Stanford ASW 2012 Forum

[slsorhls]

No law student I know has ever complained that law school classes were too practical and relevant to real-life practice. LOL at even the thought. I'm actually skeptical that Stanford's curriculum is all that practical, but if it is, that would be a huge plus, not a negative.

I don't want to kill myself learning about how lawyer A should have argued an 1843 property case. I'd rather think/talk about and discuss the larger issues involved in property law in general--theory behind it, comparison to other legal systems, etc. For instance, I find it very interesting to consider hypotheticals at the margins and really nail down the doctrine we're talking about--and to consider how the doctrine/law could have been different or is in fact applied differently. That sort of education is valuable in itself and can provide a great foundation for more practical learning on the job.

I think that's essentially what goes down at Yale and to a lesser extent at Harvard as well.

Perhaps other Stanford students are like you and don't want to engage in discussions like that. They'd rather simply understand how if they were lawyer A in the 1843 case, they should take approach X. That's something I'm trying to figure out.

BTW, I'm not saying I want a normative discussion--do you think A should apply or B--and then a bunch of policy argument garbage (which I actually heard happens in a lot of classes at SLS, unfortunately).

And please, don't reference my post history. I am really, really strongly considering SLS right now, and I just want to get a better understanding of how the courses are there (especially compared to HLS).

[lightbulb1986]

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[Geneva]

No law student I know has ever complained that law school classes were too practical and relevant to real-life practice. LOL at even the thought. I'm actually skeptical that Stanford's curriculum is all that practical, but if it is, that would be a huge plus, not a negative.

Thank you. And if this "mock class" was Fisher's hearsay speech, just know he jokes about it being the only topic in evidence he can neatly package into 45 minutes for people assumed to have no prior knowledge of the law.

slsorhls: i'm being brash. I came to law school to become a problem solver, the first year curriculum in my section at least was almost pure theory/policy. If you are expecting to read statutes and memorize them at sls, you won't. I'm a little unsure what distinction you are making b/w theory and policy argument garbage--i'm not sure the two are separable. A transfer student would be in a better position to compare schools.

i'm curious as to how stanford compares to yale in terms of its focus on ideas/theory for theory's sake. my impression is that most top schools (certainly t14) are pretty theoretical, but i wonder what (if anything) distinguishes yale from the rest of the pack in this respect. thanks:)

[slsorhls]

No law student I know has ever complained that law school classes were too practical and relevant to real-life practice. LOL at even the thought. I'm actually skeptical that Stanford's curriculum is all that practical, but if it is, that would be a huge plus, not a negative.

Thank you. And if this "mock class" was Fisher's hearsay speech, just know he jokes about it being the only topic in evidence he can neatly package into 45 minutes for people assumed to have no prior knowledge of the law.

slsorhls: i'm being brash. I came to law school to become a problem solver, the first year curriculum in my section at least was almost pure theory/policy. If you are expecting to read statutes and memorize them at sls, you won't. I'm a little unsure what distinction you are making b/w theory and policy argument garbage--i'm not sure the two are separable. A transfer student would be in a better position to compare schools.

SLS students did tell me that classes often devolved into policy debates, but that's different from what I'm talking about. There's a big distinction between the two. You can easily have a policy-focused class/discussion that doesn't touch on theory whatsoever. That's probably what happens at a lot of third tier law schools. People can just mouth off about various policies like pundits on TV.

By theory I just mean engaging in the larger issues like I pointed out above. I think those issues are much more interesting than how lawyer A should argue a case. You can of course do that without getting into any policy discussion. You can talk about larger issues and ponder A vs. B without engaging in the normative, here's why A is better than B. Of course, if this is what goes down at SLS (theory with normative stuff) that isn't so bad to me--unless the arguments put forward are horrible. You can speak more to us about the caliber of your fellow students, I guess.

[lightbulb1986]

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[slsorhls]

No law student I know has ever complained that law school classes were too practical and relevant to real-life practice. LOL at even the thought. I'm actually skeptical that Stanford's curriculum is all that practical, but if it is, that would be a huge plus, not a negative.

