Northwestern Law School Dean Daniel B. Rodriguez and his claim of Diversity Forum

[Bulla]

They want to screw your grades to prevent high transfer out rates.

If all law schools grade on a curve (im not sure they do but I believe at least most do) then how is this possible. Nobody in the lower tiered school without the outline bank would have an advantage in that school. Everyone has the same resources provided at their particular school as their classmates. Then grades are based on a curve. So then you end up with some people with a high gpa, some with a mediocre gpa, and some with a low gpa. I do not see how a lower tiered school could screw you out of your grades to prevent transfers. There will inevitably be people with high grades that are able to transfer if they wish simply due to the fact that there is a curve. The curve does not put people with outline banks against those without. If you get a low gpa at a school without an outline bank it's not due to the lack of an outline bank. It's due to the fact that the others in your class (also with no access to an outline bank) performed better than you.

Also while the lsat does not perfectly predict law school success, there is enough of a correlation to say that at least part of the reason too law schools have higher bar passage rates is because their students are on average better equipped for law school before entering and it cannot be entirely blamed on worse professors and lower ranked schools.

The lsat and gpa numbers are not perfect. But they're the best predictors they currently have and that's why they are used.

Also I am one of those admitted to a top school without living a life of luxury. I find it someone demeaning to say that a first generation student cannot score high enough to get into good schools. I am first gen and scored well on the lsat without taking a practice course while also having a job.

As for diversity, I think law schools do make an attempt to accept a diverse class. That's why urms can beat their numbers. Numbers don't drive everything during admissions however I will say they matter a lot. I do not see a problem with a school trying to build a diverse class of elite students. Meaning taking high scores from those that did well from a variety of backgrounds. Diversity of Lsat does not equal diversity.

Of course there are exceptions, some do make it to top tier law schools. But if you look at the overall diverse applicants, first generation students, student of color and minorities, many of them end up in the bottom tier law schools. For example that topic cited above where Prof. Paul Campos replied in it. Someone 25 years old, getting married and can't study for another year to score higher than 160 on the LSAT, he wants to start his career journey. There are many of those out there. By no means i don't think 160 is a bad LSAT score. I've also seen topics of 175 LSAT and 2.5 GPA and students who are depressed because of their 1L grades. While others who were lower than them in the LSAT had better gpa.

Would you know why a school like John Marshall Law School Chicago don't have 0 transfer out in 1L then suddenly 30 by 2L? I don't know but they must be doing something because if students think about transferring out, they do after completing 1L they don't need to wait until they finish 2L.

I think the solution to all this is to revamp the LSAT and design it tailored to actual law school materials and exam. Instead of having an exam that has nothing to do with law school other then the use of time pressure. What makes LSAT very challenging ? 1) you don't know the materials, it is not like studying tort, property and contracts 2) time pressure. But does it hit the nail on preparing students for law school? no. Yet it is being considered a prerequisite for admission to a JD program and that is where many things happen. We harm diversity and we have the bottom tier law schools who are predatory because we have an endless streamline of student loan borrowers.

I see you've just been admitted to NU, congratz! let us know how 1L feels after finishing it compare to LSAT. Work hard! Seek out great outlines, cut your study time to do more practice problems before final period. Most 1L pack some discover it sooner than later on how to beat the curve. Others take a while. Also let us know how diverse is class of 2020.

How is this different from past years. 20 years ago, law school was cheaper, it wasn't as diverse and only the privilege, most would get in. But things have changed. Law schools became greedy, they start raising tuition knowing that students have unlimited access to student loan from DOE.

[cavalier1138]

So now the solution is to revamp the LSAT to include substantive legal material? What happened to your brilliant idea of just having everyone take a fake year of law school classes?

And I know that you haven't bothered to answer this question the few dozen other times that people have raised it, but what the hell do any of your proposed "solutions" have to do with diversity? If the LSAT changed to the format you've described (to the extent that you've described anything specific), why do you think that would increase the diversity of the incoming law school class at any given school? If anything, I'd expect a more rigorous and substance-based testing process to be worse for disadvantaged students who won't have access to the more extensive classes, etc. needed for preparation.

[Bulla]

So now the solution is to revamp the LSAT to include substantive legal material? What happened to your brilliant idea of just having everyone take a fake year of law school classes?

