LSAC GPA: 3.77 LSAT: 159

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170ismydreamscore
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LSAC GPA: 3.77 LSAT: 159

Postby 170ismydreamscore » Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:47 am

This is my very first post, and I really need help with choosing schools.
I've studied for the LSAT more than a year and a half independently (no tutor, no friends to discuss with) starting with reading the PowerScore trilogy, and I can't seem to hit the 160s on the actual LSAT even though I got scores in the 160s on timed PTs at home. During the time I was studying for the LSAT, I thought I could get at least a 165 on the real LSAT, but it never happened. I guess I'm really not smart enough to hit the 160s. I'm also not a fast reader/processor of words. I hate the RC section the most, and even though the LR sections don't seem bad, I get more questions wrong combined. Timing is hard, and so is keeping my concentration throughout the whole test. Recently, I've purchased an online prep course, but I think I still have to put in a lot of personal efforts to get a better score; Simply watching the lectures and taking notes won't do. But I'm not sure if I can improve at all at this point.

Since I've not had any job during this period, I think it's best to apply to many law schools and go to one I can get accepted into, without spending another year with no real guarantee of getting a better score.
I know my score is really low to work in big law or even to go to law school, but I want to go to law school because I want to study the law and have my interest in big law.
So, I want to go to law school in the Northeast, particularly New York and Massachusetts.
In New York: Fordham, Touro, Cardozo, St. John's, Syracuse, Brooklyn
In Massachusetts: Boston College
Any suggestions/recommendations about whether to go or not? I rarely hear about Touro, St. John's, or Syracuse though.

But, because my LSAT score is too low to get any scholarship in some of the highly ranked schools, I'm also thinking of going to a low-ranked law school that could offer me the full tuition scholarship. For example, between Fordham and Brooklyn

I've seen many posts where people tell others to retake the test, but I just don't have confidence in myself anymore to wait one more year.
Thank you for reading!
Last edited by 170ismydreamscore on Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

YHSCCN2020
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Re: LSAC GPA: 3.77 LSAT: 159

Postby YHSCCN2020 » Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:14 am

where did you go for undergrad? (i.g., West coast, East coast, Midwest, South , etc) and the prestige of your undergrad? (i.g., ivy league, v20, v50, big law, etc)

Since you are targetting non t-14 schools and still aiming for big law, knowing the location of your undergraduate seems very helpful to establish a regional-tie, which can be fortified by the location of your future attending law schools.

Anyways, to answer your questions:

For NYC big law, Fordham seems like the best option ouside of CLS and NYU.

Fordham's 75th LSAT/GPA is 165/3.67. Although your GPA is strong, you should still aim at least 164+
You are above Brooklyn's both LSAT/GPA 75th percentile. So, you are a very strong candidate for the school.

170ismydreamscore
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Re: LSAC GPA: 3.77 LSAT: 159

Postby 170ismydreamscore » Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:26 am

Thank you for your reply!
I went to undergrad on the West Coast. It's not a known school. That's why I didn't mention it, since my undergrad's name won't help me much.
Yes, I'm targeting non-T-14 schools but still aiming for big law.
I wouldn't mind going to a school in the Midwest or even South for a possible full-tuition scholarship, but the main reason I'm not thinking of applying to schools in those regions is I want to work in big law.

I could apply to schools like George Washington, William and Mary, Indiana, Iowa, and etc., but I don't know if going to such schools will help me get into big law.
Say I get accepted into Fordham with no scholarship and Brooklyn with a full tuition scholarship, should I go to Brooklyn? I don't think going to Fordham with no scholarship for a better chance of big law is a good decision.
I really wish I were smarter.
Last edited by 170ismydreamscore on Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:38 am, edited 2 times in total.

YHSCCN2020
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Re: LSAC GPA: 3.77 LSAT: 159

Postby YHSCCN2020 » Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:37 am

In order to get a full scholarship, it is genereal consensus that you should aim for above 75th LSAT / GPA.

And NYC is definitely the best market to consider because it is by far the largest market for Big law.

After that, Chicago hits the second.

You can sort of see where you can get accepted by playing around at MyLSN.info.

