Success without passion? Forum

[MC Southstar]

People don't like lawyers because they are AFRAID of them. To most people, the law is intimidating at best, and a threat to their misdeeds at worst.

Doctors, drug companies? They don't have the respect they used to in any way shape or form. The healthcare issue is being tweeked by their interests, and its obvious.

That too, but I think it is the methods of lawyers that they have ethical complaint about. Using any tactic available to win an argument. Not everyone thinks the ends justify the means.

Absolutely true. Agreed. And, how disapointing that the law is used to circumvent the law (loose quote: Ambrose Pierce)

Btw, I also used to be an INFP but became an ENFP after challenging myself (I realize it's self-perception but self-perception is also a self-fulfilling prophecy and vice versa).

[Mr. Pablo]

In choosing a career I think it is important to like the activities of that career.
For instance, no one ever says 'I am passionate about being a bicycle messenger.' (maybe someone does, but no bike messenger I have ever met), it is more along the lines of 'I really like to ride my bicycle, and I am willing to ride my bicycle for 40+ hours/week. What career would allow me to ride my bicycle a lot?'

If you really like sitting and reading for hours and hours, and you like arguing about the material you have read, then being a lawyer makes sense. You have to like the very specific physical activity of what you are doing (bicycling, arguing, cooking, etc..). If you don't like measuring, cutting, and joining wood very precisely, don't go out and try to be a cabinet maker. Cabinet makers don't love the idea of cabinets- they like making things made of wood.

[OperaSoprano]

Why are you going into Law?

1) Power, Prestige, Big Money, Big Law

or

2) Passion for the field, altruistic motives, i.e. dreams of Justice, make the world a better place etc.

3) Because I needed a job that wasn't 3rd shift at the gas station?

As the economy goes further down the shitter this is increasingly the response. I was thinking about this the other day. Say you're a person who has had good grades growing up. You graduate from high school and go to college. You major in something you're "passionate" about (English, Philosophy, Fashion, etc.) and you do well. You graduate and find yourself in the job market but you can't seem to get anything terribly great. You have a worthless degree and little to no work experience except some work study job you did part time in college and you feel like a failure. What can you do? Law School! woo-hoo! You have been a professional student since you were 5 years old so continuing to do student things is right up your alley. It's easy to get into (no pesky science requirements like med school) and you have 3 more years to distinguish yourself and get a marketable skill set. It makes sense. You are 23 and have terrible career prospects with a worthless degree so why not go and do what you have been good at your whole life? School.

This may lead to some sad faces when you actually enter the profession and hate it or you do poorly due to lack of interest in the law but I can see why so many people fall back on law school. There are tons of people who go once they realize a BA in meaningless shit = you better keep going to school or work for peanuts while you try and move up the ladder (in a great majority of cases). For the record I'm not advising people to go to LS cuz you can't do anything with your BA I just can understand the thinking behind it because I find myself in this exact situation.

Your point totally well taken. I seem to run across this a lot: Men are more apt to choose Law for the bigmoney...they want to support their families, make a good living and also have some degree of professional prowess. The women are more inclined to look at the altruistic side, as well as a career. But I think on some level, they know they can fall back on a husband...maybe a BIGLAW husband. The guys are hell bent to succeed or killself by nature. More power to you, seriously. If my advocacy work won't pay the bills, I'll marry one of you!

Haha, everyone expects me to do the same. Hoff and I had a fight over it, actually. I told him I'd starve before marrying someone I didn't love. Everyone says I'd make a wonderful trophy wife, but they know me too well to think I'd really do it. Yuck. Give me a cute nerd any day. I don't think an INFP girl could marry without love either, but there's no telling who we might meet in this profession.

[summerstar]

In choosing a career I think it is important to like the activities of that career.
For instance, no one ever says 'I am passionate about being a bicycle messenger.' (maybe someone does, but no bike messenger I have ever met), it is more along the lines of 'I really like to ride my bicycle, and I am willing to ride my bicycle for 40+ hours/week. What career would allow me to ride my bicycle a lot?'

If you really like sitting and reading for hours and hours, and you like arguing about the material you have read, then being a lawyer makes sense. You have to like the very specific physical activity of what you are doing (bicycling, arguing, cooking, etc..). If you don't like measuring, cutting, and joining wood very precisely, don't go out and try to be a cabinet maker. Cabinet makers don't love the idea of cabinets- they like making things made of wood.

ahmm... I REALLY like my French cabinet, and I never considered becoming a carpenter. However, and this is an aside, I did enjoy learning about how it was made, how the drawers were dovetailed, the curing of the wood and the shaping of the veneer.