Thank you. And if this "mock class" was Fisher's hearsay speech, just know he jokes about it being the only topic in evidence he can neatly package into 45 minutes for people assumed to have no prior knowledge of the law.

slsorhls: i'm being brash. I came to law school to become a problem solver, the first year curriculum in my section at least was almost pure theory/policy. If you are expecting to read statutes and memorize them at sls, you won't. I'm a little unsure what distinction you are making b/w theory and policy argument garbage--i'm not sure the two are separable. A transfer student would be in a better position to compare schools.

i'm curious as to how stanford compares to yale in terms of its focus on ideas/theory for theory's sake. my impression is that most top schools (certainly t14) are pretty theoretical, but i wonder what (if anything) distinguishes yale from the rest of the pack in this respect. thanks:)

i wouldn't know; i've never attended a class at yale. i'm cynical, too-- i have a hunch all law schools teach the same old crap. difference with sls or yls is you're going to get a lot of theory from a bunch of scotus clerk profs who wrote the textbook and probably aren't too interested in anything but theory anyway. if you want to push hypotheticals at the margins in class, do so at your own risk because then you'll just be that person that comes up with the outlandish, impossible hypotheticals that waste everybody's time. professors are good about office hours and will speak with you offline after class. there are plenty of opportunities to take comparative law and international law courses if you want to do that. if you want to go into strategy then fed lit, lrw and other courses like trial advocacy and oral argument workshop will take care of that.

I'm still not sure what you mean by larger issues slsorhls, it just seems to me that in every course you take you'll be thinking and discussing what happened, whether its right, and why. we use theory, as i think you define it, to make our own normative conclusions. help me out here... also realize that, especially in the first year, probably anywhere you go, the professor will be guiding you along a train of thought, hiding the ball, and a lot of the input from new students will only be a distraction leading to implausible hypos, intransigent political rants, or other gunnerish behavior based on the tome of knowledge one learns in undergrad. with that said, we have some incredibly smart people that ask really good questions and make really smart comments frequently.

That was a really good answer. It does seem to be up my alley, then. Are you saying there is a lot of input from new students that derails things, or is that kept to somewhat of a minimum?

Also, do you find in general you are able to take courses that interest you? I didn't hear enough "real talk" from current SLS students. No one seemed willing to complain about anything/everyone was really happy--other than one guy who really, really lamented the less name recognition that comes with the degree.

[lightbulb1986]

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[slsorhls]

well in general i'm dissatisfied with law school. it's a means to an end, really, so I'd've had to have sucked it up anywhere. look at the courses on the course list. for the most part, you won't get any of the lottery courses your 1l/2l year unless you show up on the first day hoping to fill in for someone who missed the mandatory first day. 3ls get priority. i haven't had a problem getting into a consent course and any course without either designation is open. a lot of people take language courses and other stuff outside the law school and you can do a dual masters degree fairly easily. i mean, sls is badass and the people are great but its still law school and all that implies.

I guess you go against the stereotype that SLS students are happy? Are there a decent amount of others who feel the same way as you? I understand when you say that SLS is great and law school in general is bad, but how can you really say that if you've only attended SLS? How could you say that your experience at another school would be just as bad or worse?

I assume you don't regret going to law school? I would be pretty unhappy to be in your shoes having accumulated a huge amount of debt. I assume you're still excited about your career at least...

[lightbulb1986]

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[slsorhls]

well in general i'm dissatisfied with law school. it's a means to an end, really, so I'd've had to have sucked it up anywhere. look at the courses on the course list. for the most part, you won't get any of the lottery courses your 1l/2l year unless you show up on the first day hoping to fill in for someone who missed the mandatory first day. 3ls get priority. i haven't had a problem getting into a consent course and any course without either designation is open. a lot of people take language courses and other stuff outside the law school and you can do a dual masters degree fairly easily. i mean, sls is badass and the people are great but its still law school and all that implies.

