Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions Forum

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DerekMeeker

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Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by DerekMeeker » Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:39 pm

www.deanmeekerconsulting.com

Hi, everyone. I am Derek Meeker, former Dean of Admissions for Penn Law School and prior Recruiting Manager for global law firm Paul Hastings. I also served as a reader for the University of Chicago Law School. As a consultant, I have assisted numerous clients in gaining admission to every top 14 school and many other schools across the country.

I am available to answer any questions you have regarding your law school applications. Also, if your goal is to work in "big law," I can answer questions about the law firm hiring process. My perspective is based on 15+ years of experience and longstanding relationships with the decision makers at the top law schools.

Also, check out my blogs on Waitlist Tips, Personal Statement Tips, and the benefits of working prior to law school: http://www.deanmeekerconsulting.com/deans-list-2/.

I look forward to hearing from you!

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Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by reasonable person » Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:48 pm

FIRST

Great to meet you Dean Meeker.
Hope you enjoy your stay at TLS.

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Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by jewkidontheblock » Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:52 pm

What would you say the biggest misconception about the law school application process is?

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Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by DerekMeeker » Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:33 pm

I would say the biggest misconception about the law school application process is that it is based solely on numbers, and that misconception is particularly true for the top law schools. Of course, if your LSAT and UGPA are above a school's medians, you are starting off in a very strong position, but all of the other components of your application still need to be strong for admission. I know that at Penn (and at other top schools) each file is carefully reviewed in its entirety and each potential admission offer is taken very seriously. I recently attended a LAWS panel that the top 14 schools hosted, and one of the deans who was on the panel said something along the lines of: we may be choosing a future Supreme Court justice or the president of the United States, so great care goes into the reading of each application. Now, I know that may sound like somewhat of an extreme statement, but beyond the schools from which future justices and presidents typically graduate, the fact is, there is a tremendous amount of pressure on schools to get their students and graduates jobs (and not just any job, but jobs that require a JD). The admissions committees need to consider that when they are making admission offers. (A high LSAT and/or high UGPA alone does not necessarily make someone marketable as a lawyer!) My point is, regardless of what an applicant's numbers are, s/he should put together a thoughtful, polished application that is the best representation of her or him all the way around. Also, the non-numeric factors can make a big difference in the merit scholarship selection process; not all high LSAT/high UGPA admits are going to get a scholarship. So, applicants shouldn't let the "it's all about the numbers" misconception encourage a cavalier approach, even during a time when applications are down.
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Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by FSK » Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:43 pm

What is your honest opinion of unranked law schools, and schools that place very few graduates into jobs?

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Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by lhanvt13 » Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:48 pm

Competition! Always good for the market

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Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by DerekMeeker » Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:38 pm

What is your honest opinion of unranked law schools, and schools that place very few graduates into jobs?

