New Mexico low passage rate is causing panic

blaze1306
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New Mexico low passage rate is causing panic

Postby blaze1306 » Tue Sep 20, 2016 2:51 pm

This message was sent from the State of New Mexico on behalf of the Bar. I am particularly interested in the minority aspect of the article. No Native Americans passed (0 of 14), a much higher than explainable proportion of African Americans and Hispanics also failed...explanation?


Dear Law School Community, Our Alumni & Friends,

We want to thank those of you who have taken swift and sincere interest in the recent bar passage rates for UNM School of Law graduates following the two bar exams this year. For all members of our law school community, we want to inclusively share the related facts and details. We welcome your thoughts and feedback as we work to support our recent graduates and our current students in preparation for bar passage by adjusting our resources and approaches to the requirements of the newly adopted Uniform Bar Exam (UBE).

The low passage rate is related to the adoption of the Uniform Bar Exam (UBE), which took place in February, 2016. Before the beginning of the transition to the new exam, the previous low for UNM School of Law first-timers was 81%. UNM Law is not alone in how its bar pass rate and our graduate bar takers have been affected. Bar pass rates have dropped dramatically across the country and articles on this subject are now appearing almost daily, from the ABA and other sources. A recent study determined that MBE scores have nationally reached a 30-year low.

Our February first time pass rate was 71% and our July first time pass rate was 68%. The latter is a 13-point drop from our 81% pass rate in July 2015. The overall pass rates for UNM School of Law, which include repeat examinees regardless of when they graduated or how many times they may have taken the exam, are 58% and 62% respectively. While the pass rate for our first time takers is higher, it unfortunately dropped significantly on the 2016 exams, as compared to the July 2015 results and previous years.

The UBE consists of three parts: MBE multiple choice exam, MEE essay exam, and the MPT performance test. The MBE comprises 50% of the score, the essay portion, 30%, and the performance portion, 20%. The UBE creates a portable score that is accepted in 20+ states and the District of Columbia, and each state sets its own passing score and admissions standards. The UBE uses holistic grading that is performed locally but uses a national rubric that is scaled nationally. The exam tests 12 subjects as follows:


* 7 MBE & MEE subjects: Civil Procedure, Constitutional Law, Contracts, Criminal Law and Procedure, Evidence, Real Property, Torts
* +5 MEE-only subjects: Business Associations, Conflict of Laws, Family Law, Trusts and Estates, and UCC Secured Transactions

However, there were several significant changes in the New Mexico exam as a result of the shift to the UBE. These changes included major changes in the content of the exam and the methodology for grading. The new exam tests majority rule legal principles that differ from New Mexico law in significant ways. Also, the multiple choice section of the exam has added Civil Procedure to the subjects tested. This is the first subject added to the MBE in more than 30 years. Additionally, we realize that many members of our bar may not know that the UBE essay exam also eliminated subjects like administrative law, community property, equitable remedies and Indian law that many of us feel are some of the essential components to practice in New Mexico and our curriculum. Moreover, the most recent sitting of the exam contained more hybrid essays, where multiple subjects were tested in a single essay (e.g., evidence and criminal procedure; real property and secured transactions). In addition to changes on the substance of the exam, the grading on the MEE essay section has shifted to a more formal legal analysis structure that emphasizes rule memorization rather than issue spotting. This is the second UBE exam that our students have taken, and we have had back-to-back drops in passage rates.

The Law School understands that preparing our students for licensure, as well as practice, is essential to our mission. Thus, we are undertaking a thorough analysis of the UBE among our faculty and administrators, to be followed by a strategic implementation of a plan designed to ensure that at least 80% of our graduates pass the bar exam on their first attempt and at least 85% of our graduates pass the bar exam within 18 months by May 2018. In addition, we are moving forward with an immediate plan to better support our students and graduates who plan to sit for the New Mexico Bar Exam within the next year. We are fortunate to be able to call upon two alumni already engaged in this work - one who has developed a successful preparation program for another law school, and a second who has experience in grading UBE essays.

In addition to our concern in the drop in bar passage rates, we are extremely concerned about the extent to which changes have affected minorities and women. Those who self-identified as white fared better than examinees who self-identified as people of color and men fared better than women on the February and July 2016 exams. The impact on minorities will be an important dialogue, and one in which we will engage our alumni and bar leaders. Fourteen first time takers in the state were Native American students (nine were from UNM), and none passed the UBE. More than forty percent of African American and Hispanic test takers failed the July 2016 exam as compared to less than twenty percent of white test-takers.

