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I certainly hope no one who went to law school calls him/herself "doctor". What a joke that would be.

Somebody mentioned relatively low numbers for admission to top phd programs. The way applicants get evaluated there (at good programs in hard science at least) is not by numbers but by their promise of success in research. If you have amazing research experience and already published a few discoveries that you have participated in, that will outweigh any numerical measurement there can be. After all, how does the admission to such programs work? A PI has to sponsor you. If he/she likes your work/finds it useful, then nothing else matters. So research experience and demonstrated knowledge in the field there have more importance in the admissions process than LSAT has in here. Its kind of like finding a job in that field, where your "work" experience is always the most important factor.

PhD truly is a "graduate" degree. You simply can't sign up for a PhD in neuroscience as a History major (or vice versa). You already need to have in depth knowledge and experience in the field. With law school, your UG just doesn't matter. No prior experience is required. No knowledge is required. You are not furthering anything, but instead, you are starting a new chapter. Might as well do that straight after HS to be honest.

People who find it weird to call PhD individuals a "doctor" just don't know enough about the field. And in the setting of medical research, whether you are an MD or a PhD does not dictate the results that you will achieve. However, having an MD does help because you get access to various organic samples a hospital may gather/store, but I digress.

Shootin wrote: People who find it weird to call PhD individuals a "doctor" just don't know enough about the field. And in the setting of medical research, whether you are an MD or a PhD does not dictate the results that you will achieve. However, having an MD does help because you get access to various organic samples a hospital may gather/store, but I digress.

I'll add that overseas, almost every academic with a PhD will use Dr. as a title, as professor is typically reserved for someone reaching the highest academic rank, and is very exclusive.

For example, take a look at the number using Dr. here: http://www.lse.ac.uk/economics/people/facultyA-Z.aspx

It is often appropriate to refer to holders of a doctorate as "Dr." It is often appropriate for the holder of a doctorate to list the degree initials on business cards or as part of a signature. It is rarely appropriate for any holder of a doctorate to refer to oneself as a "Doctor" or as "Dr." Introducing oneself to someone who has just introduced him or her self to you as "Dr." would seem to be a reasonable exception. Introducing oneself to patients in a health care setting would also seem to be a reasonable exception.

It is often appropriate to refer to holders of a J.D. as "Esquire." It is not appropriate for the holder of a J.D. to refer to oneself as "Esquire," or to include "Esq." on business cards or as part of a signature.

The J.D. was the original doctorate, having first been granted at the University of Bologna hundreds of years ago. ( The University of Chicago has awarded the J.D. since its first class graduated in 1905.) Holders of the J.D. who are university presidents are nearly always referred to as Dr. Holders of and candidates for the J.D. always wear doctoral gowns and hoods at commencement ceremonies.

A J.D. takes only three years to complete, does not require a dissertation, and is not a research doctorate, but it is nevertheless a professional doctorate. Other examples of professional doctorates are: D.D.S., D.M.D., D.O., D.Pharm., D.P.M., D.V.M., M.D., and O.D. By the way, M.D. does not stand for medical doctor, it stands for Doctor of Medicine or Medicinae Doctor.

A J.D. is not the highest degree in law, as the J.S.D. and LL.M. are higher. A D.D.S. and D.M.D. are not the highest degrees in dentistry, as the M.S. in dentistry is higher.

Custom has made it unusual for J.D. holders to be referred to as "Dr.," or to list the degree initials on business cards or as part of a signature. That custom is based on the fact that until 1971, not all law schools awarded the J.D. Obviously younger lawyers have felt intimidated by the older lawyers who do not hold a J.D. Secondly, because so few holders of the J.D. list the degree initials on business cards or as part of a signature, many non lawyers have never even heard of the J.D. Thirdly, the media invariably refer to the J.D. only as a 'law degree.'

I have a PhD and shortly after I got it I moved to a new city and opened up a bank account. The banker asked me if the card should say “Mr.” and I said yes. Then she said “But you have your doctorate right? That’s how you’re teaching at the university?” I said thats true, and she said “well you worked hard for that degree, you worked all those years, you earned it.” I thought about it and I decided to put “Dr.” because I figured whatever(also I had heard that you get bumped to first class more if you’re a doctor). When the card came it said “Hutz Goodman M.D.” I honestly just laughed, and I called the bank to get a new card, and cut up the card and threw it in the garbage. Shortly thereafter, I was at a BBQ and the friend who brought me was a medical doctor. Almost everyone at this party was a physician. I told this anecdote with the punchline that “I have a Ph.D., so I’m a Dr., but I’m not an MD like you guys.” There was complete silence in response. No one laughed. It was obvious that they thought someone with a Ph.D isn’t an actual doctor. Anyway, since then I haven’t used Dr. at all and lol at having someone call you doctor because you have a JD. Also lol at physicians who take their degree so seriously that they want to be called Dr. all the time.