And I know that you haven't bothered to answer this question the few dozen other times that people have raised it, but what the hell do any of your proposed "solutions" have to do with diversity? If the LSAT changed to the format you've described (to the extent that you've described anything specific), why do you think that would increase the diversity of the incoming law school class at any given school? If anything, I'd expect a more rigorous and substance-based testing process to be worse for disadvantaged students who won't have access to the more extensive classes, etc. needed for preparation.

If you're going to insult the French i won't be responding to you. You have a lot to learn in term of communication and holding yourself to the highest standards. May be an ethic course will teach you that in Law School.

To answer those who are curious about my race, i am white, french.

Well, there we have it, folks. Northwestern took out its institutional bias on America's regular punching-bags, the French! Has any minority group in history ever been treated as unfairly as ces miserables?

[cavalier1138]

So now the solution is to revamp the LSAT to include substantive legal material? What happened to your brilliant idea of just having everyone take a fake year of law school classes?

And I know that you haven't bothered to answer this question the few dozen other times that people have raised it, but what the hell do any of your proposed "solutions" have to do with diversity? If the LSAT changed to the format you've described (to the extent that you've described anything specific), why do you think that would increase the diversity of the incoming law school class at any given school? If anything, I'd expect a more rigorous and substance-based testing process to be worse for disadvantaged students who won't have access to the more extensive classes, etc. needed for preparation.

If you're going to insult the French i won't be responding to you. You have a lot to learn in term of commutation and holding yourself to the highest standards. May be an ethic course will teach you that in Law School.

To answer those who are curious about my race, i am white, french.

Well, there we have it, folks. Northwestern took out its institutional bias on America's regular punching-bags, the French! Has any minority group in history ever been treated as unfairly as ces miserables?

Actually, if you read closely (maybe this would have helped on the LSAT?), I didn't insult the French. I insulted you for having the gall to talk about yourself as though you're part of an oppressed minority in this country.

But on a separate note, why is it that students at lower-tier schools always feel the need to try and "sound like lawyers" before they've even graduated? I swear I only notice the trend of referencing law school classes like they're actually fucking useful and using terms like "judgment on the merits" unironicallly when it's a student at some T2-3 lashing out at the "elite".

[Bulla]

So now the solution is to revamp the LSAT to include substantive legal material? What happened to your brilliant idea of just having everyone take a fake year of law school classes?

And I know that you haven't bothered to answer this question the few dozen other times that people have raised it, but what the hell do any of your proposed "solutions" have to do with diversity? If the LSAT changed to the format you've described (to the extent that you've described anything specific), why do you think that would increase the diversity of the incoming law school class at any given school? If anything, I'd expect a more rigorous and substance-based testing process to be worse for disadvantaged students who won't have access to the more extensive classes, etc. needed for preparation.

If you're going to insult the French i won't be responding to you. You have a lot to learn in term of commutation and holding yourself to the highest standards. May be an ethic course will teach you that in Law School.

To answer those who are curious about my race, i am white, french.

Well, there we have it, folks. Northwestern took out its institutional bias on America's regular punching-bags, the French! Has any minority group in history ever been treated as unfairly as ces miserables?

Actually, if you read closely (maybe this would have helped on the LSAT?), I didn't insult the French. I insulted you for having the gall to talk about yourself as though you're part of an oppressed minority in this country.

But on a separate note, why is it that students at lower-tier schools always feel the need to try and "sound like lawyers" before they've even graduated? I swear I only notice the trend of referencing law school classes like they're actually fucking useful and using terms like "judgment on the merits" unironicallly when it's a student at some T2-3 lashing out at the "elite".

You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar

You're full of negativity with the way you approach conversations. You assume a lot unless you get a straight answer to troll with it. Good luck.

[cavalier1138]

Excellent work dodging the question (again). I can only assume that you've constructed equally ridiculous narratives of persecution regarding every other poster who's asked you the exact same thing during this thread.

I'm deeply sorry that you didn't get in to Northwestern. It's clear that the systemic bias against the French worked against you and nothing else. If only you'd been born white in a first-world country! How much easier things would have been for you! La vie est si cruelle!

[Bulla]

Excellent work dodging the question (again). I can only assume that you've constructed equally ridiculous narratives of persecution regarding every other poster who's asked you the exact same thing during this thread.

I'm deeply sorry that you didn't get in to Northwestern. It's clear that the systemic bias against the French worked against you and nothing else. If only you'd been born white in a first-world country! How much easier things would have been for you! La vie est si cruelle!

You're awesome, everything will be good. Don't worry.

