3.35 gpa/179 LSAT/4yrsW/E - CLS,NYU,UPEN

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Ssar

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3.35 gpa/179 LSAT/4yrsW/E - CLS,NYU,UPEN

Postby Ssar » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:47 am

I graduated in the U.K. with a degree in political science - have been told by other applicants that my addendum will cover my low GPA. I've had 4 years work experience since (In regulatory compliance/2yrs senior) and will be 27 when I begin law school. Do you think CLS, NYU, Penn or Cornell would take a second look at my application? I'm not sure if I'm the best candidate for a scholarship given I've worked for 4 years after university but I'm willing to pay the price for attending the right school. I have "softs" - marshalling (bench with senior judges), several committees at work, human rights advocacy volunteering, domestic violence legal advisory, charity fundraising, competitive sports and am wondering if this could compensate for the low GPA?

albanach

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Re: 3.35 gpa/179 LSAT/4yrsW/E - CLS,NYU,UPEN

Postby albanach » Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:20 am

Ssar wrote:I graduated in the U.K. with a degree in political science - have been told by other applicants that my addendum will cover my low GPA. I've had 4 years work experience since (In regulatory compliance/2yrs senior) and will be 27 when I begin law school. Do you think CLS, NYU, Penn or Cornell would take a second look at my application? I'm not sure if I'm the best candidate for a scholarship given I've worked for 4 years after university but I'm willing to pay the price for attending the right school. I have "softs" - marshalling (bench with senior judges), several committees at work, human rights advocacy volunteering, domestic violence legal advisory, charity fundraising, competitive sports and am wondering if this could compensate for the low GPA?


You graduated from the UK. Why do you have a GPA? WHere did this come from? Did you also have US based education? Has your transcript been evaluated by the credential assembly service? If so, how was it qualified by them?

Will you have work authorization in the US?

Your other posts suggest you don't actually have an LSAT score yet.Where did the 179 come from?

Of 100,000 test takers, about 60 will score 179 or above. Only 1,000 will score 173 or above. You're seeking to go from about 165 or the top eight percent to the top 0.1%. What leads you to believe this is feasible?

Ssar

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Re: 3.35 gpa/179 LSAT/4yrsW/E - CLS,NYU,UPEN

Postby Ssar » Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:51 pm

And to clarify since I hadn't explored the 'posts' option and can see what I posted before - I have had 3 years postgrad WE and a year during UG referred to as a placement year in the UK. It's technically an extended internship lasting a year to give undergrads a WE booster.

albanach

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Re: 3.35 gpa/179 LSAT/4yrsW/E - CLS,NYU,UPEN

Postby albanach » Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:27 pm

Ssar wrote:And to clarify since I hadn't explored the 'posts' option and can see what I posted before - I have had 3 years postgrad WE and a year during UG referred to as a placement year in the UK. It's technically an extended internship lasting a year to give undergrads a WE booster.


This doesn't help us much. WE and externships won't make much difference to your cycle. What counts are your LSAT and your GPA. If you're an underrepresented minority, that too would be important to know.

If you have a GPA then your LSAT and GPA combination will be strongly determinative as to your cycle. You can use mylsn.info to figure out what you can expect. If you don't have a GPA, then expect your LSAT to be the strongest factor, so long as your degree is at least "above average". If your degree isn't "superior" you may have trouble at the very top schools. If you will not have work authorization in the US than that could be a hindrance (schools have to report the number of graduates in employment, therefore anyone that might struggle to be employed post-graduation could be viewed as a liability).

tl;dr; we need actual numbers, not practice tests or speculation, in offer to help.

Ssar

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Re: 3.35 gpa/179 LSAT/4yrsW/E - CLS,NYU,UPEN

Postby Ssar » Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:57 pm

Albanach - not sure why my first response to you wasn’t approved but I’ve rewritten it..

There is a standard conversion for UK GPA's - either a numerical form or an average, above average, superior ranking. My conversion to the numerical value is based on all the online sources I have seen for systems which convert international grades, e.g. fullbright. My intention was to provide the target audience (I assume the majority on here went to school in the States) with a conversion they could work with since some aren't familiar with the international grading system - I'll assume you are.

