Northwestern Law School Dean Daniel B. Rodriguez and his claim of Diversity Forum

[Bulla]

why would applicants with 155 and below lsat scores be applying to NU/the T14 anyway though?

A different generation, economy has changed, and recent data shows the median LSAT for applicants who apply to Law schools. As for why. You have to ask this generation because they do apply in mass to T14 law schools.

http://taxprof.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341 ... 970c-800wi

Also the way T14 law schools targets these applicants via emails, LSAC forums, and held events under the banner of diversity.

wait listing applicants doesn't increase the schools rankings. someone already said this, but they don't get more people to apply by having some big wait list (which there is not evidence ITT that they actually waitlist more people than other schools). I don't think Rodriguez is some super noble figure, but he also seems to have a problem with the exact same thing you do and would like to do something about it. i don't get the point of this.

If 500 applicants applied to NU. NU has to sent offers based on only 500 applicants pool. This would be different then having 4,000 applicants. This is how they show that their application pool is competitive and it helps with boosting the Rank. This is how they can show that they only accept 25% of applicants.

im not following what you're saying. 4000 applicants apply because its a good school. what does the waitlist have to do with that? why would more people apply cuz of their chances of getting wait listed?

i agree that schools broadcast that they are diverse and wish to attract diverse applicants, and maybe that is more lip service than reality, but to equate that with them leading people with sub 160 lsat scores scores to think they have a good chance at getting in if they are diverse is not accurate from my understanding of their marketing.

You have their report and contentions

Harming Diversity, Skewing Admissions
Stifling Innovation
“Experimentation Benefits Us All”

https://www.americanbar.org/content/dam ... eckdam.pdf

[A. Nony Mouse]

why would applicants with 155 and below lsat scores be applying to NU/the T14 anyway though?

A different generation, economy has changed, and recent data shows the median LSAT for applicants who apply to Law schools. As for why. You have to ask this generation because they do apply in mass to T14 law schools.

http://taxprof.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341 ... 970c-800wi

Also the way T14 law schools targets these applicants via emails, LSAC forums, and held events under the banner of diversity.

Schools target applicants of all kinds. It's on the applicant to look at whether their application is going to be competitive. Why would someone apply to NU with a 155 when they can see the likelihood of getting in with that score? Why is it on NU if people do?

I still also don't get what impact the waitlist has. The problem (to the extent there is one) is soliticiting students to apply at all, not waitlisting people. So people have to wait longer to hear they're not getting in - how is that a crime? No one should count on getting off a waitlist until they get off a waitlist.

[yyyuppp]

You have their report and contentions

Harming Diversity, Skewing Admissions
Stifling Innovation
“Experimentation Benefits Us All”

https://www.americanbar.org/content/dam ... eckdam.pdf

This is a report about how using standardized tests at all is bad and doesn't serve its intended purpose. you are arguing that top schools trick people with low scores into applying to game their numbers and maintain their rankings. maybe they do, but nothing you've quoted at all supports that.

[Bulla]

You have their report and contentions

Harming Diversity, Skewing Admissions
Stifling Innovation
“Experimentation Benefits Us All”

https://www.americanbar.org/content/dam ... eckdam.pdf

This is a report about how using standardized tests at all is bad and doesn't serve its intended purpose. you are arguing that top schools trick people with low scores into applying to game their numbers and maintain their rankings. maybe they do, but nothing you've quoted at all supports that.

We could be an avid supporters of T14 law schools like NU but we should call out their practice. This topic serves future applicants so they can make a wise and better decision. Just take a look at NU current waitlist, it is ridiculous. Yale is in the same boat. These are your evidence + their letter to ABA.

I don't know how you can't see it? you just said "may be they do" you're basing this doubt on speculation or have you seen it by now ?

why would applicants with 155 and below lsat scores be applying to NU/the T14 anyway though?

