Re: Exam results appeal/OH
Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:50 pm
Isn’t half of you first answer the exact opposite of what the model answer says? It’s definitely not “identical.”
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I agree that there is a fundamental lack of professionalism and transparency associated with the grading of this exam. What is very sad is that you can “fail” an essay not on lack of knowlesge of the law or application but just because your answer did not fit a particular format. This is the quintessential problem with the grading methodology - it proves that the test has less to do with competence and more to do with justifying it’s own existence. Unfortunately, we still have to pass this thing so no sense concentrating on it now. You should look into Japan’s system which is so brutal that it makes our inconvenient system look quite fair. Anyway, directing too much energy in that direction will not help now so the best thing to do is embrace the suck.mka2016 wrote:I am sort of in the same boat. I had reviewed my essays with the sample essays they provide. I definitely agree that a 1 was really harsh. That being said, you can definitely improve (format, buzz words, typo's etc.) .I have had multiple essays that are almost verbatim and yet significantly lower. There is absolutely no logical explanation other than grader negligence.
Just for laughs the other night I researched a little about the process and I have spoken to former bar examiners and the process is pretty unbelievable. Corporate attorneys grading criminal procedure essays. I realize they are given grading criteria etc. However, I have been told a lot of examiners spend less than a minute on an essay and that if the first "response" is incorrect that they essentially nix the entire essay. They are given weeks to complete grading and do it at the last minute. This is absolutely ridiculous and what's worse is as you have said, absolutely zero recourse for students. I just cannot believe they have no responsibility to be transparent. Sorry for the rant, I will try and post my essays and sample answers when I have time but yes, I feel your pain.
RCinDNA wrote:I agree that there is a fundamental lack of professionalism and transparency associated with the grading of this exam. What is very sad is that you can “fail” an essay not on lack of knowlesge of the law or application but just because your answer did not fit a particular format. This is the quintessential problem with the grading methodology - it proves that the test has less to do with competence and more to do with justifying it’s own existence. Unfortunately, we still have to pass this thing so no sense concentrating on it now. You should look into Japan’s system which is so brutal that it makes our inconvenient system look quite fair. Anyway, directing too much energy in that direction will not help now so the best thing to do is embrace the suck.mka2016 wrote:I am sort of in the same boat. I had reviewed my essays with the sample essays they provide. I definitely agree that a 1 was really harsh. That being said, you can definitely improve (format, buzz words, typo's etc.) .I have had multiple essays that are almost verbatim and yet significantly lower. There is absolutely no logical explanation other than grader negligence.
Just for laughs the other night I researched a little about the process and I have spoken to former bar examiners and the process is pretty unbelievable. Corporate attorneys grading criminal procedure essays. I realize they are given grading criteria etc. However, I have been told a lot of examiners spend less than a minute on an essay and that if the first "response" is incorrect that they essentially nix the entire essay. They are given weeks to complete grading and do it at the last minute. This is absolutely ridiculous and what's worse is as you have said, absolutely zero recourse for students. I just cannot believe they have no responsibility to be transparent. Sorry for the rant, I will try and post my essays and sample answers when I have time but yes, I feel your pain.
Of course, OR has the highest passing rate among all UBE jurisdictions with the 274 passing score.perplixityparanoia wrote:Transparency is definitely needed in essay grading!!!
For candidates who fail in DC, DC bar allows to come in to the courthouse to review the essays.
When I went to review my essays, I was so disappointed.DC bar graders seemed to grade my essays arbitrarily. I find no rhyme or reason for each grade.
On the corner of each essays they just put the score and there was not a single mark-up on the essays and no way to tell where I got points and where I didn’t.
In fact I have started to think even with UBE there is so much discrepancy in different jurisdictions with Essay grading because graders from each jurisdiction varies in terms of their grading style.
I am convinced if my essays were graded in another UBE jurisdiction I would have passed. I wish there was a way to transfer the written part to another jurisdiction and see what would I have received (but that’s just wishful thinking on my part)
Anyways, essays grading will always remain a factor that will be uncertain. That’s why I guess consensus is to get as high a score possible on MBE.
Good luck everyone!
My girlfriend took it in mid 2000’s. We printed out her exam and the feb 2017 exam, she was blown away. Not one of her fact patters was over a page long.RCinDNA wrote:I think the passage rate was higher in the past because the test was more straightforward. My jurisdiction added obscure topics because “the test makers wanted to add more variety to the questions”. And we already know that actual practitioners and law professors do not fare well on these tests because practical skills are not tested on the bar.
You should look up the test from twenty years ago and compare it to the modern version.
I clerked in federal court and I didn’t learn much. What’s hilarious is my job is mostly appellate work and I love it. This is really starting to make me feel like I’m playing a carnival game, getting to that “what’s the point?” wall. I get the feeling my MBE is going to be high and I’m still never going to get a fair shake at essays.Jmari wrote:Don’t you love how all these procedures are secretive? No information whatsoever. Not only they are unfair, but provide no guidelines for us. I have read model answers that completely misstated rules, yet, were published as “better or over average” answers. To be frank, I have never liked the whole process of law school and internships. The only effective way for us to actually learn is to put these rules into practice, which some of us never do. Mostly, interns do jack sh*t and never learn from their experience. They should develop a process similar to that of residency of medical students. Maybe they will have more bar passers. Went off topic a bit.
