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james11

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Re: 2017 July California Bar

Post by james11 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:34 pm

rcharter1978 wrote:
james11 wrote:You cannot BS or wing essays and score 65+. Sorry. Not happening.
LOL, you actually have no idea what essay score you get when you pass the CA bar. Having had a tutor who was a past bar grader, my impression from him is that it happens more often than you think. And he was the first one to talk to me about how to wing it when I didn't know the law "cold." When a person has like 3 minutes to read your essay do you think they are really going to make sure you have "the law down cold?" or are they just going to make sure it at least sounds like you know the law? This is part of the reason why so much emphasis is put headings and subheadings because a grader is more likely to trust that you know the law if your headings at least look decent.

Now does this mean you don't have to know the law...of course not, because its hard to wing an entire essay....but do you have to "know the law cold." No, and its part of the reason I'm happy I got a tutor who was a past bar grader so that I had a good idea of what was really important versus what people just assume is important.
Dude this is all verifiable. Don't listen to an "impression" from a tutor who says it "happens more often than you think." Go to BarEssays and look at the real essays that scored 65, 70, 75. You won't find any that BSed an essay. Sure you will find a few rules that are not perfect, but the high scoring essays know and memorize the law really really well. I do not suggest going into the exam with only an "impression" from a tutor and not studying the actual graded essays to know exactly what you need to do to write a 65+ essay. I'm not trying to be mean or argumentative - the first time I took the exam I thought I could wing it also, especially since I was scoring 70%+ on the MBE. I ended up failing every essay. My raw MBE was 144.

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PotenC

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Re: 2017 July California Bar

Post by PotenC » Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:59 pm

rcharter1978 wrote:
james11 wrote:You cannot BS or wing essays and score 65+. Sorry. Not happening.
LOL, you actually have no idea what essay score you get when you pass the CA bar. Having had a tutor who was a past bar grader, my impression from him is that it happens more often than you think. And he was the first one to talk to me about how to wing it when I didn't know the law "cold." When a person has like 3 minutes to read your essay do you think they are really going to make sure you have "the law down cold?" or are they just going to make sure it at least sounds like you know the law? This is part of the reason why so much emphasis is put headings and subheadings because a grader is more likely to trust that you know the law if your headings at least look decent.

Now does this mean you don't have to know the law...of course not, because its hard to wing an entire essay....but do you have to "know the law cold." No, and its part of the reason I'm happy I got a tutor who was a past bar grader so that I had a good idea of what was really important versus what people just assume is important.
What's the general best practice if you need to wing it and make some stuff up?

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rcharter1978

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Re: 2017 July California Bar

Post by rcharter1978 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:15 pm

james11 wrote:
rcharter1978 wrote:
james11 wrote:You cannot BS or wing essays and score 65+. Sorry. Not happening.
LOL, you actually have no idea what essay score you get when you pass the CA bar. Having had a tutor who was a past bar grader, my impression from him is that it happens more often than you think. And he was the first one to talk to me about how to wing it when I didn't know the law "cold." When a person has like 3 minutes to read your essay do you think they are really going to make sure you have "the law down cold?" or are they just going to make sure it at least sounds like you know the law? This is part of the reason why so much emphasis is put headings and subheadings because a grader is more likely to trust that you know the law if your headings at least look decent.

Now does this mean you don't have to know the law...of course not, because its hard to wing an entire essay....but do you have to "know the law cold." No, and its part of the reason I'm happy I got a tutor who was a past bar grader so that I had a good idea of what was really important versus what people just assume is important.
Dude this is all verifiable. Don't listen to an "impression" from a tutor who says it "happens more often than you think." Go to BarEssays and look at the real essays that scored 65, 70, 75. You won't find any that BSed an essay. Sure you will find a few rules that are not perfect, but the high scoring essays know and memorize the law really really well. I do not suggest going into the exam with only an "impression" from a tutor and not studying the actual graded essays to know exactly what you need to do to write a 65+ essay. I'm not trying to be mean or argumentative - the first time I took the exam I thought I could wing it also, especially since I was scoring 70%+ on the MBE. I ended up failing every essay. My raw MBE was 144.
Bar essays are a small.cross section of people who.took.the exam and yeah I would take a bar graders word on these things.