I guess you go against the stereotype that SLS students are happy? Are there a decent amount of others who feel the same way as you? I understand when you say that SLS is great and law school in general is bad, but how can you really say that if you've only attended SLS? How could you say that your experience at another school would be just as bad or worse?

I assume you don't regret going to law school? I would be pretty unhappy to be in your shoes having accumulated a huge amount of debt. I assume you're still excited about your career at least...

don't get me wrong. i'm happy with the prospect of being a practicing attorney. i'm happy with the people i know and the things i'm doing, but i don't think law school is supposed to be a comforting or comfortable experience. i don't regret my choice because i'm at a school that makes economic sense. that said, i find the material boring most of the time. my favorite courses have typically focused on professional skills or were taught by practitioners, so we are probably on different ends of the spectrum.

the stereotype of the happy sls student is well founded. that doesn't mean we are not stressed. i can't speak for you, but i'm pretty sure you will be stressed, too. you will feel insecure, intimidated, and you will question whether you made the right choice. the honeymoon phase will end and there will be no turning back. granted, i have no frame of reference except for friends at lower ranked law schools, where the competition for jobs is so fierce and the gunning off the charts. if you have to put up with that crap to become a lawyer, you might as well do it in probably the only place in america where you are guaranteed market pay and are perpetually showered with warm sun and cool breeze and there are no GPAs and students share their outlines and notes openly. I chose sls because it gave me the best chance at gainful employment, and i'm happy that i don't have to compete with anyone here for the same job. ymmv. the people here are intense, driven and impressive. thankfully none are so insecure as to make ostentatious displays of their intellect or productivity. the stereotype of the congenial sls student is well founded. i'm serious.

I believe you. I just find it a little disconcerting that so many SLS students say law school is horrible when at Harvard, for instance, believe it or not, there are a bunch of people who say they love the whole experience.

All the SLS people say "of all the schools, SLS is the least horrible." But they weren't transfer students. So it makes me think, maybe SLS isn't so great after all. Or maybe it attracts students who are hoping for a more enjoyable experience, and then are somewhat left down--whereas Harvard students might expect more of the rigor/difficulties/harshness of it.

[lightbulb1986]

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[BioEBear2010]

I believe you. I just find it a little disconcerting that so many SLS students say law school is horrible when at Harvard, for instance, believe it or not, there are a bunch of people who say they love the whole experience.

[. . .]

All the SLS people say "of all the schools, SLS is the least horrible."

You have been talking to some strange people, amigo. Almost everyone I know here is loving SLS. And the ones who aren't seem more put off by legal schoolwork than they do a career in law or SLS/the SLS community.

[CCN-S Transfer]

well in general i'm dissatisfied with law school. it's a means to an end, really, so I'd've had to have sucked it up anywhere. look at the courses on the course list. for the most part, you won't get any of the lottery courses your 1l/2l year unless you show up on the first day hoping to fill in for someone who missed the mandatory first day. 3ls get priority. i haven't had a problem getting into a consent course and any course without either designation is open. a lot of people take language courses and other stuff outside the law school and you can do a dual masters degree fairly easily. i mean, sls is badass and the people are great but its still law school and all that implies.

I guess you go against the stereotype that SLS students are happy? Are there a decent amount of others who feel the same way as you? I understand when you say that SLS is great and law school in general is bad, but how can you really say that if you've only attended SLS? How could you say that your experience at another school would be just as bad or worse?

I assume you don't regret going to law school? I would be pretty unhappy to be in your shoes having accumulated a huge amount of debt. I assume you're still excited about your career at least...

don't get me wrong. i'm happy with the prospect of being a practicing attorney. i'm happy with the people i know and the things i'm doing, but i don't think law school is supposed to be a comforting or comfortable experience. i don't regret my choice because i'm at a school that makes economic sense. that said, i find the material boring most of the time. my favorite courses have typically focused on professional skills or were taught by practitioners, so we are probably on different ends of the spectrum.