I think they should ditch the bar exam and let law firms and the market dictate training and standards. But I have always been a Contracts guy and dislike licensing protocols that end up becoming ends unto themselves. I don’t know - probably sounds bitter but I think the minimum competence a lawyer should have is the ability to read, write, and research. The bar exam is more about memorization. I also legitimately wonder how many people would pass if there were no prep companies standardizing the elements and language because if you work in law, you’ll quickly see multiple variants of the elements for various claims.mka2016 wrote:I clerked in federal court and I didn’t learn much. What’s hilarious is my job is mostly appellate work and I love it. This is really starting to make me feel like I’m playing a carnival game, getting to that “what’s the point?” wall. I get the feeling my MBE is going to be high and I’m still never going to get a fair shake at essays.Jmari wrote:Don’t you love how all these procedures are secretive? No information whatsoever. Not only they are unfair, but provide no guidelines for us. I have read model answers that completely misstated rules, yet, were published as “better or over average” answers. To be frank, I have never liked the whole process of law school and internships. The only effective way for us to actually learn is to put these rules into practice, which some of us never do. Mostly, interns do jack sh*t and never learn from their experience. They should develop a process similar to that of residency of medical students. Maybe they will have more bar passers. Went off topic a bit.
I agree with a lot of this. Trying to back up the bar exam as a measure of ability to practice law is a huge farce. I think it makes sense to set some basic appropriate standards for law school curriculums. Then either give people their license for graduating or use some type of apprenticeship system or other practical training to obtain a license to practice without supervision. Maybe it could happen during the last semester of school, kind of like student teaching. Putting months of prep into the bar exam is just wasting time you could spend developing actual skills.RCinDNA wrote:I think they should ditch the bar exam and let law firms and the market dictate training and standards. But I have always been a Contracts guy and dislike licensing protocols that end up becoming ends unto themselves. I don’t know - probably sounds bitter but I think the minimum competence a lawyer should have is the ability to read, write, and research. The bar exam is more about memorization. I also legitimately wonder how many people would pass if there were no prep companies standardizing the elements and language because if you work in law, you’ll quickly see multiple variants of the elements for various claims.mka2016 wrote:I clerked in federal court and I didn’t learn much. What’s hilarious is my job is mostly appellate work and I love it. This is really starting to make me feel like I’m playing a carnival game, getting to that “what’s the point?” wall. I get the feeling my MBE is going to be high and I’m still never going to get a fair shake at essays.Jmari wrote:Don’t you love how all these procedures are secretive? No information whatsoever. Not only they are unfair, but provide no guidelines for us. I have read model answers that completely misstated rules, yet, were published as “better or over average” answers. To be frank, I have never liked the whole process of law school and internships. The only effective way for us to actually learn is to put these rules into practice, which some of us never do. Mostly, interns do jack sh*t and never learn from their experience. They should develop a process similar to that of residency of medical students. Maybe they will have more bar passers. Went off topic a bit.
So true. Bar exams actually act as a market inhibitor. Unless you intend to hang out a shingle, the market already filters out incompetent lawyers. Frustrates me to no end that my arguments are consistent winners in intellectual property cases for my firm against big name players, and all the way up through the Federal Circuit. I'm with a Dallas based firm, and the expectation is that I will handle their California cases since I now live in San Diego. But that can't happen if I fail the CA Bar Exam. Essentially, if I fail this exam my firm will not be able to utilize me out here until after Thanksgiving. Along with cutting my workload down for the past month, that means that my firm will lose almost 10 months of full productivity from me because all I will be able to contribute towards is motion practice.RCinDNA wrote:I think they should ditch the bar exam and let law firms and the market dictate training and standards. But I have always been a Contracts guy and dislike licensing protocols that end up becoming ends unto themselves. I don’t know - probably sounds bitter but I think the minimum competence a lawyer should have is the ability to read, write, and research. The bar exam is more about memorization. I also legitimately wonder how many people would pass if there were no prep companies standardizing the elements and language because if you work in law, you’ll quickly see multiple variants of the elements for various claims.mka2016 wrote:I clerked in federal court and I didn’t learn much. What’s hilarious is my job is mostly appellate work and I love it. This is really starting to make me feel like I’m playing a carnival game, getting to that “what’s the point?” wall. I get the feeling my MBE is going to be high and I’m still never going to get a fair shake at essays.Jmari wrote:Don’t you love how all these procedures are secretive? No information whatsoever. Not only they are unfair, but provide no guidelines for us. I have read model answers that completely misstated rules, yet, were published as “better or over average” answers. To be frank, I have never liked the whole process of law school and internships. The only effective way for us to actually learn is to put these rules into practice, which some of us never do. Mostly, interns do jack sh*t and never learn from their experience. They should develop a process similar to that of residency of medical students. Maybe they will have more bar passers. Went off topic a bit.