We welcome your input as we continue to form a faculty committee focused on the study of the adverse impact of the change in bar format here, especially on our minority and female students, and our necessary curricular, coaching and preparatory changes. In the meantime, we plan to engage in dialogue with the Committee on Diversity of the State Bar and the Supreme Court to raise these concerns and considerations.

Sincerely,

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grand inquisitor
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Re: New Mexico low passage rate is causing panic

Postby grand inquisitor » Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:23 pm

the explanation is likely that they were not prepared for the exam, but your provocative phrasing of the question leads me to believe it was a grand conspiracy to keep amer. indians, blacks, and latinos from joining the state bar.

blaze1306
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Re: New Mexico low passage rate is causing panic

Postby blaze1306 » Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:31 pm

grand inquisitor wrote:the explanation is likely that they were not prepared for the exam, but your provocative phrasing of the question leads me to believe it was a grand conspiracy to keep amer. indians, blacks, and latinos from joining the state bar.


Come on....I cant be the only scientist here that knows about statistical anomalies. I failed and I am a minority. I don't think for a second there is a conspiracy. I did well on the written but apparently I cant choose the right answer consistently when given 4 choices. I failed the MBE but there has to be an explanation for why NO Native Americans failed, 40% of Blacks failed but less than 20% of whites failed. I cant be the only one concerned. As a matter of fact I know I'm not the only one concerned since the Bar is putting together a committee to study the issue.

rkreymer
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Re: New Mexico low passage rate is causing panic

Postby rkreymer » Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:57 pm

Isn't it all anonymous?

lawhopeful100
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Re: New Mexico low passage rate is causing panic

Postby lawhopeful100 » Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:02 pm

URM admissions boosts could account for some of the discrepancy. GPA / LSAT scores have some predictive value as it relates to law school success. They likely have some predictive value as it relates to bar passage rate as well.

andythefir
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Re: New Mexico low passage rate is causing panic

Postby andythefir » Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:11 pm

UNM has always pitched itself as the go-to place for Native American students. Among other subjects, Indian law used to be one of the bar essay questions you knew was going to be there every single time. There's also a bizarre vibe of entitlement among UNM law students (when I was sworn into the bar people kept referring to it as "Harvard on the Rio Grande"), which in anecdotal experience led some takers to not study as seriously as they should have.

There will likely be course corrections on several levels. UNM will require higher LSAT scores, they will prep their students better, students will take it more seriously, and so on. But I'm also hopeful that this will be the beginning of a fairer playing field between alumni of all law schools.

joeyc328
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Re: New Mexico low passage rate is causing panic

Postby joeyc328 » Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:11 pm

Minorities have an advantage in the admission process (more likely to have lower GPAs and LSAT scores). There are entire threads about this in the What are my chances forum.

Law School incoming classes have been getting weaker over time. (Between 2010 and incoming 2013)

Perhaps New Mexico has hit a tipping point where the minorities being accepted fall into the likely to fail the bar range (See All of Indiana Tech) when before they had GPA and LSAT standards making them less of a risk.

blaze1306
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Re: New Mexico low passage rate is causing panic

Postby blaze1306 » Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:25 pm

andythefir wrote:UNM has always pitched itself as the go-to place for Native American students. Among other subjects, Indian law used to be one of the bar essay questions you knew was going to be there every single time. There's also a bizarre vibe of entitlement among UNM law students (when I was sworn into the bar people kept referring to it as "Harvard on the Rio Grande"), which in anecdotal experience led some takers to not study as seriously as they should have.

There will likely be course corrections on several levels. UNM will require higher LSAT scores, they will prep their students better, students will take it more seriously, and so on. But I'm also hopeful that this will be the beginning of a fairer playing field between alumni of all law schools.


You know you are not the first person I have heard that has mentioned this sense of entitlement when discussing UNM...I find that interesting.

blaze1306
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Re: New Mexico low passage rate is causing panic

Postby blaze1306 » Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:44 pm

joeyc328 wrote:Minorities have an advantage in the admission process (more likely to have lower GPAs and LSAT scores). There are entire threads about this in the What are my chances forum.