the stereotype of the happy sls student is well founded. that doesn't mean we are not stressed. i can't speak for you, but i'm pretty sure you will be stressed, too. you will feel insecure, intimidated, and you will question whether you made the right choice. the honeymoon phase will end and there will be no turning back. granted, i have no frame of reference except for friends at lower ranked law schools, where the competition for jobs is so fierce and the gunning off the charts. if you have to put up with that crap to become a lawyer, you might as well do it in probably the only place in america where you are guaranteed market pay and are perpetually showered with warm sun and cool breeze and there are no GPAs and students share their outlines and notes openly. I chose sls because it gave me the best chance at gainful employment, and i'm happy that i don't have to compete with anyone here for the same job. ymmv. the people here are intense, driven and impressive. thankfully none are so insecure as to make ostentatious displays of their intellect or productivity. the stereotype of the congenial sls student is well founded. i'm serious.

I believe you. I just find it a little disconcerting that so many SLS students say law school is horrible when at Harvard, for instance, believe it or not, there are a bunch of people who say they love the whole experience.

All the SLS people say "of all the schools, SLS is the least horrible." But they weren't transfer students. So it makes me think, maybe SLS isn't so great after all. Or maybe it attracts students who are hoping for a more enjoyable experience, and then are somewhat left down--whereas Harvard students might expect more of the rigor/difficulties/harshness of it.

Well I am a transfer student. And SLS is the best, as well as the least horrible, of all law schools.

[defrutamadre]

I believe you. I just find it a little disconcerting that so many SLS students say law school is horrible when at Harvard, for instance, believe it or not, there are a bunch of people who say they love the whole experience.

All the SLS people say "of all the schools, SLS is the least horrible." But they weren't transfer students. So it makes me think, maybe SLS isn't so great after all. Or maybe it attracts students who are hoping for a more enjoyable experience, and then are somewhat left down--whereas Harvard students might expect more of the rigor/difficulties/harshness of it.

your claims of what "so many SLS students" and "all the SLS people" say are based on what...microscopic soundbites of a few students?

[takehold]

well in general i'm dissatisfied with law school. it's a means to an end, really, so I'd've had to have sucked it up anywhere. look at the courses on the course list. for the most part, you won't get any of the lottery courses your 1l/2l year unless you show up on the first day hoping to fill in for someone who missed the mandatory first day. 3ls get priority. i haven't had a problem getting into a consent course and any course without either designation is open. a lot of people take language courses and other stuff outside the law school and you can do a dual masters degree fairly easily. i mean, sls is badass and the people are great but its still law school and all that implies.

I guess you go against the stereotype that SLS students are happy? Are there a decent amount of others who feel the same way as you? I understand when you say that SLS is great and law school in general is bad, but how can you really say that if you've only attended SLS? How could you say that your experience at another school would be just as bad or worse?

I assume you don't regret going to law school? I would be pretty unhappy to be in your shoes having accumulated a huge amount of debt. I assume you're still excited about your career at least...

don't get me wrong. i'm happy with the prospect of being a practicing attorney. i'm happy with the people i know and the things i'm doing, but i don't think law school is supposed to be a comforting or comfortable experience. i don't regret my choice because i'm at a school that makes economic sense. that said, i find the material boring most of the time. my favorite courses have typically focused on professional skills or were taught by practitioners, so we are probably on different ends of the spectrum.

the stereotype of the happy sls student is well founded. that doesn't mean we are not stressed. i can't speak for you, but i'm pretty sure you will be stressed, too. you will feel insecure, intimidated, and you will question whether you made the right choice. the honeymoon phase will end and there will be no turning back. granted, i have no frame of reference except for friends at lower ranked law schools, where the competition for jobs is so fierce and the gunning off the charts. if you have to put up with that crap to become a lawyer, you might as well do it in probably the only place in america where you are guaranteed market pay and are perpetually showered with warm sun and cool breeze and there are no GPAs and students share their outlines and notes openly. I chose sls because it gave me the best chance at gainful employment, and i'm happy that i don't have to compete with anyone here for the same job. ymmv. the people here are intense, driven and impressive. thankfully none are so insecure as to make ostentatious displays of their intellect or productivity. the stereotype of the congenial sls student is well founded. i'm serious.