Well, it is very clear that the legal market, as structured, has been unable to sustain the number of law school graduates for the last several years, and lower-ranked schools, particularly in more competitive markets, have been hit the hardest. Due to the current drop in enrolled law students and a slight uptick in legal jobs, that issue is beginning to correct itself. Still, that is going to take some time to materialize (and with so much political unrest in the world right now, who knows how long our economy will remain stable or continue to grow. But I digress a bit.) The bottom line is, a legal education is a major investment and you must give thoughtful consideration to your likely return on that investment. Look very closely at the breakdown of the ABA reports on placement for each school you are considering: http://employmentsummary.abaquestionnaire.org/. What is the total number of graduates are employed? More importantly, of those, how many are in jobs that REQUIRE bar passage? Then look to at the Employment Type data, i.e., where those graduates are employed (solo practitioners, small firms, large firms, public sector, etc.). That will give you some sense of the salaries those graduates are earning. And be sure to ask the schools to give you the salary data for their graduates - as well as the average debt load of their graduates, which is another very important consideration. (NALP and US News are also good resources for this data.) So, basically, you need to ask: what is the likelihood that I will get a job? And in what setting (thus, what is my likely salary going to be)? And what is it going to cost me to attend this school (thus, what is my likely salary to debt ratio)? Only you can determine whether it would be worth attending a particular school based on this information. I just generated the ABA employment data for a "lower ranked" school in what is a pretty competitive legal market to just give you a quick example. It showed that 43% of their graduates were employed in a "bar passage required" job nine months after graduation (and most in very small firms, business or the public sector); 36% were unemployed and seeking. Median salary of these grads: $60,000. The average cost to attend this school per year (tuition, fees and living expenses) is about $70,000. Now, that is only about $10,000 less than the cost per year to attend Harvard (and most of the top 10 schools), where the median salary of graduates is $160,000, 88% of grads were in "bar passage required" jobs (and, keep in mind, many of the Harvard grads that are employed in "JD advantage" are there by choice, not for lack of "bar passage required" jobs), and 2% were unemployed seeking. So, as far as my opinion of unranked schools or schools that place very few graduates in jobs - well, I think the cost to attend should be more in line with the likely outcome. I am hoping that the state of the legal market and what many have termed a "crisis in legal education" will force schools to make significant changes to their tuition and financial aid policies. But if consumers are still willing to make the investment, even with access to all this data that is now available, how much incentive will they have? Some schools are responding and making some changes, but they still have a long way to go. I hope we can get there, because a legal education really does provide excellent knowledge and training, and a huge percentage of our population does not have access to legal representation (or to quality legal representation).

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Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by FSK » Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:47 pm

Impressed by the honest answer; here's another tough one.

Thoughts on highly ranked schools that have a huge number (~20%) of school-funded jobs, presumably to "game rankings?"

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Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by wojo98 » Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:55 pm

For an industry that fancies itself sophisticated, law’s recruiting process through OCI is shockingly simplistic and superficial. Interviews are primarily resume based – often avoiding behavioral questions, panel/group interviews, or cases that are the standard in consulting, banking, etc. Do you see this antiquated hiring model changing in Big Law (even to something benignly different, like what Quinn Emanuel’s doing)? If so, how soon? And if not, how do you defend this hiring model (when it seems wasteful and inefficient)?

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Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by nickelanddime » Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:08 pm

Given how much it costs to go to law school and how miserable most biglaw associates are, why do you think anyone should go to law school? When you were dean of admissions, did it bothering you admitting large numbers of students who would stay in the profession just long enough to pay off their loans?

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Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by DrSpaceman » Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:26 pm

How does enlisted, combat veteran service play into admissions decisions? Many vets have reported that they've "outperformed" their numbers, but it's not clear exactly what that means.

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Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by DerekMeeker » Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:45 pm

Ah yes, OCI - another system with flaws. Many discussions are happening among law firms and some law schools about this topic. It is changing, albeit very slowly. A growing number of firms are relying less on OCI for meeting their hiring needs, instead using alternative means to directly connect with students, and relying more on direct candidate submissions and referrals. And I applaud those firms that are taking steps to do so. I also will say that the firm at which I worked - and a growing number of other firms - use behavioral-based interviewing questions, even in the campus interviews. Another small, but increasing shift. So, all I can tell you is that changes are occurring, but how significant those changes will be or how quickly they will happen depends on many factors, such as how much pressure firms would be willing to put on law schools (and NALP) to change the process - or how many firms would be willing to walk away from it (like Quinn) if the process doesn't change.

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Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by RunnerRunner » Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:47 pm

Dean Meeker,

Big fan of Penn, thanks so much for fielding questions! Above, you discussed the misconception that an applicant's chances are solely tied to LSAT/GPA. I was wondering if you could elaborate on the relative weight you would assign each component of an application? Do you view GPA/LSAT, letters of recommendation, personal statements, and resumes/work experience in any particular order of importance? I know its a tough question considering every application is unique, but would appreciate any insight you have!

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Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by Hand » Fri Sep 19, 2014 2:01 pm

Hi Dean Meeker,

Thanks for answering our questions!

