THEMIS JULY 2018 - DISCUSSION

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White Dwarf

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Re: THEMIS JULY 2018 - DISCUSSION

Postby White Dwarf » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:19 pm

Has anyone broken down how terribly we can do on the MEE if we do well on the MPT (assuming a decent MBE)?

Feeling completely overwhelmed by the MEE right now.

Pajsa18

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Re: THEMIS JULY 2018 - DISCUSSION

Postby Pajsa18 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:27 pm

CBlaw wrote:Well folks I am traveling to my bar location tommorow morning. I likely will be done with this thread. With that said, Good Luck to everyone!! We got this!!


Good luck and safe travels!

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midtrains

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Re: THEMIS JULY 2018 - DISCUSSION

Postby midtrains » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:33 pm

White Dwarf wrote:Has anyone broken down how terribly we can do on the MEE if we do well on the MPT (assuming a decent MBE)?

Feeling completely overwhelmed by the MEE right now.


There's this chart for NY (266 UBE), you just have to be above the curve so any combination of percentiles that'll put you there. Of course who knows what dumb score that is but it's making me feel better because I only need a 260

https://i.imgur.com/2qMuKgV.png

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Re: THEMIS JULY 2018 - DISCUSSION

Postby Omerta » Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:22 am

This is just my .02, but the best way to spend the last couple days (if you've already studied a bunch) is to spend a couple hours for the MBE hitting the stuff you're disproportionately bad at and, for the essays, structuring to make sure you don't leave out whole topics.

I like to condense each set to a series of questions, which helps me make sure that I hit everything. For instance, here's what it is for corporations:

    Any pre-incorporation acts?
    Incorporation done right?
    Articles of incorporation proper?
    Directors properly added?
    Shares properly issued?
    Any weird voting instruments?
    Distributions properly declared?
    Any committees doing stuff?
    Any merger or asset sale?
    Any shareholder special injury?
    Any potential injury to corporation?
    Any annual or special meetings?
    Any missing filings?
    Any creditors/dissolution issues?

Or family law

    Is the marriage valid?
    Is there a pre- or post-nup?
    Did anyone try to get out of the marriage?
    Any adoptions?
    Any domestic abuse issues?
    Anyone trying to get money or property?
    Anyone fighting over paternity?
    Anyone fighting over visitation rights?
    Anyone fighting over what's in child's best interest?
    Any guardians involved?

People don't fail the bar by missing the super nuanced points. You can have absolutely no idea what some of the rules are, make shit up, and still pass by a healthy margin. What can get you in trouble is getting so focused on the minutia that you forget to even address a major issue.

What I did on the last bar, and what I plan to do for the upcoming one, is read the prompt, figure out what the general areas are, then write out my basic list of questions, which forms the backbone of my outline. It helps by making you immediately productive and gives you a functional outline.


Tala29 wrote:I am actually really concerned that I did not practice more than 2 MPTS during the whole course - one persuasive and the other and objective memo.

Is this going to be a big problem? Should I do some tomorrow maybe?


No. I think I did two the first time I took the bar.

jcwest wrote:I do not know what the CPT is but if its like the MPT... I too have only done two. Got an 83% on the graded and have not looked back.

There is so much I do not know that I have decided to stop caring and trust I know enough to pass. Minimum competency folks. I'll be putting in 8 hours tomorrow and probably 6-8 on Monday because I can't not but I stopped at 4 today... which was still 7 hours. Felt great.



The best thing you can do to improve your score is make sure you're well rested for Tuesday. The potential for whatever minutia you get to stick in your brain from an extra 4-8 hours of studying pales in comparison to the benefit of sleep and giving your brain a day off.

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Re: THEMIS JULY 2018 - DISCUSSION

Postby Omerta » Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:52 am

Sorry for the double post, but I need to rant somewhere and my wife is probably tired of hearing me rage about how stupid the bar is.

Regarding removal, which of the following is FALSE?

You Selected: Removal is proper only if the case could have originally been brought by the plaintiff in federal court.

