NY may be going to UBE as of July... Forum

[AJS30]

http://www.newyorklawjournal.com/home/i ... 0907205356

http://www.scba.org/post/UBE.pdf

[sd5289]

Just saw. Can't tell if this is good for us or bad for us.

[Tanicius]

LOL

So let's get this straight. One of the most populous states in America, with the most lawyers in America, and with some of the most relatively specific, weird state law in the country, wants to teach and test its incoming lawyers on law that doesn't apply to New York.

Amazing.

If you're just testing to make people miserable and see if they can jump through stupid hoops or memorize material or think quickly, then just make everyone take a physical obstacle course and pass a timed round of Sodoku. Same fucking value as bar exams that don't have any state-specific law. When states with lots of state-specific law on their bar exams move to the MEE or UBE, it strikes me as a flagrant admission that the bar exam is no longer even pretending to be relevant.

[sd5289]

^ My understanding from the proposal is that NY law would be tested, but in a 50 Q MC section.

[sparty99]

no bar

[Bildungsroman]

LOL

So let's get this straight. One of the most populous states in America, with the most lawyers in America, and with some of the most relatively specific, weird state law in the country, wants to teach and test its incoming lawyers on law that doesn't apply to New York.

Amazing.

If you're just testing to make people miserable and see if they can jump through stupid hoops or memorize material or think quickly, then just make everyone take a physical obstacle course and pass a timed round of Sodoku. Same fucking value as bar exams that don't have any state-specific law. When states with lots of state-specific law on their bar exams move to the MEE or UBE, it strikes me as a flagrant admission that the bar exam is no longer even pretending to be relevant.

There should be a state-specific bar for people who will be spending all their time in state court applying state law, and there should be a general bar or no bar for people who need as much knowledge of NY-specific terms for future interests as they need a working knowledge of the plot of Ghostbusters 2.

[Tanicius]

That's a very fair point. Frankly, there should probably be five different bars you can take -- one emphasizing leases and contracts, one emphasizing criminal law, one emphasizing torts and law suits, etc. If you want to practice in areas involving more than one of those specialties, then you gotta take more than one bar.

[sparty99]

That's a very fair point. Frankly, there should probably be five different bars you can take -- one emphasizing leases and contracts, one emphasizing criminal law, one emphasizing torts and law suits, etc. If you want to practice in areas involving more than one of those specialties, then you gotta take more than one bar.

There should be no bar. If I studied this for 3 years then I should know the law. No need to have a test. I'll have to find out the law when my client has a problem. It is just dumb. If Wisconsin can have no bar then the other 49 states can do away with it too. Like Iowa is coming to their senses.

[Arbinshire]

I was speaking with a state justice a few weeks ago, and he likened the bar to a hazing ritual while admitting it gave little indication as to ability. He admitted it would never go away because older attorneys are of the opinion that if they had to go through it, so too should new attorneys.

[AreJay711]

^ My understanding from the proposal is that NY law would be tested, but in a 50 Q MC section.

That would suck. The NY multiple choice was brutal. You can kind of BS your way through state specific essays.

[sd5289]

There should be no bar. If I studied this for 3 years then I should know the law. No need to have a test. I'll have to find out the law when my client has a problem. It is just dumb. If Wisconsin can have no bar then the other 49 states can do away with it too. Like Iowa is coming to their senses.

An attorney friend of mine made an excellent point when she said that the bar exam mimics what would otherwise be malpractice in real life.

"Oh, you would like legal advice on this intricately complicated fact pattern, a/k/a your life? Hang on and let me rack my brain in the fastest way possible...I know I remember something about this!"

[notedgarfigaro]

oh god, requiring a 30 out of 50 on the NY MC would be awful...which they're pretty much admitting by wanting to have additional test dates just for the NY MC.

[ditch digger]

I took the UBE in July, and frankly, I'm in favor of more jurisdictions adopting the UBE since it makes my score more portable. As far as not knowing the idiosyncrasies of the law in my jurisdiction, it's not that hard to become more acquainted with it.

[sparty99]

oh god, requiring a 30 out of 50 on the NY MC would be awful...which they're pretty much admitting by wanting to have additional test dates just for the NY MC.

Is 60% difficult? Isn't 60% on the MPRE passing?

[Tanicius]

oh god, requiring a 30 out of 50 on the NY MC would be awful...which they're pretty much admitting by wanting to have additional test dates just for the NY MC.

Is 60% difficult? Isn't 60% on the MPRE passing?

State-specific multiple choice questions are rare, and they are typically very hard. It's a bitch getting 50+% correct on the Florida multiple choice, for example, I heard.

[sparty99]

But isn't the exam still roughly the same? You still have 50 New York questions. You just don't have the state essays, but you will have MBE essays instead and an extra MPT.

What was the general passing requirement on the current New York portion?

[notedgarfigaro]

But isn't the exam still roughly the same? You still have 50 New York questions. You just don't have the state essays, but you will have MBE essays instead and an extra MPT.

What was the general passing requirement on the current New York portion?

There is no minimum passing score on the NY portion (the MC only counts for 10%), and the NY MC are traditionally absurdly hard. I believe my % correct during bar prep hovered between 40-50% versus 80% for the MBE practice questions.