I was wondering whether you could shed any light on how the Admissions office looks upon foreign-educated applicants. The received view here on TLS - which comports with the 'it's all about the numbers' refrain - is that it's all about the LSAT for those without a reportable GPA. I assume you're going to say it's more complicated than that, and I would really appreciate it if you could provide some specifics as to just how it is more complicated - for example, (1) do you try to determine the quality of someone's foreign undergraduate institution, (2) what weight is given to the LSAC evaluation (which only states whether the record is superior, above average, average, or below average), (3) are you worried about the language skills of non-native speakers, (5) does the fact that LOR from foreign professors may well not be as over-the-top positive as American LORs can be (I have seen a decent amount of LORs both from US profs and from profs in Europe - they are markedly different) and (5) are foreign applicants in either of these, or other ways at a disadvantage vis-a-vis regular applicants, or not? Again, whatever light you can shed on how foreign applicants are treated, and how this does and does not differ from regular applications, is greatly appreciated!

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Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by KMart » Fri Sep 19, 2014 2:09 pm

Tag. Thank you so much for doing this. It provides a valuable and rare insight into a realm many students don't ever get access to.

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Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by Legaleeze » Fri Sep 19, 2014 2:09 pm

Can you shed light on the subtle things that would get you axed during a CB?

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Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by DerekMeeker » Fri Sep 19, 2014 2:38 pm

Given how much it costs to go to law school and how miserable most biglaw associates are, why do you think anyone should go to law school? When you were dean of admissions, did it bothering you admitting large numbers of students who would stay in the profession just long enough to pay off their loans?

There are many law schools that provide an excellent education, teach and enhance valuable skills (namely writing, but a number of others, such as analytical, critical reading and thinking, and advocacy, time management skills, and many others), and allow students to engage in hands-on training with real clients. And there are many great jobs in the market for graduates with these skills, many lawyers who enjoy what they do, and many who are providing valuable services to clients in every industry and at every level. I think it is more a question to ask oneself: why are you interested in being a lawyer? What are your career goals? How can you obtain those career goals, i.e., which schools can reasonably provide opportunities to reach those career goals, and at what cost to you? It requires a great deal of research, but the good news is, there is far more transparency in terms of cost and placement data than there used to be. I am a big proponent of college graduates working full-time before going to law school. It allows you to gain additional perspective as to your goals, additional time to make sure it is the right (and a worthwhile) decision, and can only make you more marketable when applying for legal jobs later. Law school is not for everyone, and working at a large law firm is certainly not for everyone. Prospective applicants must do diligent research and take the time necessary to determine whether law school is the right fit, and, more importantly, what it is lawyers actually do, and how much they earn (in various sectors, settings, cities, etc.) relative to how many hours they are likely to be working.

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Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by DerekMeeker » Fri Sep 19, 2014 2:53 pm

Thoughts on highly ranked schools that have a huge number (~20%) of school-funded jobs, presumably to "game rankings?"

First, I have to say I have not looked closely at the most recent data on the percentage of school-funded jobs at highly-ranked schools, so I don't know how many are employing their graduates at that high a number or for what duration. Secondly, there is certainly another perspective to this (aside from the presumption that it is to "game the rankings."): schools are taking responsibility by providing at least some form of employment for their graduates. Even if short-term, that employment can be extremely valuable, because it is more challenging to be in the position of waiting for bar exam results and not having a job on your resume while you are engaged in a job search. Also, if those jobs are allowing the graduates to further hone lawyering skills, that, too, is a very good thing. Big firms often say that law students aren't prepared enough for practice, so any job that is providing additional training is an added benefit. (Also, some students just aren't great interviewers, so this time frame during which they are employed by the school also allows the Career Services team to continue to work with them to improve their interviewing skills.) Finally, this information is far more transparent than it used to be, so it puts a spotlight on schools that have a high number of graduates falling into that category - and allows you, as the consumer, to ask them the tough questions on this topic when you are considering whether to attend.

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Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by FSK » Fri Sep 19, 2014 2:57 pm

Also a great answer. Round 3:

Thoughts on the outrageously high tuition levels, current student debt bubble/crisis?