As for me, i am preparing for the bar soon, i have the best bf ever who btw goes to NU. I have a job lined up for me after graduating. I couldn't ask for more. You don't need to know more about my life. This topic was about diversity, ABA and the law schools comments on it. It has nothing to do with what is going on in your head.

[A. Nony Mouse]

OP, you've focused on the lack of transfers out of John Marshall during 1L. You can't transfer as a 1L. You have to have a full year of law school credits before you can transfer. There isn't anything sinister at all about transfers increasing in 2L; that's the first time students CAN transfer. So you're making up sinister explanations that don't apply at all, which seems to describe your take on this whole topic.

[Bulla]

OP, you've focused on the lack of transfers out of John Marshall during 1L. You can't transfer as a 1L. You have to have a full year of law school credits before you can transfer. There isn't anything sinister at all about transfers increasing in 2L; that's the first time students CAN transfer. So you're making up sinister explanations that don't apply at all, which seems to describe your take on this whole topic.

Students transfer after finishing 1L. 509 report of many law school would show the transfer rate by 1L not 2L. Loyola Law School Chicago 24 transfer out by 1L. If you see 2L that means the students waited until they completed their 2L year or a semester in 2L presumably

Loyola 509 1L 24 transfer out.

http://www.luc.edu/media/lucedu/law/Std ... losure.pdf

Depaul 509 1L 7 transfer out.

https://law.depaul.edu/about/Documents/ ... report.pdf

We always try to characterize something we don't like. I don't know for whose benefit. Definitely not the students.

[Kali the Annihilator]

Just to review, for those in the cheap seats:

1. OP had a shit lsat
2. OP didnt get into NU
3. OP saw some people she thought were cocks at NU when she went to interview
4. OP is a french white person

This led op down the primrose to:
1. LSAT BAD
2. NU students live a life of luxury
3. NU needs more diversity (aka white women)

I hope your boyfriend walks away quickly because you are one narcissistic piece of shit.

[Bulla]

Just to review, for those in the cheap seats:

1. OP had a shit lsat
2. OP didnt get into NU
3. OP saw some people she thought were cocks at NU when she went to interview
4. OP is a french white person

This led op down the primrose to:
1. LSAT BAD
2. NU students live a life of luxury
3. NU needs more diversity (aka white women)

I hope your boyfriend walks away quickly because you are one narcissistic piece of shit.

164 a shitty lsat ? Go away with your LSAT remarks. What is your 1L gpa/grades ? I couldn't be more happy where i am at the moment and my awesome bf don't like it that much at NU, he knows he will get good employment and connection out of it but the community and diversity lacks at NU.

[Kali the Annihilator]

Yes, 164 is a shit lsat.

[Kali the Annihilator]

Man, I bet another white woman IS JUST THE SORT OF DIVERSITY YOUR OLD MAN NEEDS

NO JUSTUS NO PEEZ

[Bulla]

Man, I bet another white woman IS JUST THE SORT OF DIVERSITY YOUR OLD MAN NEEDS

NO JUSTUS NO PEEZ

this place has intriguing, cult-like vibes

I give life and I end it. I am the creator and the destroyer. It is right to give praise.

Sometimes when you think you're funny then you realize you're coming out as a creep. What is your gpa in 1L ?

[Kali the Annihilator]

Roughly top 1/3rd.

[Bulla]

Roughly top 1/3rd.

GPA = a number.

[Kali the Annihilator]

There is literally nothing a gpa gets you that a place on the curve does not. Plus, I was a 1L in 2010, so fuck if I remember exactly what it was.

[Bulla]

There is literally nothing a gpa gets you that a place on the curve does not. Plus, I was a 1L in 2010, so fuck if I remember exactly what it was.

Well i don't like to attack people the way you did with your lsat comment but if you can't disclose your 1L gpa or as you say can't remember, don't come in here and say 164 is a shitty score because guess what ? the median is 155 for this 2017 - 2018 cycle.

http://taxprof.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341 ... 970c-800wi

http://taxprof.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341 ... 970c-800wi

[Kali the Annihilator]

Yeah, I dont know what zinger of a point you think you are making here, but its not hitting. Subpopulations of subpopulations and all that.

[Bulla]

Yeah, I dont know what zinger of a point you think you are making here, but its not hitting. Subpopulations of subpopulations and all that.

So you got an LSAT of 120 - 149 20k+ applicants (you're telling them their scores are shitty for law schools)
You got an LSAT of 150 - 159 20k+ applicants (you're telling them their scores are shitty for law schools)
Then you got an LSAT of 160 - 180 14k+ applicants (you're telling those with 160 - 164 their scores are shitty)

Who are you again ? I forgot the e-creator. Work on your final GPA, get a good employment and learn to have compassion for others.