I am also including a helpful thread you might be interested:
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=186892

170ismydreamscore
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Re: LSAC GPA: 3.77 LSAT: 159

Postby 170ismydreamscore » Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:49 am

Thank you very much for your advice!

I will definitely read the thread you put a link for.

Thank you!!
Last edited by 170ismydreamscore on Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

cavalier1138
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Re: LSAC GPA: 3.77 LSAT: 159

Postby cavalier1138 » Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:50 am

Change your goals or change your score.

You seem well aware that your chances at biglaw are slim-to-none at your target schools, and you only want biglaw. So either change your career goals to something that makes sense for your target range of schools, or change your LSAT score so that you're in a position to go to a school that lets you meet your current career goals.

Alternatively, just get a job (which you should do anyway) and don't go to law school right now. Law school isn't going anywhere, and better to put it off or not go at all than to spend six figures on a useless degree.

170ismydreamscore
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Re: LSAC GPA: 3.77 LSAT: 159

Postby 170ismydreamscore » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:01 am

Thank you for your reply!
I actually didn't know that I could do corporate legal work not just in big law. So, I'm open to mid law? small law? as long as it's corporate legal work.

I originally planned to actually work in a different field after finishing undergrad. But, somehow I couldn't get the job I'd wanted.
I worked 6 months at a small, private company and quit. It was a non-law-related job.
So that's when I switched to start studying for the LSAT, because law school was my other alternative.
Your reply definitely gets me thinking...
But finding a job isn't easy either right now, unless it's part-time. I'll keep thinking!

Thank you!!

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sweets91
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Re: LSAC GPA: 3.77 LSAT: 159

Postby sweets91 » Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:21 am

170ismydreamscore wrote:Thank you for your reply!
I actually didn't know that I could do corporate legal work not just in big law. So, I'm open to mid law? small law? as long as it's corporate legal work.

I originally planned to actually work in a different field after finishing undergrad. But, somehow I couldn't get the job I'd wanted.
I worked 6 months at a small, private company and quit. It was a non-law-related job.
So that's when I switched to start studying for the LSAT, because law school was my other alternative.
Your reply definitely gets me thinking...
But finding a job isn't easy either right now, unless it's part-time. I'll keep thinking!

Thank you!!


I agree with the above poster, and add that you need to do a lot more research on what career opportunities are available with a law degree, because I don't think you understand what biglaw even means at this point.
Not trying to be mean, but really, you should do your homework before dedicating your entire future to this field

edit: Also, if self-tutoring isn't getting you anywhere, get a study buddy or find a course that works for you.

albanach
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Re: LSAC GPA: 3.77 LSAT: 159

Postby albanach » Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:57 am

So, you've studied for over a year without meaningful improvement and without a job.

Now your plan is to go to a very expensive school for three years which will likely either result in no job, or a job that didn't pay enough to repay the tuition.

Please take a moment to see what kind of schools you're likely to be accepted to. Then study law school transparency to understand how much this will cost in real terms together with the likelihood of getting a decent job out of it.

Finally, decide if you like the risk or want to change either your study methodology or career plans.

Sorry to be blunt.

dredd16
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Re: LSAC GPA: 3.77 LSAT: 159

Postby dredd16 » Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:45 pm

Take another cycle off and study for the LSAT.

I don't know how many full PTs you have gone through, but you should be doing every single PT that was ever released at least 3-4 times by the end of all of this.

Don't know why you got shit wrong? Head over to https://www.manhattanprep.com/lsat/forums/ and look at people's explanations of the answers. You should be taking a deep dive into the right AND wrong answers.

T-14 or bust. Best of luck.

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Barack O'Drama
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Re: LSAC GPA: 3.77 LSAT: 159

Postby Barack O'Drama » Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:58 pm

You have a GPA that could easily get you into a T14 school with the right LSAT. It's going to be a lot (read: exponentially) more difficult to secure a BL position from the schools you are likely to be accepted to with your stats as they are now.

Put all that energy and time into a very learnable test instead. If you have big law goals don't attend anywhere outside of the top schools.

As far as improving on the LSAT, I recommend using Manhattan LSAT trilogy + The LSAT Trainer and using 7Sage primarily to learn games.
With these and plenty of PTs you should be able to increase your score.