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Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by DerekMeeker » Fri Sep 19, 2014 6:16 pm

How does enlisted, combat veteran service play into admissions decisions? Many vets have reported that they've "outperformed" their numbers, but it's not clear exactly what that means.

In admission discussions you often hear, particularly when reviewing candidates with lower LSAT scores or lower GPAs,"is there other evidence in the application that the candidate will succeed here (at this law school)?" Enlisted combat service is a type of experience that would be considered "other evidence" (i.e., non-numerical evidence) that the candidate would be successful as a law student, because it requires the highest levels of discipline, commitment, focus, judgment, and an ability to handle multiple responsibilities, often under extreme pressure and in extreme circumstances. It also is something that is not particularly common in the law school application pool, so I can assure you it will stand out in an application and will be given thoughtful consideration. As with any other type of unique work or academic experience or sustained commitment, it is important to convey how the experience challenged, taught, inspired, influenced and/or changed you - and how it contributes to your decision to attend law school and to your career goals. SHOW the admissions committee that the experience is an indication of both the perspective you would bring to a classroom and law school community, and an indication that you will succeed (e.g., via the personal statement, a supplemental essay, and/or a letter of recommendation).

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Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by nickelanddime » Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:17 pm

deanmeekerconsulting wrote:Given how much it costs to go to law school and how miserable most biglaw associates are, why do you think anyone should go to law school? When you were dean of admissions, did it bothering you admitting large numbers of students who would stay in the profession just long enough to pay off their loans?

There are many law schools that provide an excellent education, teach and enhance valuable skills (namely writing, but a number of others, such as analytical, critical reading and thinking, and advocacy, time management skills, and many others), and allow students to engage in hands-on training with real clients. And there are many great jobs in the market for graduates with these skills, many lawyers who enjoy what they do, and many who are providing valuable services to clients in every industry and at every level. I think it is more a question to ask oneself: why are you interested in being a lawyer? What are your career goals? How can you obtain those career goals, i.e., which schools can reasonably provide opportunities to reach those career goals, and at what cost to you? It requires a great deal of research, but the good news is, there is far more transparency in terms of cost and placement data than there used to be. I am a big proponent of college graduates working full-time before going to law school. It allows you to gain additional perspective as to your goals, additional time to make sure it is the right (and a worthwhile) decision, and can only make you more marketable when applying for legal jobs later. Law school is not for everyone, and working at a large law firm is certainly not for everyone. Prospective applicants must do diligent research and take the time necessary to determine whether law school is the right fit, and, more importantly, what it is lawyers actually do, and how much they earn (in various sectors, settings, cities, etc.) relative to how many hours they are likely to be working.
I am unsatisfied with that answer, but I don't know that you have the ability to provide a satisfactory one. Nonetheless, thank you for taking questions.

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Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by DerekMeeker » Sat Sep 20, 2014 4:01 pm

Big fan of Penn, thanks so much for fielding questions! Above, you discussed the misconception that an applicant's chances are solely tied to LSAT/GPA. I was wondering if you could elaborate on the relative weight you would assign each component of an application? Do you view GPA/LSAT, letters of recommendation, personal statements, and resumes/work experience in any particular order of importance? I know its a tough question considering every application is unique, but would appreciate any insight you have!

You're very welcome. I'm a big fan of Penn, too; it was such a great community to be a part of.