When removal is based on diversity jurisdiction, removal is proper only if the case was originally brought in a state of which no defendant is a citizen.

Only a defendant can remove a case.

Correct Answer: Federal courts cannot abstain from hearing a properly removed case.



There are numerous situations where a remove would be proper even if the case could not have originally been brought in federal court. Examples would include fraudulent joinder/dismissal of a party destroying diversity or the failure to allege adequate damages, which could result in the case becoming removal after receipt of an "other paper" demonstrating that the amount-in-controversy requirement was satisfied. That's why the rule has a provision that specifically deals with cases that become removal after the initial pleading.

Likewise, a federal court can abstain from hearing certain cases, even if the case were properly removed. 1367's exception for substantial unresolved state law questions would be one reason. Even if you say that doesn't count because that would only authorize declining to exercise jurisdiction, rather than an abstention doctrine, there are at least three abstention doctrines that could justify abstention from a properly removed federal case: Pullman, Younger, and Wilton/Brillhart abstention.

Same beef with this question

A plaintiff filed a complaint in federal court alleging that a cell phone application sold by the defendant infringed upon a patent held by the plaintiff. The complaint was signed by an associate at the large law firm that represented the plaintiff. The defendant filed a motion to dismiss, arguing that the cell phone application at issue did not actually perform as described in the complaint, and thus did not affect the plaintiff’s patent. The court held a hearing on the motion to dismiss. At the hearing, the defendant presented evidence that the application performed only functions not covered by the plaintiff’s patent. The defendant also showed that the plaintiff’s attorney had never actually used the application, but had drafted the complaint based solely on his client’s description of the application. The court granted the motion to dismiss. The court also issued an order requiring the plaintiff’s attorney and his law firm to pay the defendant’s attorney’s fees, finding that the plaintiff’s attorney had not conducted a reasonable inquiry into the factual contentions in the complaint.

What of the following is the best argument that the court erred in its order requiring payment of attorney’s fees?

Answers:

A court may not impose sanctions against a law firm unless the pleading at issue is signed by a partner.
Correct Answer: A court may not order a party to pay the opposing party’s attorney’s fees except upon motion.
You Selected: An attorney may rely upon factual contentions put forth by the client in a pleading.
Attorney’s fees are not a permissible type of sanction under Rule 11.


This is 100% wrong! A court may impose monetary sanctions against a party on its own initiative--it just can't do so before providing the party to be sanctioned notice and an opportunity to be heard. It's in the text of Rule 11.

I hate when the questions overgeneralize or when your experience contradicts the bizarro bar jurisdiction interpretations.

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Re: THEMIS JULY 2018 - DISCUSSION

Postby masterherm » Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:37 am

Any stats out there for Themis pass rate among people who complete 75+%?

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White Dwarf

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Re: THEMIS JULY 2018 - DISCUSSION

Postby White Dwarf » Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:44 am

Omerta wrote:I hate when the questions overgeneralize or when your experience contradicts the bizarro bar jurisdiction interpretations.

Yeah, this has happened several times for me with criminal procedure.

It doesn't help that they're extremely inconsistent with when you're allowed (or even supposed) to make common sense leaps that go beyond the text of the question.

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Re: THEMIS JULY 2018 - DISCUSSION

Postby Findedeux » Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:34 am

Omerta wrote:Sorry for the double post, but I need to rant somewhere and my wife is probably tired of hearing me rage about how stupid the bar is.

Regarding removal, which of the following is FALSE?

You Selected: Removal is proper only if the case could have originally been brought by the plaintiff in federal court.

When removal is based on diversity jurisdiction, removal is proper only if the case was originally brought in a state of which no defendant is a citizen.

Only a defendant can remove a case.

Correct Answer: Federal courts cannot abstain from hearing a properly removed case.



There are numerous situations where a remove would be proper even if the case could not have originally been brought in federal court. Examples would include fraudulent joinder/dismissal of a party destroying diversity or the failure to allege adequate damages, which could result in the case becoming removal after receipt of an "other paper" demonstrating that the amount-in-controversy requirement was satisfied. That's why the rule has a provision that specifically deals with cases that become removal after the initial pleading.