My transcript has not been evaluated by the credential assembly service but I know someone who got pretty much identical grades to me that applied for a JD/MBA and was told that unless there are extremities in your class grading differences, it's easy to predict that a 2:1 equals an above average, a 1st equals a superior.

I'm not sure I'd be posting here if I didn't have authorization - I'm a GC holder and have been married to my partner (who is American) for a year now and 3 of my 4 years of experience are for a U.S. HF.

Admittedly, my LSAT score is hypothetical. I last posted a couple of weeks ago but my diagnostic score was at the end of August and I've since been studying for the test pretty much full time since the end of Aug. I've averaged a score of 175 in my last 3 timed tests and believe that a score of at least 178 is feasible. Again, I'm aware that the test can screw you over on the date but there is no reason to believe that my mark isn't feasible, especially with a couple more months of FT study.

nixy

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Re: 3.35 gpa/179 LSAT/4yrsW/E - CLS,NYU,UPEN

Postby nixy » Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:26 pm

Your gpa will be graded as superior etc, rather than translated to a number, which for the purposes of applications means that it doesn’t really count (unless it’s low enough to hurt you). International GPAs don’t get reported to USNWR for rankings purposes, so carry less weight. The good thing is that this means your LSAT will carry even more weight; the bad thing is that you don’t have one yet. You may indeed score consistent with your practice tests, but there are people every administration who score 10+ points lower than they were in practice tests, and none of them thought that would happen. So no one can really chance you until you have a score.

Ssar

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Re: 3.35 gpa/179 LSAT/4yrsW/E - CLS,NYU,UPEN

Postby Ssar » Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:44 pm

nixy wrote:Your gpa will be graded as superior etc, rather than translated to a number, which for the purposes of applications means that it doesn’t really count (unless it’s low enough to hurt you). International GPAs don’t get reported to USNWR for rankings purposes, so carry less weight. The good thing is that this means your LSAT will carry even more weight; the bad thing is that you don’t have one yet. You may indeed score consistent with your practice tests, but there are people every administration who score 10+ points lower than they were in practice tests, and none of them thought that would happen. So no one can really chance you until you have a score.


Thanks a bunch anyway. There’s a chance I’ll get a lower than anticipated score but I’m one of the weird ones who enjoys studying for it as much of my work involves logic-based problem solving and analysis. I guess my next query will be in a few months when I’ve got my results. Thanks again.

oscar50595

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Re: 3.35 gpa/179 LSAT/4yrsW/E - CLS,NYU,UPEN

Postby oscar50595 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:44 am

albanach wrote:
Ssar wrote:And to clarify since I hadn't explored the 'posts' option and can see what I posted before - I have had 3 years postgrad WE and a year during UG referred to as a placement year in the UK. It's technically an extended internship lasting a year to give undergrads a WE booster.


This doesn't help us much. WE and externships won't make much difference to your cycle. What counts are your LSAT and your GPA. If you're an underrepresented minority, that too would be important to know.

If you have a GPA then your LSAT and GPA combination will be strongly determinative as to your cycle. You can use mylsn.info to figure out what you can expect. If you don't have a GPA, then expect your LSAT to be the strongest factor, so long as your degree is at least "above average". If your degree isn't "superior" you may have trouble at the very top schools. If you will not have work authorization in the US than that could be a hindrance (schools have to report the number of graduates in employment, therefore anyone that might struggle to be employed post-graduation could be viewed as a liability).

tl;dr; we need actual numbers, not practice tests or speculation, in offer to help.


Jumping in here as I'm an international applicant without work authorization. Is this a considerable factor when evaluating applications? While I would like to work in the US, a JD from a "good" school is definitely still useful in the U.K. for jobs in policy etc. Is there a way I can anticipate and negate the work authorization obstacle? Any help is greatly appreciated.