As to your question, you are correct in saying every application is unique; it really can depend. That said, the GPA and LSAT obviously play a significant role in the admission process. Many studies have shown that, together, they are the best predictor (for most applicants) as to performance in law school, so that is what many law schools will look at first. But it's not about assigning a particular weight to those two components or any other; it is more like viewing pieces of a puzzle. So, think of the GPA and LSAT as starting points. They can immediately give the admissions reader a sense of how numerically competitive the applicant is vis a vis the school's overall pool, and from there the "investigative" process begins (i.e., looking at the rest of the puzzle pieces). So, for example, if I were to see a very high LSAT and very high GPA, on the surface it looks as though the applicant would likely do well in law school, but the process is far from over. The next question I would likely ask is: Were the grades consistent across semesters? What was the applicant's major? (Is it a major for which GPAs are typically lower or typically higher?) What college did he attend? What does that GPA mean at that college (i.e., is there grade inflation or grade deflation; how does that GPA compare to others at the school?) Much of this information is on the LSAC academic summary report. Then I would go even further by reviewing the transcript itself to assess the depth, breadth and rigor of coursework. Even the LSAT score is not necessarily cut and dry. One of the pieces of information on the LSAC academic summary report is the mean LSAT score (as well as a distribution of LSAT scores) for recent LSAT takers who attend or attended the applicant's college. That tells the admissions reader how your LSAT score compares to others from your college. This information is important because, for example, a 168 LSAT could put you in the top 1% of test takers from your college, but a 168 might be the top 10% for another college. So in the former case, it tells the reader that you outperformed almost everyone else from your college who took the test.

Now, keeping with our example of someone who has a "very high" LSAT and "very high" GPA compared to the overall applicant pool, let's say everything else that I just reviewed (grade trends, coursework, etc.) looks great. I might then look at the resume to get the bigger picture of what the applicant has been doing these last several years while earning stellar grades. What activities did she participate in? Any work experience? Leadership? Any unusual accomplishments or awards? I might then move on to the next piece in the puzzle: letters of recommendation. I know the applicant has done very well in her courses, but what do her recommenders tell me about her writing skills? What about her engagement in the classroom? How did she interact with her classmates? How does the applicant compare to others the recommender has taught and that may have gone on to law school? When looking at both the resume and the letters of recommendation, I am looking to see if the substance of the application continues to hold up. If they do, the applicant is still in great shape and looking like a potential admit. If either the resume or letters of recommendation are sparse, that might a raise a suspicion: why would an applicant who has such stellar grades not be able to secure an outstanding recommendation? Or, if the resume is sparse, I might question the applicant's interpersonal skills (employability as a law student/graduate?) or ability to effectively manage multiple responsibilities. In either case, I am going to look to the essays to either corroborate the substance of the file so far, or to perhaps allay concerns I might have about a light resume or sparse recommendations (though sparse letters are tough to overcome!). The personal statement and supplemental essays serve a crucial purpose in the process: they are a measure of the applicant's writing ability (so important for law school!); they provide a better sense of the perspective or voice the applicant will bring to the classroom and law school community; they could provide a sense as to the applicant's maturity and judgment, and whether he is ready for law school; they could convey why the applicant is interested in law school, what his career goals are, and why he is interested in my school in particular - all measures of preparedness, fit, ability to communicate effectively and articulately, etc. I might then look at the LSAT writing sample to see how the applicant's writing in that scenario (timed, under pressure, specific prompt, etc.) compares to his writing in the essays. (Now this response is getting quite lengthy, so I am going to try to wrap it up!) The point I am trying to make is, it is difficult to assign a particular weight to any one component because each plays an important part in a rather broad expedition. Now, in the case of a "higher LSAT" and "lower GPA," I am still going to go on the same expedition, but my questions - or expectations - might be a bit different. Because I am seeing a lower GPA, I am going to be looking for "other evidence" that the applicant can perform well academically in a rigorous program for a number of consecutive years. A high LSAT alone cannot tell me that. It is up to the applicant to make sure that "other evidence" is part of the application and clear to me. Perhaps there were circumstances that affected the GPA (e.g., a heavy work schedule because the applicant had to pay 100% of her college expenses; maybe the GPA was from several years ago, and since then the applicant has had a demanding job with a high level of responsibility or one that required a high level of analytical skills, critical reading, or writing, etc.). What if both LSAT and GPA are in the lower range? In that case, the applicant's burden becomes greater. The admissions reader is going to want to see "other evidence" that the applicant has the analytical, critical reading and reasoning, and writing skills and can do rigorous academic work over a sustained period of time. The letters of recommendation and resume (i.e., experience) can play a crucial role in this case (and possibly addenda to explain circumstances that may have affected the LSAT or GPA). The question could also become: has the applicant overcome significant challenges or obstacles? Has she had significant achievements in other areas of her life? Does she have an unusually compelling story or unique perspective that is not represented or under-represented in the school?

