THEMIS DISCUSSION - FEBRUARY 2019

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Smiddywesson

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Re: THEMIS DISCUSSION - FEBRUARY 2019

Postby Smiddywesson » Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:54 pm

DepressedWorkerBee wrote:July 2019 Bar taker here - Themis opens up for us tomorrow!

I’ve got a really slow last semester - so I wanted to try and get started a bit early - not diving head into the whole course (want to avoid burnout), but wanted to start a few things now slowly.

Any advice for how to use Themis and get started before the suggest start day of May 20? Also have S&T, Critical Flash Cards, and Adaptibar.

Appreciate any advice!


I'll do better than give you my advice, because my advice was wrong in the past and I paid for it. I'll give you the advice of Susan Case, former Director of Testing for the NCBE. She was quoted in 2013 as saying all the law you need to pass the MBE is contained in the four OPE Exams. I'd add the two study aids to that list, but that's just my opinion. Since the time of that interview, the NCBE continues to have those exams on its site (hint), and revised them in 2017 (double hint). Now they are revising them again and releasing them on March 25th in their learning platform (double hint, a winky, winky, and a slap upside the head). Take the hint. Wait until Monday and sign up.

On the other hand, those tests are not equators. Over one third of the test (60 questions) are equators, questions designed to be hard and used for comparison purposes with other test groups (30 questions from last February and 30 from July). The NCBE materials will not be equators, you won't find them in Themis, Adaptibar or BarMax,they are never released. In fact, the majority of the questions on these platforms are not recommended by the NCBE. The law gets old, the format changes, and what is tested drifts. Where these programs excel is in giving you the OPEs and the Study Aids, and you don't need a middleman for that. Trust me, I spent a year doing them.

Take a red magic marker to your outlines and cross out anything that's not on the Subject Matter Outline. For example, you don't want to study Riparian Rights, they are not tested. So if you want to be fully prepared for the exam, do what the examiners say, use the NCBE platform, and then find a substitute for these difficult questions. That would be Barbri and Kaplan. No one's saying what's in the secret sauce, but if you find any other source of questions whose customers routinely report much higher final scores than their practice scores, differences that can't be accounted for by the scale, let me in on it.

lawgirl3521

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Re: THEMIS DISCUSSION - FEBRUARY 2019

Postby lawgirl3521 » Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:06 pm

lawgirl3521 wrote:
DepressedWorkerBee wrote:July 2019 Bar taker here - Themis opens up for us tomorrow!

I’ve got a really slow last semester - so I wanted to try and get started a bit early - not diving head into the whole course (want to avoid burnout), but wanted to start a few things now slowly.

Any advice for how to use Themis and get started before the suggest start day of May 20? Also have S&T, Critical Flash Cards, and Adaptibar.

Appreciate any advice!


Hi there - I personally found the Themis lectures to be useless and a waste of time, although I am basically a 100% visual learner. I would recommend concentrating on the Themis final review outlines, Adaptibar, and Critical Pass - I consistently scored in the low 80s on the MBE by the end using only CP and Adaptibar for MBE.

I did use S&T a bit, but didn't find it particularly helpful for my learning style, although I know tons of people loved it. I did, however, find the JD Advising MBE Guide extremely helpful for nuanced topics - and they guarantee a 7 point increase after going through the guide (which they equate to 1 extra point per MBE subject); I actually saw a 9 point increase after going through the guide, so it was def worth it for me. I also used Studicata attack outlines for the MEE topics and felt extremely well prepared on essays - never scored lower than a 7/10 on Themis graded essays and was able to score 3 10/10s before the actual bar exam. I also never made any of my own outlines, but I didn't outline during law school either - it's just not my thing, I prefer flashcards.

Also, I was frequently told that the MPT was no big deal and not to waste time on it, but I personally did the opposite and am glad I did. I only ended up writing out 2 full MPTs on my own, but I also did the Themis graded MPT - so I guess 3 full MPTs in all. The graded Themis MPT is where I scored one of my 10/10s. I worked my ass off to grab points on the essays because I don't trust practice MBE scores or OPE scores. For an MPT study method, I would suggest looking over every single type/combo/structure of MPT you can get your hands on and then outlining at least 20 from beginning to end. I was so glad I put in the time I did on the MPT because when the actual bar exam rolled around, I had developed a dedicated method of organizing the loads of information so that I was able to fit in all of the fact/arguments I wanted to include and still had about 3 minutes to spare to revise on each question. I looked at it like every single point counts, so grab them wherever and whenever you can.

Overall Themis was great, imo. My best piece of advice would be to listen to yourself and stick to how you learn best - tune out the noise on what you should or shouldn't do and just trust yourself and don't look back. You've got this.