Likewise, a federal court can abstain from hearing certain cases, even if the case were properly removed. 1367's exception for substantial unresolved state law questions would be one reason. Even if you say that doesn't count because that would only authorize declining to exercise jurisdiction, rather than an abstention doctrine, there are at least three abstention doctrines that could justify abstention from a properly removed federal case: Pullman, Younger, and Wilton/Brillhart abstention.

Same beef with this question

A plaintiff filed a complaint in federal court alleging that a cell phone application sold by the defendant infringed upon a patent held by the plaintiff. The complaint was signed by an associate at the large law firm that represented the plaintiff. The defendant filed a motion to dismiss, arguing that the cell phone application at issue did not actually perform as described in the complaint, and thus did not affect the plaintiff’s patent. The court held a hearing on the motion to dismiss. At the hearing, the defendant presented evidence that the application performed only functions not covered by the plaintiff’s patent. The defendant also showed that the plaintiff’s attorney had never actually used the application, but had drafted the complaint based solely on his client’s description of the application. The court granted the motion to dismiss. The court also issued an order requiring the plaintiff’s attorney and his law firm to pay the defendant’s attorney’s fees, finding that the plaintiff’s attorney had not conducted a reasonable inquiry into the factual contentions in the complaint.

What of the following is the best argument that the court erred in its order requiring payment of attorney’s fees?

Answers:

A court may not impose sanctions against a law firm unless the pleading at issue is signed by a partner.
Correct Answer: A court may not order a party to pay the opposing party’s attorney’s fees except upon motion.
You Selected: An attorney may rely upon factual contentions put forth by the client in a pleading.
Attorney’s fees are not a permissible type of sanction under Rule 11.


This is 100% wrong! A court may impose monetary sanctions against a party on its own initiative--it just can't do so before providing the party to be sanctioned notice and an opportunity to be heard. It's in the text of Rule 11.

I hate when the questions overgeneralize or when your experience contradicts the bizarro bar jurisdiction interpretations.



Actually, according to our outline at least, a party has to file a motion specifically for attorney's fees. The Court can sua sponte impose sanctions on other bases.

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Re: THEMIS JULY 2018 - DISCUSSION

Postby Findedeux » Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:40 am

masterherm wrote:Any stats out there for Themis pass rate among people who complete 75+%?


I think it would make way more sense for them to put out stats correlated to performance on practice tests.

As far as statistics goes, it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to try and correlate a bunch of disparate and loosely related actions when the whole point of practice tests is to predict how you will do on the exam.

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White Dwarf

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Re: THEMIS JULY 2018 - DISCUSSION

Postby White Dwarf » Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:18 am

https://www.themisbar.com/pass-rates

3rd column has 75% completion pass rates. I agree that it's kind of pointless, given that you can easily check things off without really engaging with them.

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Re: THEMIS JULY 2018 - DISCUSSION

Postby gasfard » Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:33 pm

this might be a bit off topic but how cold/warm are the testing centers usually? packing right now and I'm thinking of wearing a t shirt and pants, and bring a zip up hoodie just in case

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Re: THEMIS JULY 2018 - DISCUSSION

Postby jcwest » Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:44 pm

Just wanted to say its been a pleasure ladies and gents. Needed the comradery through these past two weeks.

My last two days will be focused studying and relaxation. Turning the internet off. Best of luck to you all.

Lawworld19

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Re: THEMIS JULY 2018 - DISCUSSION

Postby Lawworld19 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:48 pm

jcwest wrote:Just wanted to say its been a pleasure ladies and gents. Needed the comradery through these past two weeks.

My last two days will be focused studying and relaxation. Turning the internet off. Best of luck to you all.



Give it hell my friend!

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Re: THEMIS JULY 2018 - DISCUSSION

Postby Omerta » Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:36 pm

Findedeux wrote:
Omerta wrote:Sorry for the double post, but I need to rant somewhere and my wife is probably tired of hearing me rage about how stupid the bar is.