I believe you. I just find it a little disconcerting that so many SLS students say law school is horrible when at Harvard, for instance, believe it or not, there are a bunch of people who say they love the whole experience.

All the SLS people say "of all the schools, SLS is the least horrible." But they weren't transfer students. So it makes me think, maybe SLS isn't so great after all. Or maybe it attracts students who are hoping for a more enjoyable experience, and then are somewhat left down--whereas Harvard students might expect more of the rigor/difficulties/harshness of it.

I found the 100% exact opposite. I must have talked to 20+ Stanford students and all of them absolutely loved SLS, and I mean they seemed to enjoy the law school experience more than any other law student I have talked to at any other school (including Harvard). I talked to roughly the same amount of students at Harvard and I would say at least 5 of them were obviously covering up the fact that they didn't like their time there, but that they were fine with it because they would get the HLS name on their resume.

Also I have no idea what you are talking about with regards to the ability to interact with current students, faculty, etc. during ASW. I mean, SLS had: 1) small group discussions with students, 2) dinners with students, 3) dessert receptions (10 students per faculty) at faculty homes, 4) breakout activities with current students (I had a group of 4 admits and a current student), and 5) numerous tours led by students (I had a campus tour with like 8 admits and 4 current students) in the span of two days. Harvard's ASW was impressive and all, but I felt like it was much more of a chore to interact with current students, and most that I interacted with didn't seem so interested in talking/hanging out with admits.

I know I told you this like a month ago, but you should just mail in your deposit to HLS without a second thought if your posts here are at all representative of what you're thinking. It seems like Harvard would really suit what you're looking for, and that's great.

[slsorhls]

I found the 100% exact opposite. I must have talked to 20+ Stanford students and all of them absolutely loved SLS, and I mean they seemed to enjoy the law school experience more than any other law student I have talked to at any other school (including Harvard). I talked to roughly the same amount of students at Harvard and I would say at least 5 of them were obviously covering up the fact that they didn't like their time there, but that they were fine with it because they would get the HLS name on their resume.

Also I have no idea what you are talking about with regards to the ability to interact with current students, faculty, etc. during ASW. I mean, SLS had: 1) small group discussions with students, 2) dinners with students, 3) dessert receptions (10 students per faculty) at faculty homes, 4) breakout activities with current students (I had a group of 4 admits and a current student), and 5) numerous tours led by students (I had a campus tour with like 8 admits and 4 current students) in the span of two days. Harvard's ASW was impressive and all, but I felt like it was much more of a chore to interact with current students, and most that I interacted with didn't seem so interested in talking/hanging out with admits.

I know I told you this like a month ago, but you should just mail in your deposit to HLS without a second thought if your posts here are at all representative of what you're thinking. It seems like Harvard would really suit what you're looking for, and that's great.

I didn't say there was a problem with that at SLS. Someone earlier suggested there was a problem with that at HLS. Anyway, I am leaning Stanford at this point. Can you elaborate on why you're into SLS/what the students said more specifically?

For the other people who posted: what do you like/dislike about Stanford? Is the connection to Silicon Valley something tangible/means real opportunities?

[soj]

At first you said:

I didn't hear enough "real talk" from current SLS students. No one seemed willing to complain about anything/everyone was really happy--other than one guy who really, really lamented the less name recognition that comes with the degree.

You thought everyone was happy and had few complaints, yet just a few posts later, you say Stanford students were only lukewarm:

I believe you. I just find it a little disconcerting that so many SLS students say law school is horrible when at Harvard, for instance, believe it or not, there are a bunch of people who say they love the whole experience.

All the SLS people say "of all the schools, SLS is the least horrible." But they weren't transfer students. So it makes me think, maybe SLS isn't so great after all. Or maybe it attracts students who are hoping for a more enjoyable experience, and then are somewhat left down--whereas Harvard students might expect more of the rigor/difficulties/harshness of it.