Law School incoming classes have been getting weaker over time. (Between 2010 and incoming 2013)

Perhaps New Mexico has hit a tipping point where the minorities being accepted fall into the likely to fail the bar range (See All of Indiana Tech) when before they had GPA and LSAT standards making them less of a risk.



I don't mind saying I completely disagree with your assessment. Maybe it is my immediate reaction to this legal "tier discrimination" or the irrational belief that LSAT scores and GPA somehow directly correlate to ability. That's crap.

Allow me to get a soapbox...

There are so many other explanations to explain performance better than LSAT and GPA or where you went to school. Just because you go to a high tier school doesn't mean you learned some "secret handshake" that automatically makes you better or more prepared to pass the bar or succeed in the practice of law, its just a way to categorize and easily dismiss two supposedly lower tiered groups. I am consoled in the fact that EVERY law school has students that failed. No one believes for a second that the bar exam test your knowledge from law school. It has been shown in the past, people have taken bar review courses with no lawschool and passed the bar. I also don't believe the bar exam can tell you how smart you are. Smart in what? How to take this one test? The Bar exam is a joke. It doesn't take long reading post here of people that completely skipped questions on the bar or made up law and still passed.

There is more to it than GPA and LSAT and assuming people in law school are just "dumber" now than in the past. This article and hard scientific numbers tell me something is wrong...every, single, Native American, not all from UNM failed....40% of minorities failed.....maybe this is socio-economic. I think it maybe in my case. I'm poor I couldn't afford a bar prep course, I can put together a cognizant thought since I scored a passing grade on the written portion, but I don't know how to beat THIS test. The nuisances and tricks for this MBE are what I need to learn, I refuse to believe that dumber going in is dumber coming out and subsequently dumber taking the bar.

ClubberLang
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Re: New Mexico low passage rate is causing panic

Postby ClubberLang » Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:20 pm

Most of the data suggests a correlation between LSAT and bar passage. That could be because higher LSAT = smarter, or higher LSAT = getting in to a school that does a better job teaching the law. Either way, there's no point in refusing to believe a correlation exists when real data suggests otherwise.

My suggestion is stop being mad, forget about conspiracy theories, and try again. There's no point in trying to pin a failure on someone else because ultimately it is your career. The test is passable, you proved you are capable with a decent MEE score. Just work hard on the MBE for February.

I am curious to know what you feel is a better predictor of bar success than GPA/LSAT. If you have this wisdom, you should have no problem passing next time.

andythefir
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Re: New Mexico low passage rate is causing panic

Postby andythefir » Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:23 pm

ClubberLang wrote:Most of the data suggests a correlation between LSAT and bar passage. That could be because higher LSAT = smarter, or higher LSAT = getting in to a school that does a better job teaching the law. Either way, there's no point in refusing to believe a correlation exists when real data suggests otherwise.

My suggestion is stop being mad, forget about conspiracy theories, and try again. There's no point in trying to pin a failure on someone else because ultimately it is your career. The test is passable, you proved you are capable with a decent MEE score. Just work hard on the MBE for February.

I am curious to know what you feel is a better predictor of bar success than GPA/LSAT. If you have this wisdom, you should have no problem passing next time.


While I agree with you that higher LSAT=higher probability of passing the bar, I think New Mexico's 2016 July bar has a more nuanced explanation. Especially on a search-able site, it's valuable to share insight as to what's happening on the ground in real time. Specifically, I think there had been a traditional in-group edge given to UNM students who spent more time in law school studying Indian law, community property, etc., and then the bar examiners would consistently test on those very subjects. Now that the state has been thrown open to cold interstate objectivity, pass rates are down across the board, but UNM students in particular got caught flat footed.

ClubberLang
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Re: New Mexico low passage rate is causing panic

Postby ClubberLang » Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:48 pm

andythefir wrote:
ClubberLang wrote:Most of the data suggests a correlation between LSAT and bar passage. That could be because higher LSAT = smarter, or higher LSAT = getting in to a school that does a better job teaching the law. Either way, there's no point in refusing to believe a correlation exists when real data suggests otherwise.

My suggestion is stop being mad, forget about conspiracy theories, and try again. There's no point in trying to pin a failure on someone else because ultimately it is your career. The test is passable, you proved you are capable with a decent MEE score. Just work hard on the MBE for February.

I am curious to know what you feel is a better predictor of bar success than GPA/LSAT. If you have this wisdom, you should have no problem passing next time.