Regarding removal, which of the following is FALSE?

You Selected: Removal is proper only if the case could have originally been brought by the plaintiff in federal court.

When removal is based on diversity jurisdiction, removal is proper only if the case was originally brought in a state of which no defendant is a citizen.

Only a defendant can remove a case.

Correct Answer: Federal courts cannot abstain from hearing a properly removed case.



There are numerous situations where a remove would be proper even if the case could not have originally been brought in federal court. Examples would include fraudulent joinder/dismissal of a party destroying diversity or the failure to allege adequate damages, which could result in the case becoming removal after receipt of an "other paper" demonstrating that the amount-in-controversy requirement was satisfied. That's why the rule has a provision that specifically deals with cases that become removal after the initial pleading.

Likewise, a federal court can abstain from hearing certain cases, even if the case were properly removed. 1367's exception for substantial unresolved state law questions would be one reason. Even if you say that doesn't count because that would only authorize declining to exercise jurisdiction, rather than an abstention doctrine, there are at least three abstention doctrines that could justify abstention from a properly removed federal case: Pullman, Younger, and Wilton/Brillhart abstention.

Same beef with this question

A plaintiff filed a complaint in federal court alleging that a cell phone application sold by the defendant infringed upon a patent held by the plaintiff. The complaint was signed by an associate at the large law firm that represented the plaintiff. The defendant filed a motion to dismiss, arguing that the cell phone application at issue did not actually perform as described in the complaint, and thus did not affect the plaintiff’s patent. The court held a hearing on the motion to dismiss. At the hearing, the defendant presented evidence that the application performed only functions not covered by the plaintiff’s patent. The defendant also showed that the plaintiff’s attorney had never actually used the application, but had drafted the complaint based solely on his client’s description of the application. The court granted the motion to dismiss. The court also issued an order requiring the plaintiff’s attorney and his law firm to pay the defendant’s attorney’s fees, finding that the plaintiff’s attorney had not conducted a reasonable inquiry into the factual contentions in the complaint.

What of the following is the best argument that the court erred in its order requiring payment of attorney’s fees?

Answers:

A court may not impose sanctions against a law firm unless the pleading at issue is signed by a partner.
Correct Answer: A court may not order a party to pay the opposing party’s attorney’s fees except upon motion.
You Selected: An attorney may rely upon factual contentions put forth by the client in a pleading.
Attorney’s fees are not a permissible type of sanction under Rule 11.


This is 100% wrong! A court may impose monetary sanctions against a party on its own initiative--it just can't do so before providing the party to be sanctioned notice and an opportunity to be heard. It's in the text of Rule 11.

I hate when the questions overgeneralize or when your experience contradicts the bizarro bar jurisdiction interpretations.



Actually, according to our outline at least, a party has to file a motion specifically for attorney's fees. The Court can sua sponte impose sanctions on other bases.


Yeah, and that's the problem. The statement "A court may not order a party to pay the opposing party’s attorney’s fees except upon motion" is a misstatement of law; the court may, on its own, initiative, order a party to show cause why sanctions should not be imposed. The court could also use its inherent authority to sanction a party, which wouldn't require a motion. There is a difference between the abstract statement " a court may not order sanctions except upon a motion" and the statement the court may not order sanctions because plaintiff did not make a motion" or something like that.

Sure, you can say that's pedantic, but there are plenty of other questions where one answer is a statement of law that's overinclusive or underinclusive, so the best choice is something that is factually accurate but not the best argument a party can make.

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Auxilio

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Re: THEMIS JULY 2018 - DISCUSSION

Postby Auxilio » Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:37 pm

White Dwarf wrote:https://www.themisbar.com/pass-rates

3rd column has 75% completion pass rates. I agree that it's kind of pointless, given that you can easily check things off without really engaging with them.


Especially when the set up basically forces you to check things off. There's a huge difference between reading the answers to an essay (what I generally did) vs. outlining fully vs. writing fully that just isn't represented at all.