[FlanAl]

I took the UBE in July, and frankly, I'm in favor of more jurisdictions adopting the UBE since it makes my score more portable. As far as not knowing the idiosyncrasies of the law in my jurisdiction, it's not that hard to become more acquainted with it.

As a fellow UBEier I agree. Do you think that with their separate New York portion we will still be able to waive in with our UBE scores from this summer?

[jarofsoup]

After taking the CA bar, which I never think will go UBE I think this is a perfect idea.

It is not like the bar exam really tests anything besides your ability to take the bar exam. Cutting down geographic restraints is a big win for law students and lawyers. Conversely, if I wanted to practice in NY I would take the MN bar because it is a UBE state with like a 90% pass rate and waive in and skip the NY exam.

[sd5289]

After taking the CA bar, which I never think will go UBE I think this is a perfect idea.

It is not like the bar exam really tests anything besides your ability to take the bar exam. Cutting down geographic restraints is a big win for law students and lawyers. Conversely, if I wanted to practice in NY I would take the MN bar because it is a UBE state with like a 90% pass rate and waive in and skip the NY exam.

My understanding from a presentation on this yesterday was that if you're trying to waive in within the first few years after you took the UBE in whatever state you take it in, you'd have to pass some kind of NYLE equivalent. Obviously if you've been practicing for 10 years in Minneapolis, you'd go for reciprocity instead.

[FlanAl]

That's awesome. Anyone know if there will be a definitive answer on this by the deadline to register for February's exam?
Thanks

[sd5289]

That's awesome. Anyone know if there will be a definitive answer on this by the deadline to register for February's exam?
Thanks

Again from the presentation I went to on this, changes won't go into effect until at least the July 2015 exam (if they go in effect).

[MCG]

Tanicius has it right, in my opinion. The case for the UBE is unpersuasive. The sole argument in favor is that it may provide portability. Better reciprocity agreements with other states would also provide portability, however, without the risks of the UBE. Indeed, even the extent of portability is unclear, since a number of UBE states require candidates to pass a state law exam in addition the UBE.

I am a bar-exam prep expert who has written two study guides, one for the essays and one for the MPT, and I have been preparing students for the New York bar exam for more than 20 years. One purpose of the bar exam is to protect the public. Another is to strengthen bar candidates' knowledge of local law. Even though the BOLE proposes adding a 50-question multiple-choice test on New York law, the UBE seems to me to be weak on both counts. New York has a great deal of law that differs from other states' law, but the UBE tests on law that is neither New York law nor common law. In addition, the subjects tested on the UBE are not those with the broadest relevance to practice in New York. Currently, the New York essays almost invariably test on Contracts and UCC, because New York is a commercial state. The UBE, however, can go for years without testing on Contracts and UCC.

I have other reservations about how well spending time preparing to take the UBE will prepare candidates for practicing law in New York, including doubting that the intensity and thoroughness will be the same. Preparing for even a challenging multiple-choice test will not receive the same attention as preparing for five 45-minute essays.

Finally, the UBE essays (the Multistate Essay Exam) are not intensive legal questions, they are questions demanding advocacy more than knowledge of the law. The current New York essays are an examination by and for practitioners. The MEE questions more closely resemble law school questions or, still more, practice questions for a debate.

In sum, no gain in portability is likely to compensate for the loss of the New York essays.

Mod edit to remove commercial information. Please read this.

[sideroxylon]

Tanicius has it right, in my opinion. The case for the UBE is unpersuasive. The sole argument in favor is that it may provide portability. Better reciprocity agreements with other states would also provide portability, however, without the risks of the UBE. Indeed, even the extent of portability is unclear, since a number of UBE states require candidates to pass a state law exam in addition the UBE.

I am a bar-exam prep expert who has written two study guides, one for the essays and one for the MPT, and I have been preparing students for the New York bar exam for more than 20 years. One purpose of the bar exam is to protect the public. Another is to strengthen bar candidates' knowledge of local law. Even though the BOLE proposes adding a 50-question multiple-choice test on New York law, the UBE seems to me to be weak on both counts. New York has a great deal of law that differs from other states' law, but the UBE tests on law that is neither New York law nor common law. In addition, the subjects tested on the UBE are not those with the broadest relevance to practice in New York. Currently, the New York essays almost invariably test on Contracts and UCC, because New York is a commercial state. The UBE, however, can go for years without testing on Contracts and UCC.

I have other reservations about how well spending time preparing to take the UBE will prepare candidates for practicing law in New York, including doubting that the intensity and thoroughness will be the same. Preparing for even a challenging multiple-choice test will not receive the same attention as preparing for five 45-minute essays.

Finally, the UBE essays (the Multistate Essay Exam) are not intensive legal questions, they are questions demanding advocacy more than knowledge of the law. The current New York essays are an examination by and for practitioners. The MEE questions more closely resemble law school questions or, still more, practice questions for a debate.

In sum, no gain in portability is likely to compensate for the loss of the New York essays.

jesus christ this is stupid and i'm really amused that you decided to post here, mary

you don't have any financial interest in this at all, do you?

[A. Nony Mouse]

I would love to know if there's any correlation between the rigor/state-law content of the bar exam and percentage of lawyers who get investigated by the state bar association for incompetence. I'm willing to bet there's almost none.