[summerstar]

People don't like lawyers because they are AFRAID of them. To most people, the law is intimidating at best, and a threat to their misdeeds at worst.

Doctors, drug companies? They don't have the respect they used to in any way shape or form. The healthcare issue is being tweeked by their interests, and its obvious.

That too, but I think it is the methods of lawyers that they have ethical complaint about. Using any tactic available to win an argument. Not everyone thinks the ends justify the means.

Absolutely true. Agreed. And, how disapointing that the law is used to circumvent the law (loose quote: Ambrose Pierce)

Btw, I also used to be an INFP but became an ENFP after challenging myself (I realize it's self-perception but self-perception is also a self-fulfilling prophecy and vice versa).

No, that is really wild...you still sound like an INFP sometimes in your posts...just seem to have that intuitive/sensitive side. I enjoy your posts because of that. Not the usual jerk stuff.

[thegor1987]

ahmm... I REALLY like my French cabinet, and I never considered becoming a carpenter. However, and this is an aside, I did enjoy learning about how it was made, how the drawers were dovetailed, the curing of the wood and the shaping of the veneer.

hmmm, sounds like a process that has been outlined in a LSAT RC passage

[summerstar]

ahmm... I REALLY like my French cabinet, and I never considered becoming a carpenter. However, and this is an aside, I did enjoy learning about how it was made, how the drawers were dovetailed, the curing of the wood and the shaping of the veneer.

hmmm, sounds like a process that has been outlined in a LSAT RC passage

I know. sick, right?

[thegor1987]

ahmm... I REALLY like my French cabinet, and I never considered becoming a carpenter. However, and this is an aside, I did enjoy learning about how it was made, how the drawers were dovetailed, the curing of the wood and the shaping of the veneer.

hmmm, sounds like a process that has been outlined in a LSAT RC passage

I know. sick, right?

according to the passage, the author would most likely agree with which of the following statements regarding the shaping of the veneer?

Answer choices: a) does not give a shit
b) really doesn't give a shit
c) highest level of not giving a shit
d) answer choices are too ambiguous
e) this is the correct answer choice

[summerstar]

ahmm... I REALLY like my French cabinet, and I never considered becoming a carpenter. However, and this is an aside, I did enjoy learning about how it was made, how the drawers were dovetailed, the curing of the wood and the shaping of the veneer.

hmmm, sounds like a process that has been outlined in a LSAT RC passage

I know. sick, right?

according to the passage, the author would most likely agree with which of the following statements regarding the shaping of the veneer?

Answer choices: a) does not give a shit
b) really doesn't give a shit
c) highest level of not giving a shit
d) answer choices are too ambiguous
e) this is the correct answer choice

Yes, yes, yes! and again YES!

[OperaSoprano]

OS, lovely words go with a lovely voice! ( I can hear it in the way you write, honestly) Yes, I sing too, not so much opera anymore. I LOVE La Boheme...thinking about the MET schedule just last night, haven't seen it in a long time.

YES! My name is ------ and I'm an INFP! Help! What am I doing here?I have strong T and E days, and one reason I'm looking forward to Law School, God willing, is because I want to cultivate those sides of myself, so find it fascinating and inspiring you went from I to E. I def can, given the right milieu. I just happen to be living out in provincial suburbia right now and AM sooo out of my elemnt, having exhausted the potential of this small town. Ugh, but I digress.

Have you ever sung the part of Mimi? Yes? Lucky girl!

You are too sweet! Are you taking lessons now? I'm a light lyric soprano, so my voice isn't really big enough yet to sing Mimi. I could do Susanna in Marriage of Figaro, if I had time to go back to studying. I'd probably have to do the conservatory thing for real, and I don't know that I'd ever be good enough not to be disappointed in myself. What type of repertoire did/do you do?

What schools are you considering? Come to New York! I go to the Met as often as possible; I'm going on the 7th, actually. I've never seen Turandot, but many of my friends haven't been at all, and that needs to be remedied.

There are people like us in law school. If I meet anyone with even slight F tendencies, I am very happy, but then NT boys will do nicely. As for becoming an E, it happened so gradually I scarcely realized what was happening. I just realized my behavior was, for the most part, inconsistent with introversion. I love to get involved in other people's problems, and I'm not nearly private enough about my own. Most of all, I want to be useful to society, if I can be. Law school changes people quite profoundly. I feel a lot better about my own life since becoming a law student, and the people I've met are little short of amazing.

[MC Southstar]

OS, lovely words go with a lovely voice! ( I can hear it in the way you write, honestly) Yes, I sing too, not so much opera anymore. I LOVE La Boheme...thinking about the MET schedule just last night, haven't seen it in a long time.