I forgot to mention that I thought the actual real MBE on bar exam day was exactly like the Adaptibar practice questions - I saw several that were literally word for word exactly the same - which are just free points IMO. I don't think the big testing companies, ie Themis, Barbri, Kaplan, have questions that are as close to the real MBE as I saw on Adaptibar - I've used both Themis and Barbri (for another JX) and they were not nearly as similar as Adaptibar IMO - just my two cents :)

Smiddywesson

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Re: THEMIS DISCUSSION - FEBRUARY 2019

Postby Smiddywesson » Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:14 am

lawgirl3521 wrote:
lawgirl3521 wrote:
DepressedWorkerBee wrote:July 2019 Bar taker here - Themis opens up for us tomorrow!

I’ve got a really slow last semester - so I wanted to try and get started a bit early - not diving head into the whole course (want to avoid burnout), but wanted to start a few things now slowly.

Any advice for how to use Themis and get started before the suggest start day of May 20? Also have S&T, Critical Flash Cards, and Adaptibar.

Appreciate any advice!


Hi there - I personally found the Themis lectures to be useless and a waste of time, although I am basically a 100% visual learner. I would recommend concentrating on the Themis final review outlines, Adaptibar, and Critical Pass - I consistently scored in the low 80s on the MBE by the end using only CP and Adaptibar for MBE.

I did use S&T a bit, but didn't find it particularly helpful for my learning style, although I know tons of people loved it. I did, however, find the JD Advising MBE Guide extremely helpful for nuanced topics - and they guarantee a 7 point increase after going through the guide (which they equate to 1 extra point per MBE subject); I actually saw a 9 point increase after going through the guide, so it was def worth it for me. I also used Studicata attack outlines for the MEE topics and felt extremely well prepared on essays - never scored lower than a 7/10 on Themis graded essays and was able to score 3 10/10s before the actual bar exam. I also never made any of my own outlines, but I didn't outline during law school either - it's just not my thing, I prefer flashcards.

Also, I was frequently told that the MPT was no big deal and not to waste time on it, but I personally did the opposite and am glad I did. I only ended up writing out 2 full MPTs on my own, but I also did the Themis graded MPT - so I guess 3 full MPTs in all. The graded Themis MPT is where I scored one of my 10/10s. I worked my ass off to grab points on the essays because I don't trust practice MBE scores or OPE scores. For an MPT study method, I would suggest looking over every single type/combo/structure of MPT you can get your hands on and then outlining at least 20 from beginning to end. I was so glad I put in the time I did on the MPT because when the actual bar exam rolled around, I had developed a dedicated method of organizing the loads of information so that I was able to fit in all of the fact/arguments I wanted to include and still had about 3 minutes to spare to revise on each question. I looked at it like every single point counts, so grab them wherever and whenever you can.

Overall Themis was great, imo. My best piece of advice would be to listen to yourself and stick to how you learn best - tune out the noise on what you should or shouldn't do and just trust yourself and don't look back. You've got this.



I forgot to mention that I thought the actual real MBE on bar exam day was exactly like the Adaptibar practice questions - I saw several that were literally word for word exactly the same - which are just free points IMO. I don't think the big testing companies, ie Themis, Barbri, Kaplan, have questions that are as close to the real MBE as I saw on Adaptibar - I've used both Themis and Barbri (for another JX) and they were not nearly as similar as Adaptibar IMO - just my two cents :)


I second your observation, some of the questions were almost verbatim from Adaptibar. However, there's a tradeoff in selecting a program. The MBE is divided into easy questions, questions of moderate difficulty, and hard questions. Inasmuch as there are 60 equator questions with the added requirement of "discernment" we can surmise that all the hard questions are equators (60/175 is over one third, so there's no room for any additional hard questions). Equators are never released. You will not find examples of them on Adaptibar, Themis, or BarMax. You therefore have to realize that if all you do is study the released questions, you are only looking at a representation of 2/3 of the actual test. The more difficult bar review generated questions, such as those offered by Barbri and Kaplan, take a shot at approximating the more difficult equator questions. Their method isn't better, but it fills a needed hole in the preparation process and it shows in their results, their students uniformly see a kicker in the actual results vs. their practice results. Which is best? Logic tells us that both are best. If you do all Adaptibar as I did, you are not exposing yourself to one third of the test. If all you do is Kaplan or Barbri, you are not getting that familiarity with the easy and middle difficulty phraseology and trickery. I didn't know any better when I prepared, so all I did was Adaptibar. Now you know. 8)

inyourhonor07

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Re: THEMIS DISCUSSION - FEBRUARY 2019

Postby inyourhonor07 » Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:14 pm

Passed IL first try. Passing scores are not released here.