Good luck

PhilNoir
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Re: LSAC GPA: 3.77 LSAT: 159

Postby PhilNoir » Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:02 pm

I second (third? fourth?...) the comments here. I actually don't think a year and a half of study is unheard of (especially, if something else is going on in your life). Given what you've said, I would get a part time job--or two--, take two months off from studying, and then get 7sage to consistently study for the test. Give yourself one more cycle to improve to at least 165 (which is entirely doable given your current score). This is especially important if you want a realistic shot at doing biglaw. It would be terrible to dedicate 3 years of your life, not to mention tons of money, and have difficulties pursuing the career path you envisioned at the outset. I understand feeling put out, but it would be far worse if that came to fruition. Cheers and good luck!

170ismydreamscore
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Re: LSAC GPA: 3.77 LSAT: 159

Postby 170ismydreamscore » Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:48 am

Thank you sweets91, albanach, dredd16, Barack O'Drama, and PhilNoir for your advice!!

I'm hesitating between applying this year to law schools that would offer me the full-tuition scholarship for my current stats and studying hard there, and giving the LSAT one more shot and go to law school in 2019.
I'm gonna keep thinking about this. So anybody is welcome to say anything about any of what I write below.

It's been more than a year and a half since I first started prepping for the LSAT by just picking up and reading the PowerScore trilogy books.
After reading the trilogy, I read one other LSAT book about the LR section, and then I started working on the actual LSAT problems on PTs.
PT 1-20 (Individual Section Drilling separately, Untimed 1 time; +Only LG, Timed 1 time)
PT 21-30 (LG Section only, Untimed 1 time)
PT 31-40 (Full PTs by Each Section, Tried taking it timed but went over the time limit)
PT 41-81 (Full PTs, Timed but went over the time limit for a couple problems on some sections) Some PTs I did twice, but not from 41 to 81 twice.

When I started working on actual problems my first year, I had really difficulty with understanding each question type.
So I almost took the summer off because I was so frustrated, and I took a lot of breaks in my first year.
Truth is, I am slowly understanding better in terms of why one is the right answer and the others are wrong, or why one is better than all the others.
But, I still have difficulty spotting the real issue/argument quickly. On some LR questions, it would take me over a minute to even understand.
Some LR questions are hard for me to see clearly what's going on, particularly on Flaw questions. I know something's weird, but it takes me time to really see what the main flaw is.
It's the unusual, not-so-frequently-or-never-tested-before Flaw questions that trip me up. Maybe it's because it's something that I haven't seen before but isn't so clear to understand.

I've been looking at the explanations for at least all the questions I got wrong, but somehow I still get questions wrong.
Do people who get a good score really do PTs 3-4 times?
I'm just not sure how I should try differently and whehter I could improve from a 159, the actual result of over a year and a half of very relaxed studying.
I've made notes throughout my prep time, and I believe I'm pretty familiar with basic logic concepts.
But having to read fast and choose the right answer without even making a stupid mistake is quite difficult.
I'm hesitating between going to law school next year and going to law school in 2019 so much because I don't know what different strategy would work for me, and I don't know if I am capable of improving on the LSAT.
Is is worth waiting one more cycle to get as low as a 162, 163? or I must do everything to get at least a 165 to make it a good decision?

Should I go back to some LR drilling before working on PTs? or do Both?
Thank you for taking the time to read this and for your advice!!
Last edited by 170ismydreamscore on Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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chargers21
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Re: LSAC GPA: 3.77 LSAT: 159

Postby chargers21 » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:38 am

I don't know what to tell you if you truly studied as much as you said, but I do know that you should not go to any law school you currently can get into if you want to go into big law. I wish you the best, but you either need a higher lsat score or different career goals

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Barack O'Drama
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Re: LSAC GPA: 3.77 LSAT: 159

Postby Barack O'Drama » Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:32 am

170ismydreamscore wrote:Thank you sweets91, albanach, dredd16, Barack O'Drama, and PhilNoir for your advice!!

I'm hesitating between applying this year to law schools that would offer me the full-tuition scholarship for my current stats and studying hard there, and giving the LSAT one more shot and go to law school in 2019.
I'm gonna keep thinking about this. So anybody is welcome to say anything about any of what I write below.