While I agree with you that higher LSAT=higher probability of passing the bar, I think New Mexico's 2016 July bar has a more nuanced explanation. Especially on a search-able site, it's valuable to share insight as to what's happening on the ground in real time. Specifically, I think there had been a traditional in-group edge given to UNM students who spent more time in law school studying Indian law, community property, etc., and then the bar examiners would consistently test on those very subjects. Now that the state has been thrown open to cold interstate objectivity, pass rates are down across the board, but UNM students in particular got caught flat footed.


Sounds like the school whiffed. Isn't UNM the only law school in New Mexico? You'd think they'd anticipate these issues, and if they thought it was a real problem they could have lobbied for the state not to go with the UBE. I can definitely see community property and Indian law being pretty important over there, so I wonder why they went UBE? In any event, the school screwing up shouldn't be solace for anyone that still needs to pass the bar to work.

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Re: New Mexico low passage rate is causing panic

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:48 pm

andythefir wrote:
ClubberLang wrote:Most of the data suggests a correlation between LSAT and bar passage. That could be because higher LSAT = smarter, or higher LSAT = getting in to a school that does a better job teaching the law. Either way, there's no point in refusing to believe a correlation exists when real data suggests otherwise.

My suggestion is stop being mad, forget about conspiracy theories, and try again. There's no point in trying to pin a failure on someone else because ultimately it is your career. The test is passable, you proved you are capable with a decent MEE score. Just work hard on the MBE for February.

I am curious to know what you feel is a better predictor of bar success than GPA/LSAT. If you have this wisdom, you should have no problem passing next time.


While I agree with you that higher LSAT=higher probability of passing the bar, I think New Mexico's 2016 July bar has a more nuanced explanation. Especially on a search-able site, it's valuable to share insight as to what's happening on the ground in real time. Specifically, I think there had been a traditional in-group edge given to UNM students who spent more time in law school studying Indian law, community property, etc., and then the bar examiners would consistently test on those very subjects. Now that the state has been thrown open to cold interstate objectivity, pass rates are down across the board, but UNM students in particular got caught flat footed.

This makes a lot of sense to me.

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Re: New Mexico low passage rate is causing panic

Postby rcharter1978 » Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:59 am

Wait, this appears to have been sent by your law school, not the bar association, right?

Sounds like a typical CYA, likely in response to lower admission standard leading to students who aren't able to pass the bar at a higher rate.

Or, it could be that in their first year of changing to the UBE, NM set the pass number too high for their own state applicants.

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Re: New Mexico low passage rate is causing panic

Postby rcharter1978 » Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:12 am

blaze1306 wrote:
joeyc328 wrote:Minorities have an advantage in the admission process (more likely to have lower GPAs and LSAT scores). There are entire threads about this in the What are my chances forum.

Law School incoming classes have been getting weaker over time. (Between 2010 and incoming 2013)

Perhaps New Mexico has hit a tipping point where the minorities being accepted fall into the likely to fail the bar range (See All of Indiana Tech) when before they had GPA and LSAT standards making them less of a risk.



I don't mind saying I completely disagree with your assessment. Maybe it is my immediate reaction to this legal "tier discrimination" or the irrational belief that LSAT scores and GPA somehow directly correlate to ability. That's crap.

Allow me to get a soapbox...

There are so many other explanations to explain performance better than LSAT and GPA or where you went to school. Just because you go to a high tier school doesn't mean you learned some "secret handshake" that automatically makes you better or more prepared to pass the bar or succeed in the practice of law, its just a way to categorize and easily dismiss two supposedly lower tiered groups. I am consoled in the fact that EVERY law school has students that failed. No one believes for a second that the bar exam test your knowledge from law school. It has been shown in the past, people have taken bar review courses with no lawschool and passed the bar. I also don't believe the bar exam can tell you how smart you are. Smart in what? How to take this one test? The Bar exam is a joke. It doesn't take long reading post here of people that completely skipped questions on the bar or made up law and still passed.

There is more to it than GPA and LSAT and assuming people in law school are just "dumber" now than in the past. This article and hard scientific numbers tell me something is wrong...every, single, Native American, not all from UNM failed....40% of minorities failed.....maybe this is socio-economic. I think it maybe in my case. I'm poor I couldn't afford a bar prep course, I can put together a cognizant thought since I scored a passing grade on the written portion, but I don't know how to beat THIS test. The nuisances and tricks for this MBE are what I need to learn, I refuse to believe that dumber going in is dumber coming out and subsequently dumber taking the bar.


