying to STEM related master's programs, I am starting to think about applying to law schools this fall. I'm not sure if I want to be a lawyer, but I feel like law schools teach people the kind thinking that can be beneficial to any career.

I am a double major in applied math and economics, with a minor in computer science. My GPA up till now is 3.88, which will likely remain so when I apply to law schools. The only two B range grades I got were from math classes, one of which is a B+ from a hardcore stochastic processes class. I did well in all my social science/humanities classes (not sure if this is good or bad). I've heard and read that law schools are more lenient with GPAs of STEM majors, but I'm not sure if that's validated. My GRE score is 167 for Verbal and 168 for Quant. I'm hesitant about taking the LSAT. From the couple of LSAT practice exams I've taken, I'm confident that I'll at least get a 170, but since I don't have much time to prep, I don't want to take the risk.

So, given a 3.88 STEM GPA and a 335 GRE, what are my chances at HLS or UChicago? I know Y/S are extremely hard to get in even with superb grades. I'm not that interested in schools lower than UChicago because if I don't get into HLS or UChicago, I would prefer to stick with my old plan of applying after a couple of years of work.

BTW, I'm an international student (Asian male). Thank you guys!

[QContinuum]

Hi everyone! I'm a rising senior at a top 10 National University (per US News ranking). I'm pretty new to the whole law school application process, so please correct me if I make any wrong assumption. Initially, I wanted to work for a couple years before applying to combined JD/MBA programs, but after realizing that some law schools now accept GRE, which I just took recently for maybe applying to STEM related master's programs, I am starting to think about applying to law schools this fall. I'm not sure if I want to be a lawyer, but I feel like law schools teach people the kind thinking that can be beneficial to any career.

Don't go to law school if you don't want to be a lawyer. It sounds like you're interested in going into business. The J.D. will add basically no value over the MBA in that context. I would just do the MBA and save yourself the time and money of doing the J.D.

So, given a 3.88 STEM GPA and a 335 GRE, what are my chances at HLS or UChicago? I know Y/S are extremely hard to get in even with superb grades. I'm not that interested in schools lower than UChicago because if I don't get into HLS or UChicago, I would prefer to stick with my old plan of applying after a couple of years of work.

I don't think there are any goals for which Harvard or Chicago would work, but Columbia or NYU would not work. That's a pretty arbitrary cutoff you've set. The typical HLS/Chicago grad will have pretty indistinguishable outcomes from the typical Columbia/NYU/Penn grad.

[cavalier1138]

Don't go to law school if you don't want to be a lawyer.

Seconded.

Even if you think you might want to be a lawyer, your first plan to take a few years to work after graduation is the right idea.

[icansortofmath]

See the recent thread on consulting in Legal Employment. My own experience is I needed JD to close a giant resume gap and MBA was not an option for me (no work exp).

I knew JD wasn't as versatile as some recruiters wanted me to believe but the actual situation is "business" employers have basically given up on recruiting JDs. Some straight up told me they thought I was a flight risk because in the past they had people just renege and take big law salary after going through the whole ibanking/consulting recruiting process, which is very expensive for them, especially since law school applicants by and large need special arrangements when it comes to scheduling (no proper OCI at most schools for instance).

That said, HLS, judging by data, seems to be an exception. It's probably worth noting I actually talked with the someone HLS career services (my school's CS gave up on helping me with consulting/ibanking jobs and just punted me to her colleague) so just another small data point that HLS may be an exception and there may still be active business recruiting. YMMV and you need to ask HLS grads.

Don't know how those GRE's place. Harvard's median LSAT is 99th percentile. But I really have no idea what GREs Harvard admits have.

[QContinuum]

See the recent thread on consulting in Legal Employment. My own experience is I needed JD to close a giant resume gap and MBA was not an option for me (no work exp).

But the lack of work experience can be remedied simply by, y'know, working for a few years. Working has the advantage of actually increasing one's net wealth, in contrast to J.D. programs which typically plunge net worth deep into the red zone.