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Re: THEMIS JULY 2018 - DISCUSSION

Postby BlueLaw11 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:36 pm

What's the final verdict on throwing everything but the kitchen sink at the Essays? Most of the model answers bring up every conceivable issue (regardless how frivolous), but my essay grader told me to stick to what was obvious. Tempted to just say every possible issue that comes to my mind, but I don't want to piss off the graders

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Re: THEMIS JULY 2018 - DISCUSSION

Postby fuuuuuuuuuu » Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:40 pm

Depends on jurisdiction I think. MEE doesn't really provide you with much room for error given time constraints, so probably not advisable. But for the states that utilize a more convoluted fact pattern for three 1 hour essays (or some variation of that), I think throwing the kitchen sink is actually beneficial to you.

BlueLaw11 wrote:What's the final verdict on throwing everything but the kitchen sink at the Essays? Most of the model answers bring up every conceivable issue (regardless how frivolous), but my essay grader told me to stick to what was obvious. Tempted to just say every possible issue that comes to my mind, but I don't want to piss off the graders

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Re: THEMIS JULY 2018 - DISCUSSION

Postby Kinky John » Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:04 pm

Omerta wrote:
Findedeux wrote:
Omerta wrote:Sorry for the double post, but I need to rant somewhere and my wife is probably tired of hearing me rage about how stupid the bar is.

Regarding removal, which of the following is FALSE?

You Selected: Removal is proper only if the case could have originally been brought by the plaintiff in federal court.

When removal is based on diversity jurisdiction, removal is proper only if the case was originally brought in a state of which no defendant is a citizen.

Only a defendant can remove a case.

Correct Answer: Federal courts cannot abstain from hearing a properly removed case.



There are numerous situations where a remove would be proper even if the case could not have originally been brought in federal court. Examples would include fraudulent joinder/dismissal of a party destroying diversity or the failure to allege adequate damages, which could result in the case becoming removal after receipt of an "other paper" demonstrating that the amount-in-controversy requirement was satisfied. That's why the rule has a provision that specifically deals with cases that become removal after the initial pleading.

Likewise, a federal court can abstain from hearing certain cases, even if the case were properly removed. 1367's exception for substantial unresolved state law questions would be one reason. Even if you say that doesn't count because that would only authorize declining to exercise jurisdiction, rather than an abstention doctrine, there are at least three abstention doctrines that could justify abstention from a properly removed federal case: Pullman, Younger, and Wilton/Brillhart abstention.

Same beef with this question

A plaintiff filed a complaint in federal court alleging that a cell phone application sold by the defendant infringed upon a patent held by the plaintiff. The complaint was signed by an associate at the large law firm that represented the plaintiff. The defendant filed a motion to dismiss, arguing that the cell phone application at issue did not actually perform as described in the complaint, and thus did not affect the plaintiff’s patent. The court held a hearing on the motion to dismiss. At the hearing, the defendant presented evidence that the application performed only functions not covered by the plaintiff’s patent. The defendant also showed that the plaintiff’s attorney had never actually used the application, but had drafted the complaint based solely on his client’s description of the application. The court granted the motion to dismiss. The court also issued an order requiring the plaintiff’s attorney and his law firm to pay the defendant’s attorney’s fees, finding that the plaintiff’s attorney had not conducted a reasonable inquiry into the factual contentions in the complaint.

What of the following is the best argument that the court erred in its order requiring payment of attorney’s fees?

Answers:

A court may not impose sanctions against a law firm unless the pleading at issue is signed by a partner.
Correct Answer: A court may not order a party to pay the opposing party’s attorney’s fees except upon motion.
You Selected: An attorney may rely upon factual contentions put forth by the client in a pleading.
Attorney’s fees are not a permissible type of sanction under Rule 11.


This is 100% wrong! A court may impose monetary sanctions against a party on its own initiative--it just can't do so before providing the party to be sanctioned notice and an opportunity to be heard. It's in the text of Rule 11.