Here is the thing: the LSAT is a standardized test that can be studied and gamed. But the students who most likely learned the exam inside and out and how to take it are going to be students that ended up with a higher LSAT score. Those students have some of the strategies and methods to know how to study for a standardized test.

The bar exam is also a standardized test that can be learned, studied and gamed. It would make sense to me that students that do well on the LSAT would be better prepared for bar study.

And law school GPA can and should be indicative of the ability to pass the bar exam. I had a professor put it to me like this....during law school you get all this information, and its like you put it into boxes and the boxes into a storage garage. During bar prep, you should be basically getting those boxes out, dusting them off, and getting the information inside. The biggest problem is when someone has a bunch of empty boxes in storage because they didn't learn anything or didn't do well. There are anomalies, but for the most part, I think this makes sense. You can learn certain subjects during bar review, but you shouldn't be learning them ALL during bar review.

MBE prep should be significantly less expensive than essay prep, so hopefully next time you'll be able to crush it.

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Re: New Mexico low passage rate is causing panic

Postby andythefir » Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:47 am

rcharter1978 wrote:Wait, this appears to have been sent by your law school, not the bar association, right?

Sounds like a typical CYA, likely in response to lower admission standard leading to students who aren't able to pass the bar at a higher rate.

Or, it could be that in their first year of changing to the UBE, NM set the pass number too high for their own state applicants.


The distinction between UNM and the NM bar is the precise point I am trying to make. I've never seen a market (Albuquerque and Santa Fe, to be specific) so dominated by a single school, and certainly not such a plainly ordinary school. UNM's dominance of the bar has allowed it to play fast and loose with lots of law school concepts and not suffer the wrath of employers. For example, law review doesn't even look at grades, so few people complete the write-on that just finishing it gives you a >50% chance of making law review, and admission weighs being from the state more heavily than almost any other factor. So in the state you get a whole bunch of odd combinations of credentials (bad grades and law review, for example), which in turn leads lots of employers to not rely on credentials, which in turn leads to an indifference towards legal ability. UNM + bar card=good enough for lots of employers.

UNM's dominance of the legal market, and therefore its artificially high ranking, has always been contingent on its students passing the bar in big numbers. My guess is that in days gone by marginal UNM students would pass because they knew Indian law and community property, and the bar exam would test that every single iteration. Marginal non-UNM students would not know those subjects, and so marginal candidates would fail and keep the pass rate at least somewhat low.

I am hopeful that this is the beginning of a new era in New Mexico law. I hope that UNM will start taking itself more seriously and that employers will take applications from other schools more seriously.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: New Mexico low passage rate is causing panic

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:55 am

To be fair, I don't think it's unusual that a school does a write-on-only law review (mine technically considered grades in that people in the top 10% got a very small advantage, but it had little effect). But my sense of NM is that it's very very insular (not necessarily in a bad way), so that all rings pretty true otherwise.

blaze1306
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Re: New Mexico low passage rate is causing panic

Postby blaze1306 » Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:59 am

ClubberLang wrote:Most of the data suggests a correlation between LSAT and bar passage. That could be because higher LSAT = smarter, or higher LSAT = getting in to a school that does a better job teaching the law. Either way, there's no point in refusing to believe a correlation exists when real data suggests otherwise.

My suggestion is stop being mad, forget about conspiracy theories, and try again. There's no point in trying to pin a failure on someone else because ultimately it is your career. The test is passable, you proved you are capable with a decent MEE score. Just work hard on the MBE for February.

I am curious to know what you feel is a better predictor of bar success than GPA/LSAT. If you have this wisdom, you should have no problem passing next time.


I think your over simplifying the situation. You act as if, once again, higher tier schools have some "special sauce" no one else has. That simply is not true. I will gladly put the professors I had against any in the country. I learned zoning and land use from a Partner in one of Lansings biggest firms, oil & gas from a 20 year practitioner and partner in his firm, professional responsibility from a State Bar Disciplinary board member. Blindly believing the Bar and law school rank means something is an antiquated misnomer. You completely ignored the evidence that people have taken and passed the bar WITHOUT GOING TO LAW SCHOOL. How do you explain that? They are just smarter right? How blind are you to just say "stop being mad" "pin blame on someone else" you sheep, If you could read you would see I CLEARLY stated I blame no one but myself for my failure and I fully expect to pass this game of a test. You on the other hand need to wake up, there is a glitch in the matrix. Obviously the board feels the same since they want to study what is going on. According to you stupid in stupid out...what a joke.