Ssar

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Re: 3.35 gpa/179 LSAT/4yrsW/E - CLS,NYU,UPEN

Postby Ssar » Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:32 am

oscar50595 wrote:
albanach wrote:
Ssar wrote:And to clarify since I hadn't explored the 'posts' option and can see what I posted before - I have had 3 years postgrad WE and a year during UG referred to as a placement year in the UK. It's technically an extended internship lasting a year to give undergrads a WE booster.


This doesn't help us much. WE and externships won't make much difference to your cycle. What counts are your LSAT and your GPA. If you're an underrepresented minority, that too would be important to know.

If you have a GPA then your LSAT and GPA combination will be strongly determinative as to your cycle. You can use mylsn.info to figure out what you can expect. If you don't have a GPA, then expect your LSAT to be the strongest factor, so long as your degree is at least "above average". If your degree isn't "superior" you may have trouble at the very top schools. If you will not have work authorization in the US than that could be a hindrance (schools have to report the number of graduates in employment, therefore anyone that might struggle to be employed post-graduation could be viewed as a liability).

tl;dr; we need actual numbers, not practice tests or speculation, in offer to help.


Jumping in here as I'm an international applicant without work authorization. Is this a considerable factor when evaluating applications? While I would like to work in the US, a JD from a "good" school is definitely still useful in the U.K. for jobs in policy etc. Is there a way I can anticipate and negate the work authorization obstacle? Any help is greatly appreciated.


I can’t advise on the evaluation process but can tell you how likely you are to get a job dependent on a few things. What is your end goal? Do you want to work in government and policy making? Corporate? Do you want to move to the US permanently/LT or are you only after some experience here?

oscar50595

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Re: 3.35 gpa/179 LSAT/4yrsW/E - CLS,NYU,UPEN

Postby oscar50595 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:14 am

Ssar wrote:
oscar50595 wrote:
albanach wrote:
Ssar wrote:And to clarify since I hadn't explored the 'posts' option and can see what I posted before - I have had 3 years postgrad WE and a year during UG referred to as a placement year in the UK. It's technically an extended internship lasting a year to give undergrads a WE booster.


This doesn't help us much. WE and externships won't make much difference to your cycle. What counts are your LSAT and your GPA. If you're an underrepresented minority, that too would be important to know.

If you have a GPA then your LSAT and GPA combination will be strongly determinative as to your cycle. You can use mylsn.info to figure out what you can expect. If you don't have a GPA, then expect your LSAT to be the strongest factor, so long as your degree is at least "above average". If your degree isn't "superior" you may have trouble at the very top schools. If you will not have work authorization in the US than that could be a hindrance (schools have to report the number of graduates in employment, therefore anyone that might struggle to be employed post-graduation could be viewed as a liability).

tl;dr; we need actual numbers, not practice tests or speculation, in offer to help.


Jumping in here as I'm an international applicant without work authorization. Is this a considerable factor when evaluating applications? While I would like to work in the US, a JD from a "good" school is definitely still useful in the U.K. for jobs in policy etc. Is there a way I can anticipate and negate the work authorization obstacle? Any help is greatly appreciated.


I can’t advise on the evaluation process but can tell you how likely you are to get a job dependent on a few things. What is your end goal? Do you want to work in government and policy making? Corporate? Do you want to move to the US permanently/LT or are you only after some experience here?


Thank you - my end goal is public interest or immigration law, and I do want to move to the US permanently. I certainly wouldn't mind a stint in corporate law for financial reasons but my end goal is definitely not corporate.

Ssar

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Re: 3.35 gpa/179 LSAT/4yrsW/E - CLS,NYU,UPEN

Postby Ssar » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:55 pm

oscar50595 wrote:
Ssar wrote:
oscar50595 wrote:
albanach wrote:
Ssar wrote:And to clarify since I hadn't explored the 'posts' option and can see what I posted before - I have had 3 years postgrad WE and a year during UG referred to as a placement year in the UK. It's technically an extended internship lasting a year to give undergrads a WE booster.


This doesn't help us much. WE and externships won't make much difference to your cycle. What counts are your LSAT and your GPA. If you're an underrepresented minority, that too would be important to know.