YES! My name is ------ and I'm an INFP! Help! What am I doing here?I have strong T and E days, and one reason I'm looking forward to Law School, God willing, is because I want to cultivate those sides of myself, so find it fascinating and inspiring you went from I to E. I def can, given the right milieu. I just happen to be living out in provincial suburbia right now and AM sooo out of my elemnt, having exhausted the potential of this small town. Ugh, but I digress.

Have you ever sung the part of Mimi? Yes? Lucky girl!

You are too sweet! Are you taking lessons now? I'm a light lyric soprano, so my voice isn't really big enough yet to sing Mimi. I could do Susanna in Marriage of Figaro, if I had time to go back to studying. I'd probably have to do the conservatory thing for real, and I don't know that I'd ever be good enough not to be disappointed in myself. What type of repertoire did/do you do?

What schools are you considering? Come to New York! I go to the Met as often as possible; I'm going on the 7th, actually. I've never seen Turandot, but many of my friends haven't been at all, and that needs to be remedied.

There are people like us in law school. If I meet anyone with even slight F tendencies, I am very happy, but then NT boys will do nicely. As for becoming an E, it happened so gradually I scarcely realized what was happening. I just realized my behavior was, for the most part, inconsistent with introversion. I love to get involved in other people's problems, and I'm not nearly private enough about my own. Most of all, I want to be useful to society, if I can be. Law school changes people quite profoundly. I feel a lot better about my own life since becoming a law student, and the people I've met are little short of amazing.

That's good to hear. I wasn't really sure if our personality type was really conducive with law school. It seems that law is mostly an STJ endeavor, but I'm sure there's room for NFP qualities as well.

[summerstar]

OS, lovely words go with a lovely voice! ( I can hear it in the way you write, honestly) Yes, I sing too, not so much opera anymore. I LOVE La Boheme...thinking about the MET schedule just last night, haven't seen it in a long time.

YES! My name is ------ and I'm an INFP! Help! What am I doing here?I have strong T and E days, and one reason I'm looking forward to Law School, God willing, is because I want to cultivate those sides of myself, so find it fascinating and inspiring you went from I to E. I def can, given the right milieu. I just happen to be living out in provincial suburbia right now and AM sooo out of my elemnt, having exhausted the potential of this small town. Ugh, but I digress.

Have you ever sung the part of Mimi? Yes? Lucky girl!

You are too sweet! Are you taking lessons now? I'm a light lyric soprano, so my voice isn't really big enough yet to sing Mimi. I could do Susanna in Marriage of Figaro, if I had time to go back to studying. I'd probably have to do the conservatory thing for real, and I don't know that I'd ever be good enough not to be disappointed in myself. What type of repertoire did/do you do?

What schools are you considering? Come to New York! I go to the Met as often as possible; I'm going on the 7th, actually. I've never seen Turandot, but many of my friends haven't been at all, and that needs to be remedied.

There are people like us in law school. If I meet anyone with even slight F tendencies, I am very happy, but then NT boys will do nicely. As for becoming an E, it happened so gradually I scarcely realized what was happening. I just realized my behavior was, for the most part, inconsistent with introversion. I love to get involved in other people's problems, and I'm not nearly private enough about my own. Most of all, I want to be useful to society, if I can be. Law school changes people quite profoundly. I feel a lot better about my own life since becoming a law student, and the people I've met are little short of amazing.

Right. And most of my E tendencies are the result of my introspection/introversion moments. You can't give what you haven't got, if that makes any sense. I'm thinking these are the qualities that make for compassion. The work for others BEGINS inward.

"L'amour est un oiseau rebelle..." I sang Carmen once, I'm an alto-sop. But mostly, don't laugh, I'm from the Joni Mitchell breed.

Turandot? really? see you there!

[Mr. Pablo]

In choosing a career I think it is important to like the activities of that career.
For instance, no one ever says 'I am passionate about being a bicycle messenger.' (maybe someone does, but no bike messenger I have ever met), it is more along the lines of 'I really like to ride my bicycle, and I am willing to ride my bicycle for 40+ hours/week. What career would allow me to ride my bicycle a lot?'

If you really like sitting and reading for hours and hours, and you like arguing about the material you have read, then being a lawyer makes sense. You have to like the very specific physical activity of what you are doing (bicycling, arguing, cooking, etc..). If you don't like measuring, cutting, and joining wood very precisely, don't go out and try to be a cabinet maker. Cabinet makers don't love the idea of cabinets- they like making things made of wood.

ahmm... I REALLY like my French cabinet, and I never considered becoming a carpenter. However, and this is an aside, I did enjoy learning about how it was made, how the drawers were dovetailed, the curing of the wood and the shaping of the veneer.