It's been more than a year and a half since I first started prepping for the LSAT by just picking up and reading the PowerScore trilogy books.
After reading the trilogy, I read one other LSAT book about the LR section, and then I started working on the actual LSAT problems on PTs.
PT 1-20 (Individual Section Drilling separately, Untimed 1 time; +Only LG, Timed 1 time)
PT 21-30 (LG Section only, Untimed 1 time)
PT 31-40 (Full PTs by Each Section, Tried taking it timed but went over the time limit)
PT 41-81 (Full PTs, Timed but went over the time limit for a couple problems on some sections) Some PTs I did twice, but not from 41 to 81 twice.

When I started working on actual problems my first year, I had really difficulty with understanding each question type.
So I almost took the summer off because I was so frustrated, and I took a lot of breaks in my first year.
Truth is, I am slowly understanding better in terms of why one is the right answer and the others are wrong, or why one is better than all the others.
But, I still have difficulty spotting the real issue/argument quickly. On some LR questions, it would take me over a minute to even understand.
Some LR questions are hard for me to see clearly what's going on, particularly on Flaw questions. I know something's weird, but it takes me time to really see what the main flaw is.
It's the unusual, not-so-frequently-or-never-tested-before Flaw questions that trip me up. Maybe it's because it's something that I haven't seen before but isn't so clear to understand.

I've been looking at the explanations for at least all the questions I got wrong, but somehow I still get questions wrong.
Do people who get a good score really do PTs 3-4 times?
I'm just not sure how I should try differently and whehter I could improve from a 159, the actual result of over a year and a half of very relaxed studying.
I've made notes throughout my prep time, and I believe I'm pretty familiar with basic logic concepts.
But having to read fast and choose the right answer without even making a stupid mistake is quite difficult.
I'm hesitating between going to law school next year and going to law school in 2019 so much because I don't know what different strategy would work for me, and I don't know if I am capable of improving on the LSAT.
Is is worth waiting one more cycle to get as low as a 162, 163? or I must do everything to get at least a 165 to make it a good decision?

Should I go back to some LR drilling before working on PTs? or do Both?
Thank you for taking the time to read this and for your advice!!


Go back to studying. Apply next cycle.

Any school you get into now -- free ride or not -- is not a good fit for you if your end goal is big law. Again, it's going to be much easier to study and get a 165 than going to the schools you'll likely get into ane "studying hard" which virtually everyone else will be doing.

The powerscore bibles are great, but it seems like you've reached a point of diminishing returns with them. I'd pick up a 7sage course and the Manhattan strategy guide trilogy. Read through them and take a break from PT'ing. Sometimes getting a different perspective on things can be a big help. You may even want to hire a tutor for a couple sessions to you can get an objective evaluation of what may be holding you back. It's really hard to give general LSAT advice over the internet. I think if you're stuck in the low 160s you still have a lot of room to learn and master the fundamentals.

Use the 7Sage Fool proof method to get games down: https://7sage.com/how-to-get-a-perfect- ... gic-games/

Don't give up. If it takes you another year it will be worth it when you're at a T14 with good money on your way to the career you want.

170ismydreamscore
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Re: LSAC GPA: 3.77 LSAT: 159

Postby 170ismydreamscore » Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:28 pm

Thank you chargers21 for your advice!

And to Barack O’Drama, thank you very much! I really appreciate suggestions and the advice you have provided!

I hope I’m not making a mistake by taking the December test. I’ve already paid and it’s already past the refund due date to cancel it.

Thank you everyone for your reply!

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crumb cake
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Re: LSAC GPA: 3.77 LSAT: 159

Postby crumb cake » Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:25 pm

Sit out this cycle and retake the LSAT until you get a 170+.

170ismydreamscore
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Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:03 am

Re: LSAC GPA: 3.77 LSAT: 159

Postby 170ismydreamscore » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:14 am

Thank you crumb cake for the advice!!

I think I’m gonna take the December test since I can’t get any refund now.

During my enitre prep period, I only read the PowerScore trilogy books once in the very beginning and moved on to the problems.
And I’d like to read some other company’s books for reinforcing the fundamentals, before working on PTs.

Thank you!




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