Penn Students Taking Questions Forum

[Georgiana]

I've picked up on the pro gay slant at Penn. Is it to the point that you are ridiculed as ignorant if you are not of the same viewpoint or interested in GLBTQ issues?

Being uninterested in the issue won't make a difference. The only time it comes up in class is during con law and people are accepting of other viewpoints (though in general I don't recommend professing "hate" for any type of group in class). As far as being of a different viewpoint generally... you will find people of all types in law school, but liberals are definitely more prominent and outspoken at Penn (at least in my class and during an election year...). The LGBT group at Penn is very tight knit and active... conservative groups not so much. If you have more specific questions that you don't want to post in an open thread feel free to PM me.

[kurama20]

I've picked up on the pro gay slant at Penn. Is it to the point that you are ridiculed as ignorant if you are not of the same viewpoint or interested in GLBTQ issues?

Being uninterested in the issue won't make a difference. The only time it comes up in class is during con law and people are accepting of other viewpoints (though in general I don't recommend professing "hate" for any type of group in class). As far as being of a different viewpoint generally... you will find people of all types in law school, but liberals are definitely more prominent and outspoken at Penn (at least in my class and during an election year...). The LGBT group at Penn is very tight knit and active... conservative groups not so much. If you have more specific questions that you don't want to post in an open thread feel free to PM me.

Thanks. It's not that I plan on spewing messages of "hate" for any group; it's just that a lot of times I feel like there is this vibe amongst the more liberal schools that if you are not in line with all of these views you are sort of shunned and put down as "ignorant". I have always gotten this vibe from Penn and NYU even more so than the others. Actually I had been getting it so much from Penn that I was thinking about not even applying even though I like the school. And I'm not even a conservative; it's just that compared to the hyper liberal vibe I'm getting from Penn I am.

[Georgiana]

Thanks. It's not that I plan on spewing messages of "hate" for any group; it's just that a lot of times I feel like there is this vibe amongst the more liberal schools that if you are not in line with all of these views you are sort of shunned and put down as "ignorant". I have always gotten this vibe from Penn and NYU even more so than the others. Actually I had been getting it so much from Penn that I was thinking about not even applying even though I like the school. And I'm not even a conservative; it's just that compared to the hyper liberal vibe I'm getting from Penn I am.

I wasn't trying to say you would spew hate, just putting it out there that if you're a christian conservative against homosexuals, reproductive rights, etc and so forth, it may not be the best choice... That said, I do know people who are against all of those things and are still at Penn. You find people that not necessarily agree but will listen without jumping down your throat. There are people who will judge you for your beliefs, but this is true everywhere and based more on the individuals than the school. Law schools tend to be made up of liberals, some are more open and accepting of non liberal ideas than others

I am probably in the same position you are in, before law school I would never have claimed to be conservative but goodness does the law school make me feel like I am a freaking republican of all things lol. I don't have anything against the social rights people are fighting for, I'm just not on board with the Obama devotion/ridiculous spending etc. Its better now that the election is over though so I have hope that next year's 1L's will have less political turmoil.

I wouldn't not apply because of a liberal vibe. If you've visited and just don't see yourself here and don't have the $ for the app fee then by all means apply to places you would realistically attend.

If you've got other questions let me know!

[Kretzy]

Thanks again for all your help!

What sort of vibe do students get regarding study abroad? Do many choose to participate, or is it viewed as some sort of "lesser legal study" than taking classes on campus? Just how obnoxious are the gunners in the first year class? Manageable, or ridiculous? I understand that many T14 students are of that personality, but I'm hoping for some sort of collaborative student environment as I found during undergrad.

[Georgiana]

Thanks again for all your help!

What sort of vibe do students get regarding study abroad? Do many choose to participate, or is it viewed as some sort of "lesser legal study" than taking classes on campus?

I don't know too much about the study abroad program, I know it is available and there was a meeting about it last year. I don't thank anyone looks down on it though.

Just how obnoxious are the gunners in the first year class? Manageable, or ridiculous? I understand that many T14 students are of that personality, but I'm hoping for some sort of collaborative student environment as I found during undergrad.

The gunners aren't so bad Some people talk more than others, that's basically the definition at Penn. Its not the mean gunner story. I don't think its a bad thing, someone needs to talk so I don't have to haha. Its not cut throat at all, just stressful. Everyone is willing to help people out, its a good environment in my opinion

[bjtnj]

I understand Wharton's Lauder program is now taking a few law students. Do you know anyone in the program? It sounds like a great opportunity to increase one's proficiency in a foreign language, but I am concerned that the intensive summer language program following 1L would be a disadvantage because the students would not be doing anything law-related.