If you have a GPA then your LSAT and GPA combination will be strongly determinative as to your cycle. You can use mylsn.info to figure out what you can expect. If you don't have a GPA, then expect your LSAT to be the strongest factor, so long as your degree is at least "above average". If your degree isn't "superior" you may have trouble at the very top schools. If you will not have work authorization in the US than that could be a hindrance (schools have to report the number of graduates in employment, therefore anyone that might struggle to be employed post-graduation could be viewed as a liability).

tl;dr; we need actual numbers, not practice tests or speculation, in offer to help.


Jumping in here as I'm an international applicant without work authorization. Is this a considerable factor when evaluating applications? While I would like to work in the US, a JD from a "good" school is definitely still useful in the U.K. for jobs in policy etc. Is there a way I can anticipate and negate the work authorization obstacle? Any help is greatly appreciated.


I can’t advise on the evaluation process but can tell you how likely you are to get a job dependent on a few things. What is your end goal? Do you want to work in government and policy making? Corporate? Do you want to move to the US permanently/LT or are you only after some experience here?


Thank you - my end goal is public interest or immigration law, and I do want to move to the US permanently. I certainly wouldn't mind a stint in corporate law for financial reasons but my end goal is definitely not corporate.


I can tell you that without strong industry connection(s) and as a non-specialist, it’s almost impossible. Under the current administration, work visa (most commonly the H-1B) approvals have decreased in the past two years and are reserved for those who are specialists (mostly in tech/directors etc.). Firms don’t want to take on the risk of paying to sponsor a foreign employee when they have the same American talent for free. I first came to the US on a J1 visa in 2015 (still pretty easy to get - work full time (1yr) and study for a masters or postgrad cert) and had gotten to the last stages of negotiating two trainee counsel jobs in NY. Even though I said I’d pay for my own PT law degree, neither firm was willing to take the risk in the end and from my understanding, the situation has worsened for foreign applicants since then.
I’d say your best bet is to get a paralegal/clerk internship or something similar (on a J1/F1 visa) for a year to figure out if the US is truly where you’d like to end up and if you’re dead set on it, get a law degree from the UK and see if you can get a transfer to the US with a large global corporate firm after a secondment (L1 visa). As I understand, that’s how most foreign corporate solicitors come to practice in the US and it’s much easier to get a visa that way. I’m not sure of the degree you studied or are studying for but bare in mind that only the LLB qualifies you to sit for the bar exam (not the GDL). Only a handful of states accept LLBs - I believe NY and CA are two of them. Your chances of being accepted for a job as a non-citizen or greencard holder are slim to none. I would really advise you to reconsider considering a JD at all if you don’t think you’ll qualify for a T14 school.
All of this doesn’t stop top law schools from accepting foreign applicants. Lots of US law firm jobs in the UK and other countries actually pay bank loads to people who have graduated with JDs who want to practice back home.
By the way this is only knowledge I have of the financial industry and corporate firms - wouldn’t have a clue on immigration and public interest but my guess is they’re less flexible than the corporate world.

oscar50595

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Re: 3.35 gpa/179 LSAT/4yrsW/E - CLS,NYU,UPEN

Postby oscar50595 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:34 am

Ssar wrote:
oscar50595 wrote:
Ssar wrote:
oscar50595 wrote:
albanach wrote:
Ssar wrote:And to clarify since I hadn't explored the 'posts' option and can see what I posted before - I have had 3 years postgrad WE and a year during UG referred to as a placement year in the UK. It's technically an extended internship lasting a year to give undergrads a WE booster.


This doesn't help us much. WE and externships won't make much difference to your cycle. What counts are your LSAT and your GPA. If you're an underrepresented minority, that too would be important to know.

If you have a GPA then your LSAT and GPA combination will be strongly determinative as to your cycle. You can use mylsn.info to figure out what you can expect. If you don't have a GPA, then expect your LSAT to be the strongest factor, so long as your degree is at least "above average". If your degree isn't "superior" you may have trouble at the very top schools. If you will not have work authorization in the US than that could be a hindrance (schools have to report the number of graduates in employment, therefore anyone that might struggle to be employed post-graduation could be viewed as a liability).

tl;dr; we need actual numbers, not practice tests or speculation, in offer to help.