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Re: New Mexico low passage rate is causing panic

Postby joeyc328 » Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:08 am

You act as if, once again, higher tier schools have some "special sauce" no one else has. That simply is not true


Couldn't you argue that the "special sauce" is harder working students who got better LSAT score, a better GPA, and are more likely to pass the bar?

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Re: New Mexico low passage rate is causing panic

Postby andythefir » Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:25 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:To be fair, I don't think it's unusual that a school does a write-on-only law review (mine technically considered grades in that people in the top 10% got a very small advantage, but it had little effect). But my sense of NM is that it's very very insular (not necessarily in a bad way), so that all rings pretty true otherwise.


I'm aware that this thread was originally supposed to be about the July 2016 bar, but I really think the issues are all bound up. New Mexico is certainly insular generally, and it is not necessarily bad, but the legal market in ABQ turns it into pathology. I had one of maybe 10 summer associate spots for 50+ attorney firms in the whole state, and I was relentlessly and ruthlessly grilled about being a phony in my interest in coming to NM. I was born maybe 5 blocks from the firm, I had 4 generations of family in ABQ, and so on, but not going to UNM=not being from NM. Meanwhile one of the other summers that was from Arkansas but went to UNM law on the GI bill after being stationed in NM had no questions the whole summer.

Other data points: Justice Daniels hired his first non-UNM clerk maybe 3 years ago, Judge Bustamante used to say on the clerkship site that he only accepted UNM clerks, and a state COA judge told me you have to "kick people in the nuts" to hire non-UNM students. When I was sworn into the bar all 5 justices moved the admission of their clerks, so we had to listen to 10 motions. Yesterday I'd say there were more like 3-4, which supports the rumor is that the majority of state clerks failed the bar. Sure some clerks may have not taken the bar seriously, but an inference that the justices are not rigorously searching for legal ability is just as fair an inference.

You're right that 100% write-on law review isn't necessarily a bad thing, but as it manifests at UNM, so few people complete the write-on that it's a completely different credential than other schools. Taking all these trends together you get state supreme court clerks failing the bar, law review members failing the bar, and random folks from other schools passing it without incident.

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Re: New Mexico low passage rate is causing panic

Postby nothingtosee » Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:41 am

blaze1306 wrote:I think your over simplifying the situation. You act as if, once again, higher tier schools have some "special sauce" no one else has. That simply is not true. I will gladly put the professors I had against any in the country. I learned zoning and land use from a Partner in one of Lansings biggest firms, oil & gas from a 20 year practitioner and partner in his firm, professional responsibility from a State Bar Disciplinary board member. Blindly believing the Bar and law school rank means something is an antiquated misnomer. You completely ignored the evidence that people have taken and passed the bar WITHOUT GOING TO LAW SCHOOL. How do you explain that? They are just smarter right? How blind are you to just say "stop being mad" "pin blame on someone else" you sheep, If you could read you would see I CLEARLY stated I blame no one but myself for my failure and I fully expect to pass this game of a test. You on the other hand need to wake up, there is a glitch in the matrix. Obviously the board feels the same since they want to study what is going on. According to you stupid in stupid out...what a joke.


Massachusetts is a state with law schools at almost every tier.

Here they are ranked by US News:

2. Harvard
20. Boston U
30. Boston College
82. Northeastern

Ranking Not Published - Western New England
Ranking Not Published - Suffolk
Ranking Not Published - New England Law
Unranked - UMASS Dartmouth


Here they are ranked by MA bar pass rate:

100% - Harvard
90.3% - Boston U
87.1% - Boston College
75.2% - Northeastern
69.1% - Suffolk
64.3% - New England Law
63.0% - Western New England
38.3% - UMASS Dartmouth

blaze1306
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Re: New Mexico low passage rate is causing panic

Postby blaze1306 » Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:55 am

joeyc328 wrote:
You act as if, once again, higher tier schools have some "special sauce" no one else has. That simply is not true


Couldn't you argue that the "special sauce" is harder working students who got better LSAT score, a better GPA, and are more likely to pass the bar?