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Re: 2017 July California Bar

Post by oldhoya » Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:56 pm

rcharter1978 wrote:
james11 wrote:
rcharter1978 wrote:
james11 wrote:You cannot BS or wing essays and score 65+. Sorry. Not happening.
LOL, you actually have no idea what essay score you get when you pass the CA bar. Having had a tutor who was a past bar grader, my impression from him is that it happens more often than you think. And he was the first one to talk to me about how to wing it when I didn't know the law "cold." When a person has like 3 minutes to read your essay do you think they are really going to make sure you have "the law down cold?" or are they just going to make sure it at least sounds like you know the law? This is part of the reason why so much emphasis is put headings and subheadings because a grader is more likely to trust that you know the law if your headings at least look decent.

Now does this mean you don't have to know the law...of course not, because its hard to wing an entire essay....but do you have to "know the law cold." No, and its part of the reason I'm happy I got a tutor who was a past bar grader so that I had a good idea of what was really important versus what people just assume is important.
Dude this is all verifiable. Don't listen to an "impression" from a tutor who says it "happens more often than you think." Go to BarEssays and look at the real essays that scored 65, 70, 75. You won't find any that BSed an essay. Sure you will find a few rules that are not perfect, but the high scoring essays know and memorize the law really really well. I do not suggest going into the exam with only an "impression" from a tutor and not studying the actual graded essays to know exactly what you need to do to write a 65+ essay. I'm not trying to be mean or argumentative - the first time I took the exam I thought I could wing it also, especially since I was scoring 70%+ on the MBE. I ended up failing every essay. My raw MBE was 144.
Bar essays are a small.cross section of people who.took.the exam and yeah I would take a bar graders word on these things.
Take a step back guys -- I think you both agree that winging it should not be anyone's plan. You just disagree about how screwed someone is if they are reduced to winging it. And I think THAT just depends on who is winging it. Some folks have a gift at BS (and they run the world!) but you shouldn't count on being one of them...

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logical seasoning

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Re: 2017 July California Bar

Post by logical seasoning » Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:46 am

Dang. I thought I knocked that Barbri contracts essay out of the park, yet I only got a 55 :cry:

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LockBox

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Re: 2017 July California Bar

Post by LockBox » Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:44 pm

logical seasoning wrote:Dang. I thought I knocked that Barbri contracts essay out of the park, yet I only got a 55 :cry:
In actuality, this is a gift, and you need MUCH more of this. People (myself included) tend to fall in love with themselves and what they do. So when I wrote an essay I thought I killed to get a 50/55 back from my tutor it made me really step back and think about what was going on.

Don't fall into the trap of thinking "oh well Barbri is just trying to scare us." They, much like my tutor, aren't just doing it as a scare tactic. So, find out what you needed to do to get to 65 and start thinking about that on your next essay.

I will say I had about 20 essays graded and most of those were 55's. Although I occasionally was in the 65 or even 75 range, even the week before the exam I received a 55 back. Even passing, you will likely have scored possibly one or two 55's. The point is to do well on those essays that you do know.

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a male human

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Re: 2017 July California Bar

Post by a male human » Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:54 pm

Thanks for that reminder LockBox. This is a great opportunity to get feedback on what to do differently next time. This is where the learning begins to happen.

Lectures, note taking, reading, memorizing, flashcard arts and crafts, etc. are busy work. It's easy work. It's comfortable work.

Doing practice questions... A step in the right direction for sure, but not necessarily useful by itself.

Getting feedback from model or actual answers and answer explanations, figuring what went right and wrong, and then redoing the question at least mentally... This is where you're learning.

It's going to feel bad at first. Maybe you'll even panic because you have no idea how to answer an essay/question. But this practice + feedback loop is going to bring you greater clarity than anything else ever can.

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Re: 2017 July California Bar

Post by LockBox » Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:18 pm

a male human wrote:Thanks for that reminder LockBox. This is a great opportunity to get feedback on what to do differently next time. This is where the learning begins to happen.

Lectures, note taking, reading, memorizing, flashcard arts and crafts, etc. are busy work. It's easy work. It's comfortable work.

Doing practice questions... A step in the right direction for sure, but not necessarily useful by itself.

Getting feedback from model or actual answers and answer explanations, figuring what went right and wrong, and then redoing the question at least mentally... This is where you're learning.

It's going to feel bad at first. Maybe you'll even panic because you have no idea how to answer an essay/question. But this practice + feedback loop is going to bring you greater clarity than anything else ever can.
I second everything said here. You've got about 5 weeks left. If you haven't been writing, you need to be. Open the word doc, write and hopefully get some feedback on your work.