Here's my take on preparing for the bar exam:

I worked full time and my practice scores were awful. Whatever you do, DO NOT GIVE UP. You'll see stellar practice scores on here that are way better than yours, but that doesn't mean you will fail. You'll see in my post history that I had some PQ scores in the 40s on some of the specific subject PQs. Tbh, you won't have a good grasp on most of the subjects until you start doing the mixed PQs or you've done at least 1000 PQs. For me, my scores didn't improve a lot until I started hitting flash cards hard and reading every rule I missed or guessed every night before bed.

MEE:
I probably spent 95% of my time on the MBE and 5% on Illinois essays, MEE, and MPTs and I would do the same thing again. Most of the essays are taken from the MBE subjects, so you'll get more bang for your buck doing something similar. I wrote all the graded essays and maybe 3 non-graded essays. Instead of wasting time writing non-graded essays, I made a table for each MEE and IEE topic. One column was the MEE topic and the other column had the rules I copied and pasted from the Essay PQs. I reviewed them heavily in the last 2 weeks and made note cards for some of them. You NEED to read through the Tenacious MEE guide that is stickied to this bar discussion forum. It's beautiful and I credit it to feeling really confident in my secured transactions essay. If you have a significant other, try to explain to them how to attach and perfect a security interest. If you can't describe it without having to look at your outline, you don't know the material.

MBE:
I wish I had started doing my own note cards earlier. Critical Pass flashcards have way too much information on them for anyone to memorize. I also wish I had looked up the subtopics that appear the most on the MBE. For example, negligence usually comprises of 50% of the Torts questions. You need to make note cards for that section and go at them HARD. Those are easy points imo. Also, the Civ Pro questions in your commercial bar prep program will be easier than the ones you see on the bar exam. You need to know the nuance aspects of specific and general jurisdiction (usually 50% of the Civ Pro questions on the bar), when permissive and compulsive counterclaims are allowed, and joinder of parties.

I never wrote my own outlines because I worked full-time and it felt like a waste of time, but if that's how you learn then go for it. That's what I did in law school, but I knew it wouldn't be helpful for the bar because there's just too much nuance. It probably goes without saying, but it is not enough to have a big picture grasp on the subjects. At some point, you need to memorize elements.

You will feel like you failed when you walk out. I cried so hard both nights because I 100% knew that I failed. This is normal. It will pass and so will you.

Good luck future TLS bar takers!

Psmith0717

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Re: THEMIS DISCUSSION - FEBRUARY 2019

Postby Psmith0717 » Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:22 pm

Congratulations!!!!

tinabelcher

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Re: THEMIS DISCUSSION - FEBRUARY 2019

Postby tinabelcher » Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:57 pm

I passed IL on the second try!

This has been many years coming and I am SO thankful for Themis! I couldn't have been happier with the program and the support they offered. It made all the difference for me. I was self-study last time with Adaptibar, and Themis gave me everything I needed to pass (while being a full-time single parent)! :D

inyourhonor07

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Re: THEMIS DISCUSSION - FEBRUARY 2019

Postby inyourhonor07 » Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:48 am

Psmith0717 wrote:Congratulations!!!!


Thanks, Psmith! When do you find out?

Psmith0717

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Re: THEMIS DISCUSSION - FEBRUARY 2019

Postby Psmith0717 » Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:39 am

inyourhonor07 wrote:
Psmith0717 wrote:Congratulations!!!!


Thanks, Psmith! When do you find out?


Either this week or next??? Not sure, there is a delay since NC switched to UBE.

Smiddywesson

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Re: THEMIS DISCUSSION - FEBRUARY 2019

Postby Smiddywesson » Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:29 pm

inyourhonor07 wrote:Passed IL first try. Passing scores are not released here.

Here's my take on preparing for the bar exam:

I worked full time and my practice scores were awful. Whatever you do, DO NOT GIVE UP. You'll see stellar practice scores on here that are way better than yours, but that doesn't mean you will fail. You'll see in my post history that I had some PQ scores in the 40s on some of the specific subject PQs. Tbh, you won't have a good grasp on most of the subjects until you start doing the mixed PQs or you've done at least 1000 PQs. For me, my scores didn't improve a lot until I started hitting flash cards hard and reading every rule I missed or guessed every night before bed.