A different generation, economy has changed, and recent data shows the median LSAT for applicants who apply to Law schools. As for why. You have to ask this generation because they do apply in mass to T14 law schools.

http://taxprof.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341 ... 970c-800wi

Also the way T14 law schools targets these applicants via emails, LSAC forums, and held events under the banner of diversity.

Schools target applicants of all kinds. It's on the applicant to look at whether their application is going to be competitive. Why would someone apply to NU with a 155 when they can see the likelihood of getting in with that score? Why is it on NU if people do?

I still also don't get what impact the waitlist has. The problem (to the extent there is one) is soliticiting students to apply at all, not waitlisting people. So people have to wait longer to hear they're not getting in - how is that a crime? No one should count on getting off a waitlist until they get off a waitlist.

Many do after persuasive tactics by their admissions office. Often diverse applicants are low-income students, racial and ethnic minorities. They're not one of the privileged students and when you throw hope at them, i bet you they will jump on it and grab it in a hope to better their lives. This is just how it is. Bottom tier law school does it and top tier law schools does it but for a different purpose/reason.

You want to help diversity, increase it, as well as lower your tuition.

[yyyuppp]

I don't know how you can't see it? you just said "may be they do" you're basing this doubt on speculation or have you seen it by now ?

I can't see it because you've posted an article claiming that standardized test requirements for law school admissions is bad for diversity and then quoted a dean saying that his school feels pressured to use these tests to maintain their rankings out of fear of damaging their schools reputation, a circumstance apparently wishes could change. you have also spoken a lot about how large waitlists of certain schools are (even though you don't have access to that information and no one else does besides people in the admissions offices, so neither I nor you can "take a look" at them) without explaining how that is relevant (cuz its not).

none of that supports what your saying about them baiting poor, diverse candidates into applying by giving them some false hope of admission.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I still also don't get what impact the waitlist has. The problem (to the extent there is one) is soliticiting students to apply at all, not waitlisting people. So people have to wait longer to hear they're not getting in - how is that a crime? No one should count on getting off a waitlist until they get off a waitlist.

Many do after persuasive tactics by their admissions office. Often diverse applicants are low-income students, racial and ethnic minorities. They're not one of the privileged students and when you throw hope at them, i bet you they will jump on it and grab it in a hope to better their lives. This is just how it is. Bottom tier law school does it and top tier law schools does it but for a different purpose/reason.

You want to help diversity, increase it, as well as lower your tuition.

Diversity in law school and whether waitlists are bad practice are two different things.

You still haven't pointed to any measurable harm done to someone by being put on a wailist and ultimately not getting in (nor any benefit to the law school itself for doing such a thing). What precise harm does that person suffer? They wait longer to find out that they're being rejected? So what? That is not an actual injury.

[Jclubb]

Saying they should limit their waitlist is also not necessarily a good thing. They don't know who may leave their entering class so they have to have people to replace any one of those that may leave. High lsats, high gpas, urms, different regions etc. They never know who may leave the class so that they have to search for someone to fill in the spot to maintain their class balance. Additionally, they have no way of knowing for sure who may attend if admitted off the waitlist. I was actually admitted from their waitlist and was doubtful I'd attend until their scholarship offer. I also know that people were admitted off the waitlist and then ended up not accepting the offer. They don't know who may leave and then who may accept their offer. Therefore, they, like nearly every law school, keep a large waitlist to account for all foreseeable circumstances.

I am grateful for the waitlist because I ended up getting in. However, I never had any false hope. I had made other plans and was happy with them. I also have not gotten off other waitlists (and ended up withdrawing from most of them). No waitlist I was on ever gave me any reason to believe I had a great chance of getting in. I, like hopefully all applicants to law school, understood that a waitlist means I should make other plans. Law school applicants are adults and should be able to do their research and understand their chances of getting into schools and then understand their chances of getting off a waitlist.

[stego]

This link indicates acceptance rate is part of the rankings but it's only 2.5% of the formula.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/http://w ... ethodology

The fact is, schools can't admit everybody. There are a lot of people who are capable of succeeding who can't get into the school they want (at all, or at the price they want). The school has to choose somehow. Right now, LSAT score is 12.5% of the formula (based on the link).