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logical seasoning

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Re: 2017 July California Bar

Post by logical seasoning » Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:27 pm

Thanks for the motivation! The grader said I spotted almost all of the issues, but I need to use more/better headings and apply the rules more succinctly.

Im gonna try and re-write the essay (July 2012) tonight!

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InterAlia1961

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Re: 2017 July California Bar

Post by InterAlia1961 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:20 pm

I'd like to practice a couple of California Civ Pro and California Evidence essays. Other than the Feb. 2016 exam, does anyone know of another California Civ Pro essay? I'm still looking for California Evidence essays as well.

I've got 15 essays and one PT under my belt. I still suck at the PT. I'm improving on the essays, though. Coming in at around 1250 words with good headings and subheadings. This forum really helped me there. I don't think anyone on any forum can help me on the PT. Sigh. I'll keep practicing.

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Re: 2017 July California Bar

Post by LockBox » Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:19 pm

InterAlia1961 wrote:I'd like to practice a couple of California Civ Pro and California Evidence essays. Other than the Feb. 2016 exam, does anyone know of another California Civ Pro essay? I'm still looking for California Evidence essays as well.

I've got 15 essays and one PT under my belt. I still suck at the PT. I'm improving on the essays, though. Coming in at around 1250 words with good headings and subheadings. This forum really helped me there. I don't think anyone on any forum can help me on the PT. Sigh. I'll keep practicing.
As far as I know, that was the first time Cal CIv Pro had been tested. Everyone had been waiting with anticipation for years for it to show up.

For cal evidence, I believe you need to look as far back as 2009. There should be a list somewhere as to when it has been tested. Check bar essays.

try to double the number of essays under your belt at least. As far as PT's go, imagine you're in a firm and the boss assigns you this work (which is not inconceivable). How will you organize? How will you write your memo? Read a male human's 20-page primer on PT's then think about how you would tackle it yourself.

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Re: 2017 July California Bar

Post by ur_hero » Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:49 pm

InterAlia1961 wrote:I'd like to practice a couple of California Civ Pro and California Evidence essays. Other than the Feb. 2016 exam, does anyone know of another California Civ Pro essay? I'm still looking for California Evidence essays as well.

I've got 15 essays and one PT under my belt. I still suck at the PT. I'm improving on the essays, though. Coming in at around 1250 words with good headings and subheadings. This forum really helped me there. I don't think anyone on any forum can help me on the PT. Sigh. I'll keep practicing.
Keep it up! You've got a TON of time left to do more - just make full use of every day!

If you want an extra set of eyes to give any feedback on essays or PTs, feel free to send me anything and I'll give you my brief thoughts/comments. I'm no expert - but my bar tutor ingrained in me a lot of simple and logical things I know to watch out for now. It's all mostly stuff you've already heard on these forums - but lemme know!

For PTs, I'm sure you already are attempting to follow an approach so just work on truly making that systematic and getting exposed to different KINDS of PTs so you are flexible in how you execute them. My biggest issue was timing (My first few full practice PTs took me 5+ hours for a response I thought was complete). After doing about 3-4 (all different kinds) start to finish, it finally clicked and became systematic. Sure, sometimes they really do hide the ball and you're stuck trying to figure out what they want - but generally, you'll see the instructions and layout of the file/materials makes it very clear what is being asked. Struggling through a few will help with this.

Of course, essays and the PT are worth quite a bit less now - so don't get stuck on anything too long. Look for where you build/solidify the most free points for yourself.

It really does go without saying....But I'll say it anyways: hold yourself accountable to your daily goals!

changing_names

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Re: 2017 July California Bar

Post by changing_names » Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:19 pm

I am sure most people doing Themis already know this but in case someone does not: you can request more graded essays as long as you have completed all of the essays in a given subject. For example, as long as all practice essays for Contracts have been completed (7), you can request them to add "Graded Essays" by just sending a message through the "Compose Message" command under the Graded Essay subheading. They will only add 1 graded essay at a time but they will add as many times as you put in a request (as long as each time they add one you complete it before requesting the next one). You can request for several subjects at a time (I would like a graded essay for Contract, Real Property, Evidence, etc. since I have completed all available Essay PQ's for those subjects and would like additional benchmarks of my performance). Of course, for anyone with a bad essay grader this isn't helpful but for those of us with a helpful essay grader, this isn't a bad option.
As always, thank you all for the advice and encouragement on this board-especially to those who passed the bar a long time ago. You are all very generous with your time and your advice and we appreciate it a lot. :D

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EyeTwitchAllSummer

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Re: 2017 July California Bar

Post by EyeTwitchAllSummer » Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:34 pm

FYI: the sample answers from the February 2017 bar exam have FINALLY been posted on the state bar website.