I hate when the questions overgeneralize or when your experience contradicts the bizarro bar jurisdiction interpretations.



Actually, according to our outline at least, a party has to file a motion specifically for attorney's fees. The Court can sua sponte impose sanctions on other bases.


Yeah, and that's the problem. The statement "A court may not order a party to pay the opposing party’s attorney’s fees except upon motion" is a misstatement of law; the court may, on its own, initiative, order a party to show cause why sanctions should not be imposed. The court could also use its inherent authority to sanction a party, which wouldn't require a motion. There is a difference between the abstract statement " a court may not order sanctions except upon a motion" and the statement the court may not order sanctions because plaintiff did not make a motion" or something like that.

Sure, you can say that's pedantic, but there are plenty of other questions where one answer is a statement of law that's overinclusive or underinclusive, so the best choice is something that is factually accurate but not the best argument a party can make.


Re-read Rule 11. Attorney's fees can only be imposed on a party's motion. Monetary sanctions doesn't mean the same thing as attorney's fees. Attorney's fees are treated specially under the Rule. You're conflating the two.

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Re: THEMIS JULY 2018 - DISCUSSION

Postby dabigchina » Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:33 pm

BlueLaw11 wrote:What's the final verdict on throwing everything but the kitchen sink at the Essays? Most of the model answers bring up every conceivable issue (regardless how frivolous), but my essay grader told me to stick to what was obvious. Tempted to just say every possible issue that comes to my mind, but I don't want to piss off the graders

Also curious...

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Re: THEMIS JULY 2018 - DISCUSSION

Postby Ava1989 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:44 pm

Hey, sorry for probably being the 100th person asking this :oops: , but anyone knows what percentage on the MBE practice corresponds to a NY passing score on the actual MBE? Is it the 70% that Themis puts as goal on its mixed-subjects PQs?
Thanks in advance :)

Pajsa18

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Re: THEMIS JULY 2018 - DISCUSSION

Postby Pajsa18 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:01 pm

Just to confirm some previous postings about mixed set 17 - did pretty much everyone score significantly lower on that one, or on set 18?

I just took 17 and did so much worse than my normal average, but wasn't sure if that was the consensus on this mixed set?

fuuuuuuuuuu

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Re: THEMIS JULY 2018 - DISCUSSION

Postby fuuuuuuuuuu » Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:11 pm

I honestly think it's random and it depends on what questions you have left in the pool. Mixed set 17 was just about the same for me (same score as like 7-8 other sets, well settled over 70%). However, mixed sets 15 and 16 kicked my butt.

Pajsa18 wrote:Just to confirm some previous postings about mixed set 17 - did pretty much everyone score significantly lower on that one, or on set 18?

I just took 17 and did so much worse than my normal average, but wasn't sure if that was the consensus on this mixed set?

Pajsa18

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Re: THEMIS JULY 2018 - DISCUSSION

Postby Pajsa18 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:39 pm

fuuuuuuuuuu wrote:I honestly think it's random and it depends on what questions you have left in the pool. Mixed set 17 was just about the same for me (same score as like 7-8 other sets, well settled over 70%). However, mixed sets 15 and 16 kicked my butt.

Pajsa18 wrote:Just to confirm some previous postings about mixed set 17 - did pretty much everyone score significantly lower on that one, or on set 18?

I just took 17 and did so much worse than my normal average, but wasn't sure if that was the consensus on this mixed set?



Ok thanks. I’m not going to worry about it anymore.

Good luck everyone!

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Re: THEMIS JULY 2018 - DISCUSSION

Postby Findedeux » Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:56 pm

Can we post Themis questions on here?

I just did practice test 4 and I really don't understand one of the quesitons.

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Auxilio

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Re: THEMIS JULY 2018 - DISCUSSION

Postby Auxilio » Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:14 pm

Findedeux wrote:Can we post Themis questions on here?

I just did practice test 4 and I really don't understand one of the quesitons.


Yeah, we've discussed a lot of them--post away.



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