MEE:
I probably spent 95% of my time on the MBE and 5% on Illinois essays, MEE, and MPTs and I would do the same thing again. Most of the essays are taken from the MBE subjects, so you'll get more bang for your buck doing something similar. I wrote all the graded essays and maybe 3 non-graded essays. Instead of wasting time writing non-graded essays, I made a table for each MEE and IEE topic. One column was the MEE topic and the other column had the rules I copied and pasted from the Essay PQs. I reviewed them heavily in the last 2 weeks and made note cards for some of them. You NEED to read through the Tenacious MEE guide that is stickied to this bar discussion forum. It's beautiful and I credit it to feeling really confident in my secured transactions essay. If you have a significant other, try to explain to them how to attach and perfect a security interest. If you can't describe it without having to look at your outline, you don't know the material.

MBE:
I wish I had started doing my own note cards earlier. Critical Pass flashcards have way too much information on them for anyone to memorize. I also wish I had looked up the subtopics that appear the most on the MBE. For example, negligence usually comprises of 50% of the Torts questions. You need to make note cards for that section and go at them HARD. Those are easy points imo. Also, the Civ Pro questions in your commercial bar prep program will be easier than the ones you see on the bar exam. You need to know the nuance aspects of specific and general jurisdiction (usually 50% of the Civ Pro questions on the bar), when permissive and compulsive counterclaims are allowed, and joinder of parties.

I never wrote my own outlines because I worked full-time and it felt like a waste of time, but if that's how you learn then go for it. That's what I did in law school, but I knew it wouldn't be helpful for the bar because there's just too much nuance. It probably goes without saying, but it is not enough to have a big picture grasp on the subjects. At some point, you need to memorize elements.

You will feel like you failed when you walk out. I cried so hard both nights because I 100% knew that I failed. This is normal. It will pass and so will you.

Good luck future TLS bar takers!


Yes, I bet the farm on the MBE too, and felt like I pretty much nailed it when I walked out of the room. The problem is doubt creeps in and now I'm a nervous wreck. The funny part is I am 57, I have a full time job and a pension waiting for me. I don't NEED to pass, I can take the bar as many times as I want. I can't imagine what you guys are going through with so much on the line if I, who has nothing to lose, feel so filled with dread. Good luck everyone, and contrats to you passers, well done!

Psmith0717

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Re: THEMIS DISCUSSION - FEBRUARY 2019

Postby Psmith0717 » Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:15 pm

inyourhonor07 wrote:
Psmith0717 wrote:Congratulations!!!!


Thanks, Psmith! When do you find out?


Just found out I passed in NC!!!

inyourhonor07

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Re: THEMIS DISCUSSION - FEBRUARY 2019

Postby inyourhonor07 » Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:15 pm

Psmith0717 wrote:
inyourhonor07 wrote:
Psmith0717 wrote:Congratulations!!!!


Thanks, Psmith! When do you find out?


Just found out I passed in NC!!!


YESSSSSS! Now go celebrate all weekend! You deserve it!

Psmith0717

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Re: THEMIS DISCUSSION - FEBRUARY 2019

Postby Psmith0717 » Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:13 pm

inyourhonor07 wrote:
Psmith0717 wrote:
inyourhonor07 wrote:
Psmith0717 wrote:Congratulations!!!!


Thanks, Psmith! When do you find out?


Just found out I passed in NC!!!


YESSSSSS! Now go celebrate all weekend! You deserve it!


Thank you! I will! Happy for both of us!!! Good luck to everyone still waiting!

yennem

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Re: THEMIS DISCUSSION - FEBRUARY 2019

Postby yennem » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:33 am

Florida scores coming out on Monday 4/15 :shock:

yennem

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Re: THEMIS DISCUSSION - FEBRUARY 2019

Postby yennem » Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:12 am

yennem wrote:Florida scores coming out on Monday 4/15 :shock:

I passed :)

lawgirl3521

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Re: THEMIS DISCUSSION - FEBRUARY 2019

Postby lawgirl3521 » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:30 am

Missouri drops today. Best of luck to all takers and retakers.

Smiddywesson

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Re: THEMIS DISCUSSION - FEBRUARY 2019

Postby Smiddywesson » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:46 am

yennem wrote:
yennem wrote:Florida scores coming out on Monday 4/15 :shock:

I passed :)


Congrats! :D

yennem

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Re: THEMIS DISCUSSION - FEBRUARY 2019

Postby yennem » Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:07 pm

Smiddywesson wrote:
yennem wrote:
yennem wrote:Florida scores coming out on Monday 4/15 :shock:

I passed :)


Congrats! :D


Thank you - 143 MBE | 140 FL

Lancair

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Re: THEMIS DISCUSSION - FEBRUARY 2019

Postby Lancair » Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:08 pm

Passed the MPRE today - now just patiently waiting for NY scores to drop...

lawgirl3521

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Re: THEMIS DISCUSSION - FEBRUARY 2019

Postby lawgirl3521 » Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:57 pm

Passed MO today :D
291 total
147 essay
144 MBE

lawgirl3521

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Re: THEMIS DISCUSSION - FEBRUARY 2019

Postby lawgirl3521 » Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:01 am

yennem wrote:
Smiddywesson wrote:
yennem wrote:
yennem wrote:Florida scores coming out on Monday 4/15 :shock:

I passed :)


Congrats! :D


Thank you - 143 MBE | 140 FL

Way to go!!!