[feralinfant]

FWIW, I am a first generation college student who had a terrible undergraduate gpa and a high LSAT. NU was the only top school that admitted me and provided me with opportunities I had no idea even existed growing up. For me, the LSAT has been a great equalizing force. Do I wish I had less debt?
Sure. But for a few hundred dollars worth of practice tests (which I took while working one full time job and two part-time jobs) I have suddenly found myself with many of the same opportunities as people with ivy league educations and trust funds. One of my now best friends that i met in law school has a nearly identical story. It feels, anecdotally at least, like Northwestern is better at this than other top schools, but it's by no means an isolated phenomenon. A Yale graduate recently wrote a widely lauded book about his experiences called Hillbilly Elegy, for example.

I realize this is a pointless thread to respond to, but I just felt like I had to chime in, because: (1) It seems weird to single out the one school particularly willing to take a chance on splitters, especially since first-generation college students (which seems to be largely what is meant by diverse, along with low lsat scores, though my point applies even more strongly to URM first generation college students) have at least as hard a time if not some ways harder of succeeding in college than they do on the LSAT. This article from the Atlantic indicates that "Around 90 percent of lower-income first-generation students don’t graduate within six years, far below the national average for college completion." (2) A three hour test that requires no substantive knowledge is an unbelievably low hurdle to suddenly find yourself vaunted into a position where you can rub shoulders with the elite.

It also seems important to remember that it is not just most people with [fill in the blank] at lower ranked schools. Most people are at lower ranked schools, period. What this thread really seems to call for is a kind of institutional flattening/consolidation, that's not only unrealistic but likely a bad idea.

[Kali the Annihilator]

Yeah, I dont know what zinger of a point you think you are making here, but its not hitting. Subpopulations of subpopulations and all that.

So you got an LSAT of 120 - 149 20k+ applicants (you're telling them their scores are shitty for law schools)
You got an LSAT of 150 - 159 20k+ applicants (you're telling them their scores are shitty for law schools)
Then you got an LSAT of 160 - 180 14k+ applicants (you're telling those with 160 - 164 their scores are shitty)

Who are you again ? I forgot the e-creator. Work on your final GPA, get a good employment and learn to have compassion for others.

You did not forget that quickly. And fwiw, I have compassion for plenty of people. I do not, however, have empathy for an entitled narcissist who created an entire thread to bitch about a school she didnt get into when she was well below their medians and did so under the guise of "diversity". Grow the fuck up

[A. Nony Mouse]

OP, you've focused on the lack of transfers out of John Marshall during 1L. You can't transfer as a 1L. You have to have a full year of law school credits before you can transfer. There isn't anything sinister at all about transfers increasing in 2L; that's the first time students CAN transfer. So you're making up sinister explanations that don't apply at all, which seems to describe your take on this whole topic.

Students transfer after finishing 1L. 509 report of many law school would show the transfer rate by 1L not 2L. Loyola Law School Chicago 24 transfer out by 1L. If you see 2L that means the students waited until they completed their 2L year or a semester in 2L presumably

Loyola 509 1L 24 transfer out.

http://www.luc.edu/media/lucedu/law/Std ... losure.pdf

Depaul 509 1L 7 transfer out.

https://law.depaul.edu/about/Documents/ ... report.pdf

We always try to characterize something we don't like. I don't know for whose benefit. Definitely not the students.

Then they're part-time students who technically count as 2Ls but who have just completed the required number of credits. There are also caps on transfers; you can transfer after completing 1L but not later. Not all schools have a part-time program which is why you won't see this in all schools.

[Bulla]

FWIW, I am a first generation college student who had a terrible undergraduate gpa and a high LSAT. NU was the only top school that admitted me and provided me with opportunities I had no idea even existed growing up. For me, the LSAT has been a great equalizing force. Do I wish I had less debt?
Sure. But for a few hundred dollars worth of practice tests (which I took while working one full time job and two part-time jobs) I have suddenly found myself with many of the same opportunities as people with ivy league educations and trust funds. One of my now best friends that i met in law school has a nearly identical story. It feels, anecdotally at least, like Northwestern is better at this than other top schools, but it's by no means an isolated phenomenon. A Yale graduate recently wrote a widely lauded book about his experiences called Hillbilly Elegy, for example.