Bro, just go to Harvard or Yale (loljk). If you want to hear from people who didn't like Stanford, just ask around and you'll be more likely to find them among people who turned it down.

Do let us know when you've written The Truth about Stanford: Exposing the Myth of Better Financial Aid, Happier Students, and the Rarity Argument. See you at Fenwick!

[slsorhls]

At first you said:

I didn't hear enough "real talk" from current SLS students. No one seemed willing to complain about anything/everyone was really happy--other than one guy who really, really lamented the less name recognition that comes with the degree.

You thought everyone was happy and had few complaints, yet just a few posts later, you say Stanford students were only lukewarm:

I believe you. I just find it a little disconcerting that so many SLS students say law school is horrible when at Harvard, for instance, believe it or not, there are a bunch of people who say they love the whole experience.

All the SLS people say "of all the schools, SLS is the least horrible." But they weren't transfer students. So it makes me think, maybe SLS isn't so great after all. Or maybe it attracts students who are hoping for a more enjoyable experience, and then are somewhat left down--whereas Harvard students might expect more of the rigor/difficulties/harshness of it.

There's no inconsistency there. People were really happy/unwilling to complain about STANFORD. They were more than ready to complain/unhappy about LAW SCHOOL. At least, that's the division they made, which I found interesting. Your attack on me is not relevant--not sure why you did that. Yes, I've explored various issues between the top schools over the last few months. I am seriously hoping to learn more here--didn't come here to get attacked.

[soj]

At first you said:

I didn't hear enough "real talk" from current SLS students. No one seemed willing to complain about anything/everyone was really happy--other than one guy who really, really lamented the less name recognition that comes with the degree.

You thought everyone was happy and had few complaints, yet just a few posts later, you say Stanford students were only lukewarm:

I believe you. I just find it a little disconcerting that so many SLS students say law school is horrible when at Harvard, for instance, believe it or not, there are a bunch of people who say they love the whole experience.

All the SLS people say "of all the schools, SLS is the least horrible." But they weren't transfer students. So it makes me think, maybe SLS isn't so great after all. Or maybe it attracts students who are hoping for a more enjoyable experience, and then are somewhat left down--whereas Harvard students might expect more of the rigor/difficulties/harshness of it.

There's no inconsistency there. People were really happy/unwilling to complain about STANFORD. They were more than ready to complain/unhappy about LAW SCHOOL. At least, that's the division they made, which I found interesting.

I didn't hear enough "real talk" from current SLS students. No one seemed willing to complain about anything/everyone was really happy

Everyone wants to know about the pros and cons of Stanford, but not everyone goes around making hasty generalizations that aren't even consistent with each other. Given your post history, forgive me for thinking (and hoping) you're not being genuine about seriously considering Stanford.

[abacus]

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[abl]

I love both SLS and law school, and would add more years if doing so didn't screw over my debt/career. I am definitely not alone among my friends in feeling this way (although most people are eager to start their practice of the law).

[Blessedassurance]

Conflicts of ideas and perceptions can be productive...even necessary. It is entirely okay to have conflicting opinions. The infatuation with crucifying people who dare to proffer dissent, is counter-productive. All the personal shit is unnecessary. Disagree with the man/woman's ideas and conclusions. We can't all possibly agree on the same thing and many factors that influence one's decision apropos of competing, law school options, can be very subjective. Can we all get along? It's just law school, man, not utopia. All things considered, even when you win, you lose.

[Geneva]

For people with May 1 deposit deadlines: Does the seat deposit need to be POSTMARKED by May 1, or does it need to be received by then? Silly question, I know, but someone I met at ASW asked me and I'm at work and my folder is at home...Thanks!

[yankees42789]

Pretty sure it has to be postmarked by May 1, not received.

[Twit]

For people with May 1 deposit deadlines: Does the seat deposit need to be POSTMARKED by May 1, or does it need to be received by then? Silly question, I know, but someone I met at ASW asked me and I'm at work and my folder is at home...Thanks!

It's postmarked. I checked last week.