Houstonttt

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Re: THEMIS DISCUSSION - FEBRUARY 2019

Postby Houstonttt » Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:04 am

lawgirl3521 wrote:Passed MO today :D
291 total
147 essay
144 MBE

congrats!! do you remeber your practice score percentage?? and how did you feel after leaving MBE??

Houstonttt

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Re: THEMIS DISCUSSION - FEBRUARY 2019

Postby Houstonttt » Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:05 am

yennem wrote:
Smiddywesson wrote:
yennem wrote:
yennem wrote:Florida scores coming out on Monday 4/15 :shock:

I passed :)


Congrats! :D


Thank you - 143 MBE | 140 FL

congrats!!! do you remebr what was your practice score?/

lawgirl3521

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Re: THEMIS DISCUSSION - FEBRUARY 2019

Postby lawgirl3521 » Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:36 pm

Houstonttt wrote:
lawgirl3521 wrote:Passed MO today :D
291 total
147 essay
144 MBE

congrats!! do you remeber your practice score percentage?? and how did you feel after leaving MBE??



Thank you! I felt pretty good after leaving the MBE - sent Joe Separac my scores and he estimated 130/175 correct on the Feb exam. I do remember in the afternoon portion of the MBE doing the first 50 questions and thinking omg, I knew every answer, this is crazy - then exactly at number 51 saying, ohhhhh sh*t, I'm now guessing at 50% of these things, Lol - but overall I felt like it was pretty similar to the PEs and PQs I saw in Adaptibar.

I took OPE 4 about a week before the exam and scored an 83%, however the OPEs do not include Civ Pro and I'm sure if that subject was included my score would have been more around 72% - 75%. I averaged low 70s to mid 80s on most of my practice exams - hope this helps!

washington_mystics

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Re: THEMIS DISCUSSION - FEBRUARY 2019

Postby washington_mystics » Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:02 am

washington_mystics wrote:Well. I can't say that went how I expected it to go. I thought MPT was my strength going in. MPT #1 wasn't too bad, MPT #2 - got formatting down and some analysis but didnt have time to conclude or delete my outline notes from underneath my memorandum. I'm not sure if the examiners are going to count those as part of my answer, but can't bode well if they do. MEEs seemed straightford until reflecting afterwards: applied the wrong tort theory, missing the crim pro section and the child support exception for creditors. MBE was a mixed bag.

I'll update in 80 days, enjoy a little siesta.

Stats:
Overall Themis MBE - 63%, 2200 PQs (I frontloaded most of the mix sets)
Milestone #1 - 71%
Milestone #2 - 54%
Milestone #3 - 122/200
Milestone #4 - 70/100
Essays: 4/6 on average (grader seemed pretty lenient)

+
Overall Adaptibar MBE: 75%, 2000 PQs


Got the results this morning :)

Total: 295
MBE: 150.6
MEE: 144.4

Houstonttt

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Re: THEMIS DISCUSSION - FEBRUARY 2019

Postby Houstonttt » Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:08 am

washington_mystics wrote:
washington_mystics wrote:Well. I can't say that went how I expected it to go. I thought MPT was my strength going in. MPT #1 wasn't too bad, MPT #2 - got formatting down and some analysis but didnt have time to conclude or delete my outline notes from underneath my memorandum. I'm not sure if the examiners are going to count those as part of my answer, but can't bode well if they do. MEEs seemed straightford until reflecting afterwards: applied the wrong tort theory, missing the crim pro section and the child support exception for creditors. MBE was a mixed bag.

I'll update in 80 days, enjoy a little siesta.

Stats:
Overall Themis MBE - 63%, 2200 PQs (I frontloaded most of the mix sets)
Milestone #1 - 71%
Milestone #2 - 54%
Milestone #3 - 122/200
Milestone #4 - 70/100
Essays: 4/6 on average (grader seemed pretty lenient)

+
Overall Adaptibar MBE: 75%, 2000 PQs


Got the results this morning :)

Total: 295
MBE: 150.6
MEE: 144.4

CONGRATS !!!! THANKS FOR SHARING still waiting for TX :)



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