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Re: 2017 July California Bar

Post by jagsta » Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:06 pm

Hi Everyone,

I passed the bar in Feb. and my heart goes out to all the folks grinding it out right now. I know what its like after having taken this beast twice. I don't think I realized the enormity of it all until I was post-passing the exam. That is why I'm making myself available for encouragement, someone to talk to, or technical tips on getting over the hump. PM me and we can exchange info. All the best wishes to everyone taking the July bar.

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Re: 2017 July California Bar

Post by InterAlia1961 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:50 pm

I just found out that I lost my job of 13 years. The company was bought out a few years back, and slowly but surely all of the old guard has been eliminated. I'm one of the last ones left. But I already performed my duties for the month. Guess who's getting paid $2,000? If they were going to let me go, they should've done it before I met my deadline sixteen days ago. Anyway, I better pass it this time. I'm going to be in a world of hurt if I don't. Would you like fries with that?

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Re: 2017 July California Bar

Post by mcmand » Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:38 pm

EyeTwitchAllSummer wrote:FYI: the sample answers from the February 2017 bar exam have FINALLY been posted on the state bar website.
Can you post a link, if you have it handy? My initial Google searching and browsing through their website is fruitless.

EDIT: Nevermind, found it. http://www.calbar.ca.gov/Admissions/Exa ... mquestions

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jphiggo

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Re: 2017 July California Bar

Post by jphiggo » Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:54 pm

Does anyone know where to find the material for the simulated half-day written exam?

Edit: for anyone else looking, it's conveniently located in the back of the CA lecture handouts book.

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Alt123

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Re: 2017 July California Bar

Post by Alt123 » Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:11 pm

All my closed book graded essays and PTs have been 65 or above, but these later barbri sets for MBE are fucking rocking me and destroying my confidence.

I am not sure how to apportion my time in the last few weeks here.

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Re: 2017 July California Bar

Post by LockBox » Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:45 pm

Alt123 wrote:All my closed book graded essays and PTs have been 65 or above, but these later barbri sets for MBE are fucking rocking me and destroying my confidence.

I am not sure how to apportion my time in the last few weeks here.
That's great - I know for myself, the writing was the hard part. If I were you I would do no less than 50 MBE's a day and review all questions. The saying is if it can be counted, it can be turned into a game. So, perhaps try doing 10 MBE's at a time and treat each one as a game. See if you can beat your previous score.

Nonetheless, I would still write and/or outline essays to make sure you're sharp.

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Re: 2017 July California Bar

Post by changing_names » Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:50 pm

MBEs are going fine and the ones that aren't I know how to fix, but does anyone have any advice for mastering the concepts for the essay portion? Once I put the notes aside, I can spot the big issues but I can't seem to regurgitate the rules without notes. What did you all use to enable retention? I have tried writing out entire outlines for each subject and yet again, while I have a general idea of what I am supposed to discuss, without notes my essays don't really go anywhere. I understand it takes works, it just seems that none of my methods are working (flashcards, handwriting the concepts out).

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Re: 2017 July California Bar

Post by a male human » Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:14 pm

changing_names wrote:MBEs are going fine and the ones that aren't I know how to fix, but does anyone have any advice for mastering the concepts for the essay portion? Once I put the notes aside, I can spot the big issues but I can't seem to regurgitate the rules without notes. What did you all use to enable retention? I have tried writing out entire outlines for each subject and yet again, while I have a general idea of what I am supposed to discuss, without notes my essays don't really go anywhere. I understand it takes works, it just seems that none of my methods are working (flashcards, handwriting the concepts out).
It sounds like you're merely familiar with the concepts, but you can't remember how to recite them, which is the key part.

Knowing the rules in theory is good, but that's just half the battle. You need to know how to apply them to the facts.

To that end, I would keep using the rules you want to remember in the context of a real problem. If you can't solve problems now, how are you going to solve them when it counts? This is also a good way to prioritize which rules you learn (because it's not feasible to remember everything).

Struggling is part of the process. If you really struggle and think and can't come up with it as you try to do an essay... then you look at the model answer and get that "I SEE!" flash of insight, that's going to help you retain it better.

Then redo the same essay, and see if you can do it. Think it's a waste of time? Quantity over quality? There's no time? If you really "get" it, you should be able to do it no problem.