KeYe88 wrote:

Capitol_Idea wrote:No. Real doctorates require much more work and/or actual contribution to research.

The JD is about equivalent to a Master's degree, really.
My Ph.D wife would feed me my severed tongue if I called myself a doctor.

so is there is any wrong with calling oneself a doctor, ethically, practically and legally?

one thing to note is that most international hiring organizations do not consider JDs even to be masters level and will require you to have a separate "masters" degree in a different topic (or an LLM) to apply to masters level job. this is true for the whole UN system and basically anyone who follows UN hiring (i.e. a lot of international IGOs, ICC, etc). fair or not, it's bc the US system is the ONLY system basically where law is a graduate degree instead of undergrad, and these orgs are not going to make special requirements for graduates of american law schools. with that said, I think you could invite yourself into a lot of weird conversations employment-wise if you're looking at international opportunities, calling yourself a doctor, and then they're like by our standards you're literally not even a masters level candidate...just seems like you're opening yourself up to look like a douche and potentially find yourself boxed out of things, without a whole lot of payoff at the end except the momentary thrill of having people call you doctor

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote: ... I was at a BBQ and the friend who brought me was a medical doctor. Almost everyone at this party was a physician ... It was obvious that they thought someone with a Ph.D isn’t an actual doctor. Anyway, since then I haven’t used Dr. at all and lol at having someone call you doctor because you have a JD ...

M.D. is a degree, not a job title. Contrary to popular belief, it does not stand for medical doctor. It stands for Medicinae Doctor or Doctor of Medicine.

Of course the Ph.D., M.D., and J.D. are all doctor's degrees which are acquired with varying difficulty and lengths of time. The original doctor's degree was the J.D. and the Ph.D. is the one which requires a dissertation. However, the doctor's degree which has come to be most associated with the title of Dr. is the M.D. For this reason, while holders of the Ph.D. hold a doctor's degree and are certainly entitled to the title of Dr., referring to them as "a doctor," is nearly certain to confuse and mislead.

It is bad manners to "hav[e] ... someone call you ... [Dr.] ..." It is not bad manners to list your doctor's degree initials after your name and hope that those who see those initials get the hint.

KeYe88 wrote:

Capitol_Idea wrote:No. Real doctorates require much more work and/or actual contribution to research.

The JD is about equivalent to a Master's degree, really.
My Ph.D wife would feed me my severed tongue if I called myself a doctor.

so is there is any wrong with calling oneself a doctor, ethically, practically and legally?

Alright I didn't scroll through the entire thread so I'm not sure if someone has said this before, but I learned in undergrad that apparently the only setting in which it's acceptable for a J.D. to be referred to as "Dr." is in an academic setting. Aka only if you're a professor.

... I learned in undergrad that apparently the only setting in which it's acceptable for a J.D. to be referred to as "Dr." is in an academic setting. Aka only if you're a professor.

Apparently there is a special custom regarding the J.D., which calls for it to be treated as inferior to all other professional degrees:
Dentistry (D.D.S. or D.M.D.), Medicine (M.D.), Optometry (O.D.), Osteopathic Medicine (D.O), Pharmacy (Pharm.D.), Podiatry (D.P.M.), and Veterinary Medicine (D.V.M.).

legalace wrote:

... I learned in undergrad that apparently the only setting in which it's acceptable for a J.D. to be referred to as "Dr." is in an academic setting. Aka only if you're a professor.

Apparently there is a special custom regarding the J.D., which calls for it to be treated as inferior to all other professional degrees:
Dentistry (D.D.S. or D.M.D.), Medicine (M.D.), Optometry (O.D.), Osteopathic Medicine (D.O), Pharmacy (Pharm.D.), Podiatry (D.P.M.), and Veterinary Medicine (D.V.M.).

Those are degrees where you actually provide medical treatment, though, or the very definition of a doctor (as opposed to Doctor). Those people are called doctor for their medical expertise, not just because there’s “doctor” in their title. (Pharmacy excepted, I guess.)

Then there is the Doctor of Ministry (D.Min.) degree: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Ministry

yes, there are lots of kinds of doctoral degrees. Not everyone who holds them goes around and calls themselves "Doctor." I don't know that D.Mins. go by "doctor" professionally. However, even if they do, the degree has different requirements than a JD does (most notably a dissertation).

yes, there are lots of kinds of doctoral degrees. Not everyone who holds them goes around and calls themselves "Doctor." I don't know that D.Mins. go by "doctor" professionally. However, even if they do, the degree has different requirements than a JD does (most notably a dissertation).