In summary, the admissions committee will always be evaluating whether an applicant has the potential to succeed at their law school - and then looking to see how he will fit into the class and law school community, i.e., how he will contribute - the perspective he would add, the contribution he would make to the community or profession, etc. In the reviewing of every file, the committee is thinking about the overall goal of putting together a class of individuals from diverse backgrounds and with diverse perspectives (in every aspect) who will engage, challenge and teach one another.

I hope that gives you a better sense of how the process works and how each component fits into it.

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Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by DerekMeeker » Sat Sep 20, 2014 4:26 pm

I was wondering whether you could shed any light on how the Admissions office looks upon foreign-educated applicants. The received view here on TLS - which comports with the 'it's all about the numbers' refrain - is that it's all about the LSAT for those without a reportable GPA. I assume you're going to say it's more complicated than that, and I would really appreciate it if you could provide some specifics as to just how it is more complicated - for example, (1) do you try to determine the quality of someone's foreign undergraduate institution, (2) what weight is given to the LSAC evaluation (which only states whether the record is superior, above average, average, or below average), (3) are you worried about the language skills of non-native speakers, (5) does the fact that LOR from foreign professors may well not be as over-the-top positive as American LORs can be (I have seen a decent amount of LORs both from US profs and from profs in Europe - they are markedly different) and (5) are foreign applicants in either of these, or other ways at a disadvantage vis-a-vis regular applicants, or not? Again, whatever light you can shed on how foreign applicants are treated, and how this does and does not differ from regular applications, is greatly appreciated!

Hi, there. As you will see above, I provided a lengthy response to give a clearer picture as to how the admissions review process - the "investigative process" as I termed it - works and how each component plays a part in it. The same principles are going to apply for foreign-educated applicants, i.e., the committee will be asking the same questions, but they may have to go about getting the answers a little differently and perhaps dig a bit further. The overarching questions are always the same: can this applicant perform well at this school (is there evidence in the file that supports that) and will she bring a valuable perspective to the classroom and law school community? And the burden is on the applicant to fill in missing pieces of information, i.e., to anticipate questions and provide the answers. Yes, the committee will absolutely assess the quality of a foreign undergraduate institution. Now, keep in mind, I am speaking from the perspective of having worked at a top 10 school. Applicants who are foreign-educated are more common at the top schools, and many of the admissions deans and faculty at these schools have been there for many years. They are experts. They are already familiar with many of the schools. They know what to look for. They know that the tone of LORs from foreign professors may be different. Aside from that, the top law schools all have robust LLM programs and solid international programs in place; thus, there are resources (namely, faculty) to provide insight as to the quality of an applicant's undergraduate institution or program, his language skills and writing ability, and LORs. An admissions officer is not going to make a decision based on LSAT and/or the LSAC evaluation alone. These applications get the same thorough review, so they are not at a disadvantage. But going back to my point about the burden being on the applicant to anticipate questions and provide answers: your recommenders could certainly comment on the rigor of your program and/or quality of your school. You may need to guide your recommenders a bit in this regard; be proactive and ask them to include that. You could also provide information in an addendum that sheds additional light on your academic record, language skills, etc. Of course the essays you submit will play a pivotal role in showing how well you write and how effectively you articulate the perspective you would bring, your academic interests, and career goals.
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Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by Irish11 » Sat Sep 20, 2014 4:32 pm

Dean Meeker,

Thanks for starting this thread. It's already very informative.

.
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Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by Gonoles6 » Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:07 pm

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Last edited by Gonoles6 on Thu Sep 25, 2014 6:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

Now there's a charge.
Just kidding ... it's still FREE!


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