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Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned."
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MPT Help
Hi all,
I am prepping for the upcoming Feb 19 NY Bar Exam (having failed the July 18 NY Bar Exam).
I am struggling with the PT's, particularly with timing. I only got 35% for the PTs on the July 18 NY Bar. I took Barbri (currently on their free repeat), have followed there advice on how to attach the PTs, read multiple other books (have Mary Gallagher's book), and no matter how many practice PTs I do, I just can't seem to be able be able to process/digest the information that fast, let alone organize things and then finally answer down on paper in time. I find I am about 45-55 min and just starting to comprehend all the info and start to try to piece together an outline, but then end up just having to write otherwise I won't have anything on the screen to submit.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
I am prepping for the upcoming Feb 19 NY Bar Exam (having failed the July 18 NY Bar Exam).
I am struggling with the PT's, particularly with timing. I only got 35% for the PTs on the July 18 NY Bar. I took Barbri (currently on their free repeat), have followed there advice on how to attach the PTs, read multiple other books (have Mary Gallagher's book), and no matter how many practice PTs I do, I just can't seem to be able be able to process/digest the information that fast, let alone organize things and then finally answer down on paper in time. I find I am about 45-55 min and just starting to comprehend all the info and start to try to piece together an outline, but then end up just having to write otherwise I won't have anything on the screen to submit.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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- Posts: 15
- Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:10 pm
Re: MPT Help
I am a first time candidate so you have to take this with a tablespoon of salt, but I seem to be doing okay in my practice MPTs.
First thing I would say is don't stick to the Barbri method if it's not working for you. I practice overseas and I have my own method of looking at materials. It's not something I ever consciously developed, it's just what comes intuitively to me. When I tried applying the Barbri method, I would run out of time and become confused. So my first piece of advice is just (i) understand what you need to produce (perhaps by looking at model answers) and then (ii) read the materials however feels right. You are probably going to want to read the memo first then the library, but it's up to you.
Secondly, whether you have to draft a memo, a letter or whatever, it's always a good thing (in legal practice, at least) to have the following in this order:
Introduction
Law
Facts
Analysis
I understand this gets taught in American academia as CIRAC or something like that. Again it's just something I know as "the way it's done in practice". So as you are reading you should be filling out the Law section anyway. Literally just put a header saying Relevant law and then (i) summarise the ruling of each case you are given, and (ii) copy in the statutes you are given (within reason - if it's two pages of black letter law then just copy in the statute's name and section number and add the key textual provisions later).
Then the next section is Facts. Easy again. As you read the factual materials you are given, just write a short sentence for each fact:
Joe lived in Franklin with his wife and two daughters. They lived on the third floor. On the night of February 1 2019 a fire broke out. Joe and his daughters escaped but the apartment was damaged. The fire was caused by faulty wiring. Joe says the wiring was maintained by his landlord, Julie. The landlord says the wiring was installed by the previous tenant, Jane. Joe wants to sue Julie or Jane. Joe would prefer to sue Julie because Jane is a bum.
You have now written 2/3 of your essay and you have only just finished your reading! You also now have a summary of the relevant law and facts right in front of you on a single page. Now you have to perform a legal analysis. I don't know how to teach that - basically just see if the facts match the law and, if so, what does the law say should happen?
I find by doing this I get to the end with a good 10/15 mins to spare. I then go back through the materials to see if there is any material I have not used. Finally, I tidy up the answer.
I've written this post on an Android and I apparently have fat thumbs. I'm not going to tidy it up because it's late in London and I should sleep, but, yeah, I hope that helps!
First thing I would say is don't stick to the Barbri method if it's not working for you. I practice overseas and I have my own method of looking at materials. It's not something I ever consciously developed, it's just what comes intuitively to me. When I tried applying the Barbri method, I would run out of time and become confused. So my first piece of advice is just (i) understand what you need to produce (perhaps by looking at model answers) and then (ii) read the materials however feels right. You are probably going to want to read the memo first then the library, but it's up to you.
Secondly, whether you have to draft a memo, a letter or whatever, it's always a good thing (in legal practice, at least) to have the following in this order:
Introduction
Law
Facts
Analysis
I understand this gets taught in American academia as CIRAC or something like that. Again it's just something I know as "the way it's done in practice". So as you are reading you should be filling out the Law section anyway. Literally just put a header saying Relevant law and then (i) summarise the ruling of each case you are given, and (ii) copy in the statutes you are given (within reason - if it's two pages of black letter law then just copy in the statute's name and section number and add the key textual provisions later).