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Re: 2017 July California Bar

Post by changing_names » Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:18 pm

a male human wrote:
changing_names wrote:MBEs are going fine and the ones that aren't I know how to fix, but does anyone have any advice for mastering the concepts for the essay portion? Once I put the notes aside, I can spot the big issues but I can't seem to regurgitate the rules without notes. What did you all use to enable retention? I have tried writing out entire outlines for each subject and yet again, while I have a general idea of what I am supposed to discuss, without notes my essays don't really go anywhere. I understand it takes works, it just seems that none of my methods are working (flashcards, handwriting the concepts out).
It sounds like you're merely familiar with the concepts, but you can't remember how to recite them, which is the key part.

Knowing the rules in theory is good, but that's just half the battle. You need to know how to apply them to the facts.

To that end, I would keep using the rules you want to remember in the context of a real problem. If you can't solve problems now, how are you going to solve them when it counts? This is also a good way to prioritize which rules you learn (because it's not feasible to remember everything).

Struggling is part of the process. If you really struggle and think and can't come up with it as you try to do an essay... then you look at the model answer and get that "I SEE!" flash of insight, that's going to help you retain it better.

Then redo the same essay, and see if you can do it. Think it's a waste of time? Quantity over quality? There's no time? If you really "get" it, you should be able to do it no problem.
You're totally right, I just don't know the material well enough. So you think I should keep using my notes as opposed to trying to memorize the concepts, then separately try to do essays without notes? Let me know if I am misunderstanding your advice and thanks for the guidance. I am just about ready to give up on this thing.

Edit: just read your post. I actually purchased your appro/magic sheets. I need to start focusing more on the memorization. It just feels like there stents enough hours in the day to relearn material, practice essays, practice MBEs and by the time that stuff is done it's 10 pm and my mind is kaput. Everyone seems to be writing essays without notes by this point I might just be a lost cause.

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Re: 2017 July California Bar

Post by a male human » Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:31 pm

changing_names wrote:
a male human wrote:
changing_names wrote:MBEs are going fine and the ones that aren't I know how to fix, but does anyone have any advice for mastering the concepts for the essay portion? Once I put the notes aside, I can spot the big issues but I can't seem to regurgitate the rules without notes. What did you all use to enable retention? I have tried writing out entire outlines for each subject and yet again, while I have a general idea of what I am supposed to discuss, without notes my essays don't really go anywhere. I understand it takes works, it just seems that none of my methods are working (flashcards, handwriting the concepts out).
It sounds like you're merely familiar with the concepts, but you can't remember how to recite them, which is the key part.

Knowing the rules in theory is good, but that's just half the battle. You need to know how to apply them to the facts.

To that end, I would keep using the rules you want to remember in the context of a real problem. If you can't solve problems now, how are you going to solve them when it counts? This is also a good way to prioritize which rules you learn (because it's not feasible to remember everything).

Struggling is part of the process. If you really struggle and think and can't come up with it as you try to do an essay... then you look at the model answer and get that "I SEE!" flash of insight, that's going to help you retain it better.

Then redo the same essay, and see if you can do it. Think it's a waste of time? Quantity over quality? There's no time? If you really "get" it, you should be able to do it no problem.
You're totally right, I just don't know the material well enough. So you think I should keep using my notes as opposed to trying to memorize the concepts, then separately try to do essays without notes? Let me know if I am misunderstanding your advice and thanks for the guidance. I am just about ready to give up on this thing.
Yes, I think your approach makes sense.

If you're totally in the weeds, I'd say use your notes as needed so that you're at least completing essays without looking at answers.

Like you suggest, doing it closed book is also important even if you're not ready (you're doing this now to become ready, relatively). As mentioned, part of the process is the struggle, the feeling that you don't know it. Get the failures out of the way now.

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Re: 2017 July California Bar

Post by a male human » Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:37 pm

changing_names wrote:Edit: just read your post. I actually purchased your appro/magic sheets. I need to start focusing more on the memorization. It just feels like there stents enough hours in the day to relearn material, practice essays, practice MBEs and by the time that stuff is done it's 10 pm and my mind is kaput. Everyone seems to be writing essays without notes by this point I might just be a lost cause.
Awesome, I hope you find them useful. You're competing against yourself, not others. That said, you'll probably "catch up" faster through practice and working backwards—attempting problems and then figuring out the law and plugging the gap. You can't fly a plane by memorizing the manual :) (Well, tell that to Frank Abagnale, right?)

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

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