Its not whether you like the cabinet or not, its whether your like actually engaging in the acts required to produce a cabinet.

[OperaSoprano]

OS, lovely words go with a lovely voice! ( I can hear it in the way you write, honestly) Yes, I sing too, not so much opera anymore. I LOVE La Boheme...thinking about the MET schedule just last night, haven't seen it in a long time.

YES! My name is ------ and I'm an INFP! Help! What am I doing here?I have strong T and E days, and one reason I'm looking forward to Law School, God willing, is because I want to cultivate those sides of myself, so find it fascinating and inspiring you went from I to E. I def can, given the right milieu. I just happen to be living out in provincial suburbia right now and AM sooo out of my elemnt, having exhausted the potential of this small town. Ugh, but I digress.

Have you ever sung the part of Mimi? Yes? Lucky girl!

You are too sweet! Are you taking lessons now? I'm a light lyric soprano, so my voice isn't really big enough yet to sing Mimi. I could do Susanna in Marriage of Figaro, if I had time to go back to studying. I'd probably have to do the conservatory thing for real, and I don't know that I'd ever be good enough not to be disappointed in myself. What type of repertoire did/do you do?

What schools are you considering? Come to New York! I go to the Met as often as possible; I'm going on the 7th, actually. I've never seen Turandot, but many of my friends haven't been at all, and that needs to be remedied.

There are people like us in law school. If I meet anyone with even slight F tendencies, I am very happy, but then NT boys will do nicely. As for becoming an E, it happened so gradually I scarcely realized what was happening. I just realized my behavior was, for the most part, inconsistent with introversion. I love to get involved in other people's problems, and I'm not nearly private enough about my own. Most of all, I want to be useful to society, if I can be. Law school changes people quite profoundly. I feel a lot better about my own life since becoming a law student, and the people I've met are little short of amazing.

That's good to hear. I wasn't really sure if our personality type was really conducive with law school. It seems that law is mostly an STJ endeavor, but I'm sure there's room for NFP qualities as well.

We are underrepresented in law school, but we're needed. Your classmates will appreciate the fact that you genuinely care about people, and are not just there to make bank, or out of a sense of duty. Most of my law student friends are actually INTJs or ENTJs, with a smattering of INTPs and ESTJs. My roommate and fellow Fordham student is an INFJ, and we have tons in common. I predict you'll be happy if you can find a way to channel your skills toward helping your classmates, and people in general (IE: volunteer work and clinics).

[OperaSoprano]

OS, lovely words go with a lovely voice! ( I can hear it in the way you write, honestly) Yes, I sing too, not so much opera anymore. I LOVE La Boheme...thinking about the MET schedule just last night, haven't seen it in a long time.

YES! My name is ------ and I'm an INFP! Help! What am I doing here?I have strong T and E days, and one reason I'm looking forward to Law School, God willing, is because I want to cultivate those sides of myself, so find it fascinating and inspiring you went from I to E. I def can, given the right milieu. I just happen to be living out in provincial suburbia right now and AM sooo out of my elemnt, having exhausted the potential of this small town. Ugh, but I digress.

Have you ever sung the part of Mimi? Yes? Lucky girl!

You are too sweet! Are you taking lessons now? I'm a light lyric soprano, so my voice isn't really big enough yet to sing Mimi. I could do Susanna in Marriage of Figaro, if I had time to go back to studying. I'd probably have to do the conservatory thing for real, and I don't know that I'd ever be good enough not to be disappointed in myself. What type of repertoire did/do you do?

What schools are you considering? Come to New York! I go to the Met as often as possible; I'm going on the 7th, actually. I've never seen Turandot, but many of my friends haven't been at all, and that needs to be remedied.

There are people like us in law school. If I meet anyone with even slight F tendencies, I am very happy, but then NT boys will do nicely. As for becoming an E, it happened so gradually I scarcely realized what was happening. I just realized my behavior was, for the most part, inconsistent with introversion. I love to get involved in other people's problems, and I'm not nearly private enough about my own. Most of all, I want to be useful to society, if I can be. Law school changes people quite profoundly. I feel a lot better about my own life since becoming a law student, and the people I've met are little short of amazing.

Right. And most of my E tendencies are the result of my introspection/introversion moments. You can't give what you haven't got, if that makes any sense. I'm thinking these are the qualities that make for compassion. The work for others BEGINS inward.