"[T]here are lots of kinds of doctoral degrees ... and everyone who them" is referred to as "Doctor," except for those who hold the J.D. The Doctor of Ministry (D.Min.) degree does not require a dissertation, but those who hold it are (like every other holder of a professional doctoral degree except the J.D.) referred to as "Doctor."

Actually from what I saw the D.Min. does require a dissertation, or at least, an independent research project. Yeah

The JD just isn’t comparable to other doctoral degrees bc either it doesn’t require the kind of sustained research project many do, or it doesn’t have a medical element to it. It’s also not the highest level degree you can get in the field (there are SJD degrees).

What it boils down to is that JDs who try to go by “doctor” are just going to look pretentious. It’s just the way the world is. If you want to be called “doctor” do a degree that requires a dissertation or go into a medical field.

In additional to agreeing with those folks whose sentiments are that JDs calling themselves "doctor" are asinine, I would add that from my perspective (and to be fair I work in the government contracting realm with many attorneys, including myself, but not an actual firm), whenever I see folks putting "JD" in their signature block, I instantly discredit them. There's nothing wrong of being proud of your JD but when it crosses the line to tone deafness, you'll generally be discredited. JDs, at least in DC, are a dime a dozen. We have a doctoral level degree, sure, but we are absolutely not doctors.

Actually from what I saw the D.Min. does require a dissertation, or at least, an independent research project...
The JD just isn’t comparable to other doctoral degrees bc either it doesn’t require the kind of sustained research project many do, or it doesn’t have a medical element to it. It’s also not the highest level degree you can get in the field (there are SJD degrees). What it boils down to is that JDs who try to go by “doctor” are just going to look pretentious.

The D.Min does indeed require "an independent research project," but that is a long way from requiring a dissertation.

Like the J.D., the D.D.S. and D.M.D. are not the highest level degrees available in the field (the M.S.D. is but one example of a higher dental degree).

Within academia, use of the title "Doctor" for the J.D. is firmly established. Admittedly, that is not the case elsewhere.

No, it’s not. I’ve never seen a JD in academia called doctor.

I’ve never seen a JD in academia called doctor.

Here are some University Presidents who hold a J.D. and are referred to as Dr.:

https://www.google.com/search?lr=&as_qd ... ps9pg9nk1c

https://www.google.com/search?lr=&as_qd ... ttMuFUkiqM

https://www.google.com/search?lr=&as_qd ... 1gt1Sqe9bQ

https://www.google.com/search?lr=&as_qd ... z2HUqtNR3k

...those are examples of you googling "Dr. Derek Bok" (or "Dr. Whoever") and Google finding results for you of random letter writers etc. referring to those people as "Dr." If you search their actual university website/affiliations, they're not referred to as Doctor.

Random people on the internet referring to a university president whose background they likely don't know as "Dr." =/= JDs in academia being referred to as Doctor. I was in academia for over a decade. I promise, a JD doesn't get you called Dr.

Can you? Yes. Should you? No. /thread

Nekrowizard wrote:I wouldn't even call a Ph.D a doctor. If a Ph.D I know insisted on it, I would relentlessly mock them both to their faces and behind their backs. It's either MD or nothing.

+1

xspider wrote:This site is so weird, I assume we all want to be lawyers. But the majority appear to always try to downplay and belittle attorneys in most cases. I wouldn't call myself a doctor once I graduate school, unless maybe in a joke. But claiming people do "nothing of value" in law school and calling us garbage compared to other schools of education is ridiculous.

If people seem to be that ashamed of becoming an attorney, why not do something you would be proud of?

TLS in a nutshell. 1) Lawyers are worthless and overpaid; 2) even if you graduate from a T6, you should be so humble that if you can't find a single big/midsize law firm job you should still be blessed and thankful for making 60k in a 4-man insurance defense firm

clshopeful wrote:

xspider wrote:This site is so weird, I assume we all want to be lawyers. But the majority appear to always try to downplay and belittle attorneys in most cases. I wouldn't call myself a doctor once I graduate school, unless maybe in a joke. But claiming people do "nothing of value" in law school and calling us garbage compared to other schools of education is ridiculous.

If people seem to be that ashamed of becoming an attorney, why not do something you would be proud of?

TLS in a nutshell. 1) Lawyers are worthless and overpaid; 2) even if you graduate from a T6, you should be so humble that if you can't find a single big/midsize law firm job you should still be blessed and thankful for making 60k in a 4-man insurance defense firm

Honestly, we just do it to discourage entry into our oversaturated job market.