It doesn't matter to the rankings if they reject or waitlist the rest. But waitlisting people lets them fill their class if more people than expected choose to go elsewhere. They could admit more and waitlist less, but that risks over-enrolling the class (and does affect the acceptance rate).

[Bulla]

Guys, i am simply pointing out a bad practice. I know there are many NU fans here who will come to their support but the purpose of this topic is to call out an actual fact about diversity that we keep hearing a lot about it from T14 law schools yet what they advocate for is opposite of what they do.

We don't have to go in length about proving harm and damages. This is just to call out a bad practice by admission. After all we do learn ethics. Is it ethical for Deans to falsely market that they pay attention to diversity when in reality all they care about is their school's Rank.

The question here is, are we going to do something about the following:

1. The rise in law schools' tuition and whether it is justifiable with the current employment market.
2. Marketing the use of "diversity" and "minorities" we see it by top law schools and bottom tier law schools and both use it for different purposes.

I think the wait list topics and applicants screaming in these topics about when will they get a decision speaks volume of applicants' frustration with the process. We also shouldn't accept this as being the norm. We should say it is not ok to have a wait list for few month. As I've said wait list 10 - 20 is ok but hundreds is a bad practice + these schools claiming they pay attention to diversity should simply stop with marketing false hopes to increase the number of applicants.

You want to do something about it, take a stance and see how fast that will result in changing their admission practice. You will see the actual picture. Simply put, T14 law schools don't care about diversity, they care more about ranks. They can claim they pay attention to first generation students, minorities and all that and we've seen Dean Rodriguez claiming that he does in his live chat with applicants this year but in reality that wasn't true. the purpose was to increase application numbers to show there is competition because that is how they can determine the acceptance rate. Same goes to Yale who claim that they accept elitists. They say it over and over in their orientation days and commencement.

[TheSpanishMain]

So, I'm going to take a wild guess and say OP was rejected by Northwestern.

[Bulla]

Play a better game TheSpanishMain. This is about ABA and NU comment to ABA standards and diversity. Don't change the topic to divert from an actual discussion.

[cavalier1138]

So, I'm going to take a wild guess and say OP was rejected by Northwestern.

That could pretty much be the thread title.

OP: you aren't talking about any bad practices, nor are you talking about unique practices. I get that someone at Northwestern hurt you very, very badly, but you need to get over it.

[Bulla]

"If we can't keep up the discussion, lets resort to attacking the OP who we don't know anything about and we are just assuming." It is not usually the best practice to challenge an argument or change a discussion.

This topic was meant as a reference for future applicants.

[cavalier1138]

"If we can't keep up the discussion, lets resort to attacking the OP who we don't know anything about and we are just assuming." It is not usually the best practice to challenge an argument or change a discussion.

Your ridiculous "argument" has been challenged repeatedly, and you keep falling back on a non-starter of a point. The only possible reason you could have to target Northwestern is some ridiculous grudge, because the top schools are not part of the problem here. Northwestern (along with its peers) gets its graduates jobs. Waitlisting is a regular practice that has fuck-all to do with your vague central thesis about diversity.

You cite absolutely no statistics to show that Northwestern hasn't improved the diversity of its incoming class, instead relying on some petty bullshit about not admitting enough low numbers (which is not the same as diversity). You didn't get in to Northwestern. Get over it.

[Bulla]

Ok whatever you say.

[BruiseWillis]

What is happening in this thread

[cavalier1138]

What is happening in this thread

OP is confusing waitlisting with diversity admissions. Among other things.

[TheSpanishMain]

What is happening in this thread

OP felt entitled to admission at Northwestern by virtue of being non-white and is going to take down the system.

[cavalier1138]

What is happening in this thread

OP felt entitled to admission at Northwestern by virtue of being non-white and is going to take down the system.

To be fair, it's entirely possible that the OP is white, because they keep equating diversity with low LSAT scores.