"L'amour est un oiseau rebelle..." I sang Carmen once, I'm an alto-sop. But mostly, don't laugh, I'm from the Joni Mitchell breed.

Turandot? really? see you there!

Are you going to that performance? Seriously? I'm going with another TLSer, and that would be an insane coincidence.

[summerstar]

Mr. P ---Right, that's why I said that as aside. My next thought was that wanting to be a lawyer, for me, is exactly about wanting to not only see how it's made, but learning how to make it because I enjoy not only the finished product, but the process itself. My interest is in studying the law. Becoming a lawyer is almost secondary (almost). If we weren't living in the day and age of law schools I would literally be reading the law right now. Just reading the law. And I mean that in the classic sense, studying law the way our forefathers did.

[OperaSoprano]

Mr. P ---Right, that's why I said that as aside. My next thought was that wanting to be a lawyer, for me, is exactly about wanting to not only see how it's made, but learning how to make it because I enjoy not only the finished product, but the process itself. My interest is in studying the law. Becoming a lawyer is almost secondary (almost). If we weren't living in the day and age of law schools I would literaly be READING the law right now. Just reading the law. And I mean that in the classic sense, studying law the way our forefathers did.

You read my mind. Seriously. That, and meeting fellow law students and interacting with them, and learning a skill that will allow me to do something useful for the people in my community who don't have the resources to buy effective aid. Of course I hope I'll get to practice, but law school has a great deal of intrinsic value to me.

[summerstar]

Mr. P ---Right, that's why I said that as aside. My next thought was that wanting to be a lawyer, for me, is exactly about wanting to not only see how it's made, but learning how to make it because I enjoy not only the finished product, but the process itself. My interest is in studying the law. Becoming a lawyer is almost secondary (almost). If we weren't living in the day and age of law schools I would literaly be READING the law right now. Just reading the law. And I mean that in the classic sense, studying law the way our forefathers did.

You read my mind. Seriously. That, and meeting fellow law students and interacting with them, and learning a skill that will allow me to do something useful for the people in my community who don't have the resources to buy effective aid. Of course I hope I'll get to practice, but law school has a great deal of intrinsic value to me.

Of course it does. You seem very multi-faceted. Other types miss something, I think. While they may get the technicality of the law, they may miss the spirit of the law. I don't know, I'm not in LS yet, so don't want to overstep my bounds here. Thanks for the Bon Courage!

[excelsiorcaelo]

Oh, Opera. You're obsessed with this personality test!

You already know this, but, fwiw to the others in this thread, I went from INTJ to ENTJ after making a conscious decision to become more extroverted.

If I recall your book correctly, NTJ is the real law student combo.

[summerstar]

Oh, Opera. You're obsessed with this personality test!

You already know this, but, fwiw to the others in this thread, I went from INTJ to ENTJ after making a conscious decision to become more extroverted.

If I recall your book correctly, NTJ is the real law student combo.

it takes all kinds, I think in the long run. But, the real go-getters rule the day in law because it is sooo fierce. So, I can study the law and do your research while you go fight the trial court dragons. Actually, I see myself as a definite second chair type. Room for INFP's there?

[OperaSoprano]

Oh, Opera. You're obsessed with this personality test!

You already know this, but, fwiw to the others in this thread, I went from INTJ to ENTJ after making a conscious decision to become more extroverted.

If I recall your book correctly, NTJ is the real law student combo.

Isabel Briggs Myers says TJ is the law student combo, but for some reason everyone I know in law school is an N, except for Rayiner.

...and yes, I am obsessed with this personality test. Psych is one of the few fields as fascinating as law. I really want a JD/MSW. Maybe someday I can get a PhD in psychology? My father was a student until age 30, so I have a few years to go before I can break his record.

Are you back at school? Don't you guys start tomorrow with that silly winter term of yours?

Summerstar: There is so room for I/ENFPs. I/ENTJs need us.

[summerstar]

JD/MSW is a kick ass combination. Do it.

[kn6542]

Your classmates will appreciate the fact that you genuinely care about people, and are not just there to make bank, or out of a sense of duty.

No, they really won't.

[vanwinkle]

I keep considering pursuing a dual-degree program and getting an MA in Sociology. It's one of the options offered here at UVA, and I just think it's another thing I'd enjoy studying. I kind of wish now I'd studied sociology or psychology in college.

[MC Southstar]

I keep considering pursuing a dual-degree program and getting an MA in Sociology. It's one of the options offered here at UVA, and I just think it's another thing I'd enjoy studying. I kind of wish now I'd studied sociology or psychology in college.

I wish I could do something like this, but I'm not sure how much of an negative impact it would have on my wallet and how useless it may prove to a career.