Then the next section is Facts. Easy again. As you read the factual materials you are given, just write a short sentence for each fact:
Joe lived in Franklin with his wife and two daughters. They lived on the third floor. On the night of February 1 2019 a fire broke out. Joe and his daughters escaped but the apartment was damaged. The fire was caused by faulty wiring. Joe says the wiring was maintained by his landlord, Julie. The landlord says the wiring was installed by the previous tenant, Jane. Joe wants to sue Julie or Jane. Joe would prefer to sue Julie because Jane is a bum.
You have now written 2/3 of your essay and you have only just finished your reading! You also now have a summary of the relevant law and facts right in front of you on a single page. Now you have to perform a legal analysis. I don't know how to teach that - basically just see if the facts match the law and, if so, what does the law say should happen?
I find by doing this I get to the end with a good 10/15 mins to spare. I then go back through the materials to see if there is any material I have not used. Finally, I tidy up the answer.
I've written this post on an Android and I apparently have fat thumbs. I'm not going to tidy it up because it's late in London and I should sleep, but, yeah, I hope that helps!
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- Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:12 pm
Re: MPT Help
Thanks - appreciate the response and very helpful indeed.
I done a couple of MPT's since your post, taking into account your advice (i always start with getting down the basic skeleton (letter format, headings etc..), but i am still struggling to get it done in time i.e.i still get to about an 60-70 minutes in and i have only just summarized the cases, any statutes - and by this stage (depending on the MPT) i haven't quite pieced together all of the relevant provisions of the statutes needed).
I appreciate that my challenges are most likely something that is unique to me (i.e. slow reader, takes longer to digest information), but just want to see if i am gravely missing something here. FYI i did not complete my law degree in the US (nor do i have any law school/post grad law training in the US).
I done a couple of MPT's since your post, taking into account your advice (i always start with getting down the basic skeleton (letter format, headings etc..), but i am still struggling to get it done in time i.e.i still get to about an 60-70 minutes in and i have only just summarized the cases, any statutes - and by this stage (depending on the MPT) i haven't quite pieced together all of the relevant provisions of the statutes needed).
I appreciate that my challenges are most likely something that is unique to me (i.e. slow reader, takes longer to digest information), but just want to see if i am gravely missing something here. FYI i did not complete my law degree in the US (nor do i have any law school/post grad law training in the US).
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- Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:37 am
Re: MPT Help
My advice is not to read the cases but only skim them till you get to the point where court applies the rule/law/legal test. Then you need to pull out of the cases is the rule/law and apply it. Skimming the facts in the cases should be enough for distinguishing the cases from the case in the task, and will spare you a lot of time. I prefer to read the last case in time first be it usually tends to summarizes the earlier cases.bendowd wrote:Thanks - appreciate the response and very helpful indeed.
I done a couple of MPT's since your post, taking into account your advice (i always start with getting down the basic skeleton (letter format, headings etc..), but i am still struggling to get it done in time i.e.i still get to about an 60-70 minutes in and i have only just summarized the cases, any statutes - and by this stage (depending on the MPT) i haven't quite pieced together all of the relevant provisions of the statutes needed).
I appreciate that my challenges are most likely something that is unique to me (i.e. slow reader, takes longer to digest information), but just want to see if i am gravely missing something here. FYI i did not complete my law degree in the US (nor do i have any law school/post grad law training in the US).
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- Posts: 163
- Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:11 pm
Re: MPT Help
There are two types of MPTs in my vast experience of four, those that give you your tasks, and those that refer to the statue. I started with Gallagher's book too, but I found the process unnecessary and time consuming. The MPT has been dumbed down, so there's a few things they are looking for: Follow the format; follow the instructions; clearly state what is not relevant where they will see it and give you points; point out what's precedent or just merely persuasive, keep things neat with nice headings, blah, blah, blah.bendowd wrote:Hi all,
I am prepping for the upcoming Feb 19 NY Bar Exam (having failed the July 18 NY Bar Exam).