I think its just as possible this occurs..

Student X goes to Moderately ranked "easy" undergrad with a major in Poli Sci gets a 3.98 GPA studys for 6 months on how to take the LSAT gets a 160 goes to top tier school.

Me: Undegrad in Biology and Chemistry GPA 2.75, took the lSAT with 1 month notice did not study at all got a 148 and that got me into 3 low tier schools. I'm not going to toot my own horn but... harder working I doubt it. By the way student X is one of my best friends, I wish I followed his example. That doesn't make him a better student or smarter, guess which one of us has a patent.

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Re: New Mexico low passage rate is causing panic

Postby MarkinKansasCity » Wed Sep 21, 2016 12:10 pm

blaze1306 wrote:
joeyc328 wrote:
You act as if, once again, higher tier schools have some "special sauce" no one else has. That simply is not true


Couldn't you argue that the "special sauce" is harder working students who got better LSAT score, a better GPA, and are more likely to pass the bar?



I think its just as possible this occurs..

Student X goes to Moderately ranked "easy" undergrad with a major in Poli Sci gets a 3.98 GPA studys for 6 months on how to take the LSAT gets a 160 goes to top tier school.

Me: Undegrad in Biology and Chemistry GPA 2.75, took the lSAT with 1 month notice did not study at all got a 148 and that got me into 3 low tier schools. I'm not going to toot my own horn but... harder working I doubt it. By the way student X is one of my best friends, I wish I followed his example. That doesn't make him a better student or smarter, guess which one of us has a patent.


Srinivasa Ramanujan was one of the most brilliant mathematicians of all time, in spite of having little or no formal education. Therefore there's no reason to have universities teach math.

blaze1306
Posts: 153
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Re: New Mexico low passage rate is causing panic

Postby blaze1306 » Wed Sep 21, 2016 12:12 pm

MarkinKansasCity wrote:
blaze1306 wrote:
joeyc328 wrote:
You act as if, once again, higher tier schools have some "special sauce" no one else has. That simply is not true


Couldn't you argue that the "special sauce" is harder working students who got better LSAT score, a better GPA, and are more likely to pass the bar?



I think its just as possible this occurs..

Student X goes to Moderately ranked "easy" undergrad with a major in Poli Sci gets a 3.98 GPA studys for 6 months on how to take the LSAT gets a 160 goes to top tier school.

Me: Undegrad in Biology and Chemistry GPA 2.75, took the lSAT with 1 month notice did not study at all got a 148 and that got me into 3 low tier schools. I'm not going to toot my own horn but... harder working I doubt it. By the way student X is one of my best friends, I wish I followed his example. That doesn't make him a better student or smarter, guess which one of us has a patent.


Srinivasa Ramanujan was one of the most brilliant mathematicians of all time, in spite of having little or no formal education. Therefore there's no reason to have universities teach math.



No by your reasoning 2+2 at Harvard is not 2+2 any where else.....and everyone else is to stupid to get that

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MarkinKansasCity
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Re: New Mexico low passage rate is causing panic

Postby MarkinKansasCity » Wed Sep 21, 2016 12:14 pm

blaze1306 wrote:
MarkinKansasCity wrote:
blaze1306 wrote:
joeyc328 wrote:
You act as if, once again, higher tier schools have some "special sauce" no one else has. That simply is not true


Couldn't you argue that the "special sauce" is harder working students who got better LSAT score, a better GPA, and are more likely to pass the bar?



I think its just as possible this occurs..

Student X goes to Moderately ranked "easy" undergrad with a major in Poli Sci gets a 3.98 GPA studys for 6 months on how to take the LSAT gets a 160 goes to top tier school.

Me: Undegrad in Biology and Chemistry GPA 2.75, took the lSAT with 1 month notice did not study at all got a 148 and that got me into 3 low tier schools. I'm not going to toot my own horn but... harder working I doubt it. By the way student X is one of my best friends, I wish I followed his example. That doesn't make him a better student or smarter, guess which one of us has a patent.


Srinivasa Ramanujan was one of the most brilliant mathematicians of all time, in spite of having little or no formal education. Therefore there's no reason to have universities teach math.



No by your reasoning 2+2 at Harvard is not 2+2 any where else.....and everyone else is to stupid to get that


wut

I was just offering an analogy to what you're doing... which is anecdataing the shit out of this.




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