I knew JD wasn't as versatile as some recruiters wanted me to believe but the actual situation is "business" employers have basically given up on recruiting JDs. Some straight up told me they thought I was a flight risk because in the past they had people just renege and take big law salary after going through the whole ibanking/consulting recruiting process, which is very expensive for them, especially since law school applicants by and large need special arrangements when it comes to scheduling (no proper OCI at most schools for instance).

Yes - this is exactly why OP shouldn't do the JD route, and should instead gain work experience and then do an MBA.

That said, HLS, judging by data, seems to be an exception. It's probably worth noting I actually talked with the someone HLS career services (my school's CS gave up on helping me with consulting/ibanking jobs and just punted me to her colleague) so just another small data point that HLS may be an exception and there may still be active business recruiting. YMMV and you need to ask HLS grads.

I think relative to other law schools, there are a greater number of JD/MBA candidates at HLS (in part due to HLS' sheer class size).

[icansortofmath]

My undergrad transcript was a mess. I just couldn’t get a decent job (not one I liked anyway) so far removed from the normal recruiting channels.

And most importantly, if I didn’t find business oriented job, I wouldn’t have minded a career in biglaw at all. Even now, if the right position presents itself, I might yet end up in a law firm.

[FJW]

Hi guys. Thank you guys for the advice.

I totally understand that Columbia/NYU grads are comparable to Harvard/UChicago grads. If I were to apply to law school as my main objective, I would not have distinguished them much at all. However, my main objective is to apply for masters in quantitative areas and I just came across the fact that HLS accepts GRE and thought maybe I should give it a try. As stupid as it sounds, the Harvard name still has a lot of weight in the country I came from, so this might be an opportunity I want to seize in case I ever return to my home country.

Anyways, I'm still curious about my chances at HLS if it's possible to be gauged. There are a lot of discussion on LSAT scores that will get you into HLS, but not so much on GRE.

[QContinuum]

Hi guys. Thank you guys for the advice.

I totally understand that Columbia/NYU grads are comparable to Harvard/UChicago grads. If I were to apply to law school as my main objective, I would not have distinguished them much at all. However, my main objective is to apply for masters in quantitative areas and I just came across the fact that HLS accepts GRE and thought maybe I should give it a try. As stupid as it sounds, the Harvard name still has a lot of weight in the country I came from, so this might be an opportunity I want to seize in case I ever return to my home country.

Anyways, I'm still curious about my chances at HLS if it's possible to be gauged. There are a lot of discussion on LSAT scores that will get you into HLS, but not so much on GRE.

As you say, your main objective is not to practice law. That's precisely why you shouldn't apply to law school. You should absolutely apply to Harvard Business School, which sounds like it'd be a great fit for your goals. You would get an MBA - a versatile graduate degree beneficial to just about any career - and you'd get the Harvard name. Why are you (seemingly) reluctant to apply to HBS?

[sev]

Why are you (seemingly) reluctant to apply to HBS?

HBS literally doesn't take straight throughs. K-MBAs, at least at good schools, are generally not a thing.

(For the record, I'm with the consensus that OP should take their beyond-excellent credentials and go work for MBB/ibanks (like everyone else from a top ten UG with quant skills) for a couple of years and then go to HBS. Or, they could do some soul searching about what they want to do in life instead of hunting for more prestige.)

[dvlthndr]

You are an extraordinarily poor applicant for Business school--particularly HBS--without work experience. That is fatal to your plan:

Prospective students must apply to and be separately admitted to both the Law School and the Business School, each of which will independently review and admit applicants.

Other universities will also require you to pass the admissions for both the law school and the B-school, although they might be somewhat flexible on timing and let you apply to the other school once you are in the first one.

It's still unclear to me why you would mess with Chicago without considering other schools like Columbia, NYU, and Penn. The reason you gave seems odd since (1) you say you don't care about marginal differences in law school rankings; (2) all of them take GRE scores; and (3) their business schools are some of the best in the country. I would be shocked if people in your home country could differentiate (and greatly prefer) a Booth degree over CBS or Wharton.

As for the GRE scores, I assume you should aim for a similar overall percentile as the LSAT numbers (so if the school requires the 98th percentile of LSAT scores, they would probably expect the same out of your GRE... particularly the verbal and analytical writing portions).