I am struggling with the PT's, particularly with timing. I only got 35% for the PTs on the July 18 NY Bar. I took Barbri (currently on their free repeat), have followed there advice on how to attach the PTs, read multiple other books (have Mary Gallagher's book), and no matter how many practice PTs I do, I just can't seem to be able be able to process/digest the information that fast, let alone organize things and then finally answer down on paper in time. I find I am about 45-55 min and just starting to comprehend all the info and start to try to piece together an outline, but then end up just having to write otherwise I won't have anything on the screen to submit.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
If they give you a statute, start with that. That's also going to give you your headings. The cases will relate to both heading or separate headings. Oops, running out of time, so push to tie in the other materials in your arguments. Five minutes to clean up the first page and you are done. In most of the MPTs I've seen, the statute rules them all. Break down the statute into its parts, and satisfy each element and you will be ok.
Everybody is in the same boat, and you sound like you are actually trying to produce something good. You can't, there's no time, unless your jurisdiction, like mine, allows you to allocate the four hours any way you want, and then you just resolve to give the four essays 25 minutes rather than 30, and your MPT goes up to and hour and 50 minutes, rather than an hour and a half. That's my solution.
PS: READ the grader's scale. A six is a nice piece of work, nothing spectacular but you followed the instructions in the right format and you wrote well. A five is flawed in every category, but it's not a disaster. A four is AVERAGE and it's a steaming pile of dog vomit. Do not believe me, go pull up the description and you will sleep like a baby. Most of your competition isn't even practicing this, they are panicking. I am shooting for a five. If I get a four, it's ok by me. It's going to be ok.
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Re: MPT Help
Thanks for the replies - very helpful.
Yes i think i am getting bogged down in the cases trying to summarize all facts & extract too many statements from the cases. I think now that reading the sample answers Barbri - examiners points sheets are too thorough and create an expectation that you need to get all of that.
Yes i think i am getting bogged down in the cases trying to summarize all facts & extract too many statements from the cases. I think now that reading the sample answers Barbri - examiners points sheets are too thorough and create an expectation that you need to get all of that.
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Re: MPT Help
You inspired me to go back and look at my 60 cal PT and compare it to the model answer. Mine legit had VERBATIM headings and very similar structure otherwise. After reading several times, I notice that I had an intro paragraph that basically stated a relief requested, and was a little less than a page shorter. I also had one typo.
This is pretty disturbing considering that there was like a 20-40 point difference in mine and the model. So, it may be pretty capricious. I guess write more? Christ.
This is pretty disturbing considering that there was like a 20-40 point difference in mine and the model. So, it may be pretty capricious. I guess write more? Christ.
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- Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:51 am
Re: MPT Help
Here are the general principals to always take with you for the PT (WITHOUT FAIL).
1. Make sure you're answering the prompt/question/instruction.
2. The cases they give you. Figure out which one(s) is just trying to give you the law and/or nuances. These are usually the shorter ones. There has to be at least one where it has a lot of comparable facts for you to make comparisons/distinctions (see #3).
3. One of the more common problems is that takers are not properly analyzng the cases. The one case that has a lot of facts for you to compare will only be useful if you use it correctly. Sure you might get lucky and the facts are directly onn point, but this is likely rare. there's that one point that you must identify and distinguish. "in this 1955 case, the court ruled this way because of XYZ facts. Here, however, is different. We don't have XYZ, we have ABC. Arguably ABC does not align with the policy reasons the court emphasized in the 1955 case with the XYZ facts. As such, this Court should rule differently."
4. Yes headings are important. Please take the time to outline. This helps with #1. Read the instrudtion. read the library. outline your answer before actually writing.
1. Make sure you're answering the prompt/question/instruction.
2. The cases they give you. Figure out which one(s) is just trying to give you the law and/or nuances. These are usually the shorter ones. There has to be at least one where it has a lot of comparable facts for you to make comparisons/distinctions (see #3).
3. One of the more common problems is that takers are not properly analyzng the cases. The one case that has a lot of facts for you to compare will only be useful if you use it correctly. Sure you might get lucky and the facts are directly onn point, but this is likely rare. there's that one point that you must identify and distinguish. "in this 1955 case, the court ruled this way because of XYZ facts. Here, however, is different. We don't have XYZ, we have ABC. Arguably ABC does not align with the policy reasons the court emphasized in the 1955 case with the XYZ facts. As such, this Court should rule differently."
4. Yes headings are important. Please take the time to outline. This helps with #1. Read the instrudtion. read the library. outline your answer before actually writing.