[TheSpanishMain]

Bad look on my part.

[A. Nony Mouse]

What is happening in this thread

OP felt entitled to admission at Northwestern by virtue of being non-white and is going to take down the system.

To be fair, it's entirely possible that the OP is white, because they keep equating diversity with low LSAT scores.

My guess is Asian.

This is getting a little ishy.

[UVA2B]

So glad I didn't get roped into this. OP, your premise is faulty, your arguments are convoluted at best, and nothing you've said to this point shows a structural, actionable change that would have a positive impact on what matters most in law school: graduates of every manner of diversity getting jobs they want.

I'm sorry this incensed you so badly to start a grass roots movement to change law school admissions via a TLS thread. Good luck with that.

[A. Nony Mouse]

1) again, what measurable *legal* harm does it to do sit on a waitlist for a few months? No one has any right to hear back on any particular timeline.

2) the waitlist isn't a diversity thing. If you want to challenge whether schools are really interested in diversity, go for it (everyone will likely agree that schools are interested only to the extent that it doesn't hurt their yield or rankings). Bringing the waitlist into it just muddies the waters and makes your argument look personal rather than systemic.

3) diversity and rank aren't mutually exclusive. Schools can select for diverse applicants within the parameters of particular score/GPA bands.

There are obviously representation problems. Northwestern's last incoming class had 32% students of color, which is close to the representation in the US population (I think it's almost 37%). But blacks are 6.6% (compared to ~13%), Hispanics are 11% (compared to 17%), Native Americans are .5% (compared to 2%) and Asian Americans are 11% compared to 5.6%. (Then there are international students and students who didn't answer.)

HOWEVER, that in itself doesn't say much about schools' commitment to diversity without knowing 1) what those numbers have looked like over time, 2) what schools have actually done to improve those numbers, 3) how many non-white students are even taking the LSAT/applying to law school, and doubtless other things I'm overlooking.

I'm not going to claim that maintaining certain admissions standards has no effect on the makeup of a class (gatekeeping historically has had a racial/ethnic element), or that there are no improvements to be made. But I guess in terms of marketing - what is the alternative? If schools reach out to diverse students, they are apparently just using them for their yield - is the alternative *not* reaching out to diverse students? Given the correlation that exists between GPA/LSAT and law school grades, and given that law schools grade on a curve, shouldn't law schools reasonably worry about admitting students who fall below the general range of the class, in that doing so sets them up to be at the bottom of the class? (I don't know the stats on this at all but I've seen someone here insist that AA admissions disproportionately cluster in the bottom of their classes. I'm not convinced that's true or inevitable, but I think it's a legitimate concern for admissions people.)

Diverse admissions is certainly an issue, but I still don't get the OP's arguments about it.

[Bulla]

Now we are starting to guess my race. OP is white ? No she is Asian. This is adorable.

Obviously we don't have like minds but they will show up and understand this topic. Instead of attacking the argument and the validity of it, try to see what is being unethical here and point to it. Try having a discussion about it. Obviously some are coming to NU rescue because it does interest them.

This topic was about ABA and NU along with few T14 law schools comments about diversity, innovation (don't even know how innovation is fit there, it is a term better used for medical or business schools), and admission practices.

How many of you have attended Dean Rodriguez live chat ? "Meet with a dean" Everyone of you question that NU never done this for the past years, do you wonder why now ? Did you saw the type of questions that were asked, especially from students asking questions about diversity and first generation students ? He actually said he pays more attention to them or at his direction he directs faculty to even guide them throughout their 3 years of education which is just lip service marketing.

Whether it is personal opinion or a general one, you will know that most T14 of law schools don't care about diversity and rather their ranks. Can we at least approve this because we know it is the truth. I saw some say "may be" and some are sugar coating their indirect responses.

Are you against or for diversity ?

[cavalier1138]

I'm desperately confused now. What do you mean by "diversity"? Because it sounds like you have a different definition than most people...