LSDAS GPA: 2.2 LSAT 162 Forum

[tigerbait123]

I started out as a bio major at LSU and failed miserably. I was working 40 hours a week and didn't care or have the time to study. I decided to switch my major after falling in love with poli sci, but it was too little too late. I really want to go to the University of Florida for law school, but it's standards are pretty high. Do I have a chance?

[4LTsPointingNorth]

With that GPA hamstringing you, you're objectively better off pursuing a career in something other than law. You could job search for something law-adjacent like compliance, or else take the GMAT after a year or two of work experience and then enter business school.

Trying to go to UF or any similar law school with your numbers will end up costing you a lot more in tuition than the degree will be worth.

[princetonlawgrad]

Please don't listen to anything 4LTsPointingNorth says.

[BrainsyK]

4LTsPointingNorth is right.

[nixy]

Please don't listen to anything 4LTsPointingNorth says.

Why not?

OP, people with terrible GPAs (no offense) do get into good law schools, but they need stellar LSATs to do so, and they frequently get very little scholarship. But acceptances are also going to be very unpredictable. How long ago did you graduate? And can you work on getting your LSAT up? Finally, what kind of job do you want in law? (I ask the latter because it affects what kind of school you should aim for and how much you should be willing to pay.)

[4LTsPointingNorth]

Please don't listen to anything 4LTsPointingNorth says.

I'm flattered to get a shout-out in one of your three posts to this website.

[princetonlawgrad]

Please don't listen to anything 4LTsPointingNorth says.

I'm flattered to get a shout-out in one of your three posts to this website.

TIL number of comments have relevancy on accuracy. Are you sure you should be a lawyer or law student?

[princetonlawgrad]

Please don't listen to anything 4LTsPointingNorth says.

Why not?

OP, people with terrible GPAs (no offense) do get into good law schools, but they need stellar LSATs to do so, and they frequently get very little scholarship. But acceptances are also going to be very unpredictable. How long ago did you graduate? And can you work on getting your LSAT up? Finally, what kind of job do you want in law? (I ask the latter because it affects what kind of school you should aim for and how much you should be willing to pay.)

Whether a person should go to law school is case specific. OP even already has a LSAT score that can get him into many good schools. There are a number of factors to consider besides your GPA and LSAT that people like 4LTsPointingNorth are just too lazy to consider. For example if your goal in life is to be a lawyer NOTHING should stop you. For some people, spending 20 years to pay off loans or struggling to find a job for some time after LS might still be better than working some crap jobs for the next 50 years. People like that guy, love to point to stats, in fact most of them that's all they can point to, without considering the actual motivation of each applicant.

Do you know the statistic of "% of grads who obtain a job as attorney" is measured only 9 months after graduation? For some people it takes that long just to pass the bar. There are dozens of reasons why someone might no be a licensed, hired attorney 9 months after graduation. Does this mean they'll NEVER become a practicing attorney? Of course not.

Let me just give you one example. A place in the DOJ Honors program is probably the most prestigious and difficult to obtain positions in public service. Thousands and thousands apply. Below is a link to a list of all the schools the 2017 accepted students attended. Included on that list are over TWO DOZEN schools that are low and even UNRANKED including COOLEY (lol), Cal Western, Golden Gate, UDC, etc.

According to 4LTsPointingNorth and others, this is impossible!

As you said, what job you are looking for is a huge factor. Working for a small firm, becoming a PD, or even a local DA does not take going to a Tier 1 or Tier 2 school. Frankly, anyone that believes this is so out of touch with reality THEY shouldn't be a lawyer. Many mid, low, even unranked schools have extensive local connections. All it takes is one summer internship to develop a relationship and get hired.

Attending a lower rank school can in some cases be beneficial. Being at the top of your class can look better than being an average or below average student at a higher ranked school.

It of course, can also be a HUGE risk. But that is up to each person to decide. If you are smart, you look at the potential consequences, good and bad, and make an informed decision. But blanket statements, not mention, terribly uniformed, such as that guys are simply misguided and borderline idiotic.

https://www.justice.gov/legal-careers/law-schools

[4LTsPointingNorth]

Please don't listen to anything 4LTsPointingNorth says.

I'm flattered to get a shout-out in one of your three posts to this website.

TIL number of comments have relevancy on accuracy. Are you sure you should be a lawyer or law student?

Your fifth comment (the one directly above my comment here) is a good post. I don't agree with any of it, but it at least commits you to positions that will lead to further discussion from other posters on this site.

Your original comment was just a weirdly personal attack with no other context provided that would have been helpful to the OP of this thread.

But I get it... when you don't like content that contradicts what you wish to be true, it's much easier and more satisfying to just attack the offending poster than it is to engage with their uncomfortable ideas.

[BrainsyK]

But blanket statements, not [to] mention, terribly uni[n]formed, such as that guy[']s are simply misguided and borderline idiotic.

Please don't listen to anything 4LTsPointingNorth says.

[princetonlawgrad]

But blanket statements, not [to] mention, terribly uni[n]formed, such as that guy[']s are simply misguided and borderline idiotic.

Please don't listen to anything 4LTsPointingNorth says.

Ahh yikes. I guess that invalidates my position. You two sure know how to focus on the important points.

[nixy]

Please don't listen to anything 4LTsPointingNorth says.

Why not?