I realize this is a pointless thread to respond to, but I just felt like I had to chime in, because: (1) It seems weird to single out the one school particularly willing to take a chance on splitters, especially since first-generation college students (which seems to be largely what is meant by diverse, along with low lsat scores, though my point applies even more strongly to URM first generation college students) have at least as hard a time if not some ways harder of succeeding in college than they do on the LSAT. This article from the Atlantic indicates that "Around 90 percent of lower-income first-generation students don’t graduate within six years, far below the national average for college completion." (2) A three hour test that requires no substantive knowledge is an unbelievably low hurdle to suddenly find yourself vaunted into a position where you can rub shoulders with the elite.

It also seems important to remember that it is not just most people with [fill in the blank] at lower ranked schools. Most people are at lower ranked schools, period. What this thread really seems to call for is a kind of institutional flattening/consolidation, that's not only unrealistic but likely a bad idea.

Yes they make one or two exceptions http://northwestern.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats/1617 2 admitted applicants with 173 LSAT and 2.7 GPA

I am not advocating they take on mass students but they need to stop talking about diversity if that is not really their intention. They take 1 or 2 students with high lsat and low gpa to show that they are not bias for what they are advocating for. That is all. Did they do better than other T14 law schools ? May be, looking at Yale and Harvard, they don't care but they are also rank 1 and 2 or 3. They will do anything to protect those ranks. I wonder how GRE will work with admission for Harvard and its rank.

Yeah, I dont know what zinger of a point you think you are making here, but its not hitting. Subpopulations of subpopulations and all that.

So you got an LSAT of 120 - 149 20k+ applicants (you're telling them their scores are shitty for law schools)
You got an LSAT of 150 - 159 20k+ applicants (you're telling them their scores are shitty for law schools)
Then you got an LSAT of 160 - 180 14k+ applicants (you're telling those with 160 - 164 their scores are shitty)

Who are you again ? I forgot the e-creator. Work on your final GPA, get a good employment and learn to have compassion for others.

You did not forget that quickly. And fwiw, I have compassion for plenty of people. I do not, however, have empathy for an entitled narcissist who created an entire thread to bitch about a school she didnt get into when she was well below their medians and did so under the guise of "diversity". Grow the fuck up

You're messed up, i tried to show you kindness but it is not hitting the right nerves in your brain. So i am just going to ignore you. Everything will be alright for you though.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Yes they make one or two exceptions http://northwestern.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats/1617 2 admitted applicants with 173 LSAT and 2.7 GPA

I am not advocating they take on mass students but they need to stop talking about diversity if that is not really their intention. They take 1 or 2 students with high lsat and low gpa to show that they are not bias for what they are advocating for. That is all. Did they do better than other T14 law schools ? May be, looking at Yale and Harvard, they don't care but they are also rank 1 and 2 or 3. They will do anything to protect those ranks. I wonder how GRE will work with admission for Harvard and its rank.

3) diversity and rank aren't mutually exclusive. Schools can select for diverse applicants within the parameters of particular score/GPA bands.

There are obviously representation problems. Northwestern's last incoming class had 32% students of color, which is close to the representation in the US population (I think it's almost 37%). But blacks are 6.6% (compared to ~13%), Hispanics are 11% (compared to 17%), Native Americans are .5% (compared to 2%) and Asian Americans are 11% compared to 5.6%. (Then there are international students and students who didn't answer.)

HOWEVER, that in itself doesn't say much about schools' commitment to diversity without knowing 1) what those numbers have looked like over time, 2) what schools have actually done to improve those numbers, 3) how many non-white students are even taking the LSAT/applying to law school, and doubtless other things I'm overlooking.

I'm not going to claim that maintaining certain admissions standards has no effect on the makeup of a class (gatekeeping historically has had a racial/ethnic element), or that there are no improvements to be made. But I guess in terms of marketing - what is the alternative? If schools reach out to diverse students, they are apparently just using them for their yield - is the alternative *not* reaching out to diverse students? Given the correlation that exists between GPA/LSAT and law school grades, and given that law schools grade on a curve, shouldn't law schools reasonably worry about admitting students who fall below the general range of the class, in that doing so sets them up to be at the bottom of the class? (I don't know the stats on this at all but I've seen someone here insist that AA admissions disproportionately cluster in the bottom of their classes. I'm not convinced that's true or inevitable, but I think it's a legitimate concern for admissions people.)

Quoting this because you never addressed it that I can see.