Jumping in here as I'm an international applicant without work authorization. Is this a considerable factor when evaluating applications? While I would like to work in the US, a JD from a "good" school is definitely still useful in the U.K. for jobs in policy etc. Is there a way I can anticipate and negate the work authorization obstacle? Any help is greatly appreciated.


I can’t advise on the evaluation process but can tell you how likely you are to get a job dependent on a few things. What is your end goal? Do you want to work in government and policy making? Corporate? Do you want to move to the US permanently/LT or are you only after some experience here?


Thank you - my end goal is public interest or immigration law, and I do want to move to the US permanently. I certainly wouldn't mind a stint in corporate law for financial reasons but my end goal is definitely not corporate.


I can tell you that without strong industry connection(s) and as a non-specialist, it’s almost impossible. Under the current administration, work visa (most commonly the H-1B) approvals have decreased in the past two years and are reserved for those who are specialists (mostly in tech/directors etc.). Firms don’t want to take on the risk of paying to sponsor a foreign employee when they have the same American talent for free. I first came to the US on a J1 visa in 2015 (still pretty easy to get - work full time (1yr) and study for a masters or postgrad cert) and had gotten to the last stages of negotiating two trainee counsel jobs in NY. Even though I said I’d pay for my own PT law degree, neither firm was willing to take the risk in the end and from my understanding, the situation has worsened for foreign applicants since then.
I’d say your best bet is to get a paralegal/clerk internship or something similar (on a J1/F1 visa) for a year to figure out if the US is truly where you’d like to end up and if you’re dead set on it, get a law degree from the UK and see if you can get a transfer to the US with a large global corporate firm after a secondment (L1 visa). As I understand, that’s how most foreign corporate solicitors come to practice in the US and it’s much easier to get a visa that way. I’m not sure of the degree you studied or are studying for but bare in mind that only the LLB qualifies you to sit for the bar exam (not the GDL). Only a handful of states accept LLBs - I believe NY and CA are two of them. Your chances of being accepted for a job as a non-citizen or greencard holder are slim to none. I would really advise you to reconsider considering a JD at all if you don’t think you’ll qualify for a T14 school.
All of this doesn’t stop top law schools from accepting foreign applicants. Lots of US law firm jobs in the UK and other countries actually pay bank loads to people who have graduated with JDs who want to practice back home.
By the way this is only knowledge I have of the financial industry and corporate firms - wouldn’t have a clue on immigration and public interest but my guess is they’re less flexible than the corporate world.


Thanks for all the info - while thats certainly discouraging, I think that I'll still definitely be applying. I'm not studying an LLB at the moment, but I am also putting in for schools in the U.K., specifically those who have an LLB/JD program for talented students. I can appreciate why firms are reluctant to hire internationals, especially given the huge pool of qualified graduates to choose from. I guess I'll see what comes up after applications are in and go from there.

I definitely wont be attending in the US unless its T14 haha.

albanach

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Re: 3.35 gpa/179 LSAT/4yrsW/E - CLS,NYU,UPEN

Postby albanach » Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:12 pm

oscar50595 wrote:
I definitely wont be attending in the US unless its T14 haha.


Some schools are much more likely to accept a nonresident:

Code: Select all

School      Class size   Nonresident   %age NR
Cornell      199      32         16.1
Harvard      560      80         14.3
Nowestern    228      24         10.5
Columbia     389      39         10.0
NYU          429      42         9.8
Yale         205      20         9.8
GTown        602      58         9.6
Duke         217      20         9.2
Penn         244      21         8.6
Michigan     320      13         4.1
Berkeley     305      11         3.6
Stanford     180      4         2.2

Code: Select all

Chicago      189      3         1.6
UVA          319      1         0.3


Of the 4,386 places available in the T-14, 368 went to nonresident aliens.

At Cornell, 12 of the 32 had US undergraduate GPAs, at Harvard 47, and at Northwestern 6. It might be worth filling out that table with Non-US UGPAs but I don't have time right now.



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