OP, people with terrible GPAs (no offense) do get into good law schools, but they need stellar LSATs to do so, and they frequently get very little scholarship. But acceptances are also going to be very unpredictable. How long ago did you graduate? And can you work on getting your LSAT up? Finally, what kind of job do you want in law? (I ask the latter because it affects what kind of school you should aim for and how much you should be willing to pay.)

Whether a person should go to law school is case specific. OP even already has a LSAT score that can get him into many good schools. There are a number of factors to consider besides your GPA and LSAT that people like 4LTsPointingNorth are just too lazy to consider. For example if your goal in life is to be a lawyer NOTHING should stop you. For some people, spending 20 years to pay off loans or struggling to find a job for some time after LS might still be better than working some crap jobs for the next 50 years. People like that guy, love to point to stats, in fact most of them that's all they can point to, without considering the actual motivation of each applicant.

Stats are pretty important. Everyone thinks they will be the exception, but that's just not mathematically possible. Motive isn't always enough. Saying to ignore the stats just because you want something isn't really any better than saying someone with the OP's GPA will never be a lawyer.

Do you know the statistic of "% of grads who obtain a job as attorney" is measured only 9 months after graduation? For some people it takes that long just to pass the bar. There are dozens of reasons why someone might no be a licensed, hired attorney 9 months after graduation. Does this mean they'll NEVER become a practicing attorney? Of course not.

Let me just give you one example. A place in the DOJ Honors program is probably the most prestigious and difficult to obtain positions in public service. Thousands and thousands apply. Below is a link to a list of all the schools the 2017 accepted students attended. Included on that list are over TWO DOZEN schools that are low and even UNRANKED including COOLEY (lol), Cal Western, Golden Gate, UDC, etc.

According to 4LTsPointingNorth and others, this is impossible!

I don't think anyone said it was impossible. It's not a good chance statistically, though. Especially since that list includes people who were hired into the Summer Law Intern Program, which is great, but not a guarantee of an Honors position, at all - it doesn't break down who's getting permanent jobs and who's getting internships.

(Also if it takes someone 9 months to pass the bar and they don't already have a job, it's definitely going to make it harder to get one. Again, not impossible, but harder.)

As you said, what job you are looking for is a huge factor. Working for a small firm, becoming a PD, or even a local DA does not take going to a Tier 1 or Tier 2 school. Frankly, anyone that believes this is so out of touch with reality THEY shouldn't be a lawyer. Many mid, low, even unranked schools have extensive local connections. All it takes is one summer internship to develop a relationship and get hired.

I agree that people can get jobs out of mid/low/unranked schools through local connections, but it's also undeniable that many don't.

Attending a lower rank school can in some cases be beneficial. Being at the top of your class can look better than being an average or below average student at a higher ranked school.

But you absolutely can't guarantee being at the top of your class, even if you go to a lower rank school. That's why it's an even greater risk than you acknowledge. Being median at a school that places 95% of students in jobs is arguably better than being top 20-30% at a school with only ~50% of students getting jobs.

I don't actually agree with all of what 4LTsPointingNorth said, but I think your take is equally unnuanced and unhelpful.

[4LTsPointingNorth]

I really want to go to the University of Florida for law school, but it's standards are pretty high. Do I have a chance?

OP, in the interest of responding only to your original question without raising any of my other concerns: http://florida.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats/1718

From that link, it looks like, out of applicants with a 162 LSAT, the lowest admitted GPA was a 2.8 over the past two years.

After doing some googling, it looks like UF has a 161 LSAT median and a 163 LSAT 75th percentile. If becoming a UF-trained lawyer is a personal goal of yours that you want to pursue despite the costs (e.g., because your family is willing and able to pay for it so you won't need any scholarship money), then it looks like retaking the LSAT and scoring 3+ points higher is your best chance at being admitted to UF.

The graph I linked to above shows that an applicant with a 165 and a 2.35 GPA was admitted in the past two cycles.

It's worth noting that Lawschoolnumbers isn't a perfect predictor because its sample size isn't huge, but it is a fairly reliable guidepost in roughly estimating your chances.

[tigerbait123]

Please don't listen to anything 4LTsPointingNorth says.

Why not?

OP, people with terrible GPAs (no offense) do get into good law schools, but they need stellar LSATs to do so, and they frequently get very little scholarship. But acceptances are also going to be very unpredictable. How long ago did you graduate? And can you work on getting your LSAT up? Finally, what kind of job do you want in law? (I ask the latter because it affects what kind of school you should aim for and how much you should be willing to pay.)

I graduated in 2017, and I work for a very well known plaintiffs' firm on an international case and a big mdl. I working very diligently on getting my lsat up, but I know this is what I want to do.

[tigerbait123]

Please don't listen to anything 4LTsPointingNorth says.

Why not?

OP, people with terrible GPAs (no offense) do get into good law schools, but they need stellar LSATs to do so, and they frequently get very little scholarship. But acceptances are also going to be very unpredictable. How long ago did you graduate? And can you work on getting your LSAT up? Finally, what kind of job do you want in law? (I ask the latter because it affects what kind of school you should aim for and how much you should be willing to pay.)

I graduated in 2017, and I work for a very well known plaintiffs' firm on an international case and a big mdl. I working very diligently on getting my lsat up, but I know this is what I want to do.