I'd like to chime in if I could. I am also a rising 2L at Penn and though I think I was in a different section than the other Penn-posters here (I was in section 1), I share many of the great opinions and perspectives they've already expressed. As to the above question, I have a good friend who is in the Lauder program and is currently in Beijing perfecting his Mandarin. He absolutely loves it, and it IS a wonderful opportunity to improve you language. Just before being sent out to the wilds of China, the Lauder program put him through a few very intensive business and language-oriented courses that both challenged him and taught him a lot. Even though the month-long (or so) classes were quite intensive and were in play while everyone else was relaxing post-finals, my Lauder friend was extremely impressed with how the classes were run, and the way his fellow Lauder students worked together in a very "Wharton-esque" way. It sounded great and like a breath of fresh air for him.

Also, I don't necessarily agree that Lauder students are at a disadvantage at all. Like Georgiana mentioned earlier, there are Penn Law students summering in many many offices and locations worldwide. I even have several friends in Europe, a friend in Venezuela, another in Mexico, and at least one (but maybe two) are currently in Taiwan. That said, the diversity of poisitons within the US is pretty amazing as well. I have several friends in US Attorney's offices (including myself), a few landed firm gigs, several are with Magistrate Judges, state judges, non-profits, Fed District Judges, and institutions. This is all to describe that the type of work done over the 1L summer is extremely varied, and the 3 Legal Rs (Reading, Riting, and Research) are experienced with similar variation. At OCR, there will be many people who have a nice, polished writing sample to show their interviewers, others who will be able to talk of how their summer positions well reflected their passions, and others (like Lauder students) who will be able to talk not only about their amazing cross-cultural experiences and international team building, but their foreign language fluency as well. I suppose I'm saying that spending your 1L summer abroad with the Lauder program not only helps you to come across as a very interesting person, but polishes language skills that are an increasing priority for firm recruiters. In my opinion, you will certainly not be at a disadvantage if you pursue that avenue.

1. We have to pay to use the Pottruck Center right?

The Pottruck center is an amazing gym. My wife and I were both members there last year, and we plan on continuing our membership through graduation. I forget exactly how much it was, but I think it cost us roughly $200/year for each of our memberships. TOtally worth it if you live nearby.

I wasn't trying to say you would spew hate, just putting it out there that if you're a christian conservative against homosexuals, reproductive rights, etc and so forth, it may not be the best choice... That said, I do know people who are against all of those things and are still at Penn. You find people that not necessarily agree but will listen without jumping down your throat. There are people who will judge you for your beliefs, but this is true everywhere and based more on the individuals than the school. Law schools tend to be made up of liberals, some are more open and accepting of non liberal ideas than others

I completely agree with this sentiment. Being a bit more conservative on some issues than what seems to be the average Penn student, I've been very pleased to have had great, non-confrontational conversations with many of my more liberal classmates on some of the more hot-button issues mentioned by Georgiana. One of the great things about Penn Law is that it provides a forum comprised of very intelligent and nuanced individuals, who can (usually) recognize and understand the nuances in others' viewpoints. While we certainly have more reactionary-type students here as well (from both sides of the political spectrum), I have wonderful friends and have had great conversations with classmates with whose political positions I don't agree (and them with mine, I'm sure). Having an opinion on when life starts or sexual morality or fiscal maturity (spin!) is not wrong from any perspective, but to grow and develop that opinion requries engagement across the spectrum and with an open mind to the nuances and reasons behind others' opinions as well. Fundamentally, nobody can completely explain their positions because at some point we all rest on an "It's just what I believe" foundation. Thankfully I've found many students from the other side who are willing to engage on that interesting and mature level. I wouldn't worry.

The LGBT group at Penn is very tight knit and active... conservative groups not so much

In my experience, the LGBT group is a very active and engaged group, and they offer some very compelling forums and discussions for getting their messages out there. As to the more conservative groups, I have to disagree with Georgiana on this one. The Federalist Society (generally the standard-bearers for the "right") holds many very well-attended forums throughout the year on all the hot-button issues. They usually pair with the ACS (the generic standard-bearers for the "left") to choose their topics and speakers, and the debates are often very fascinating. I am actually a member of the ACS (not the Federalist Society), but in my opinion there are some very prominent and visible conservative groups on campus. Of them, the Federalist Society is probably most at the front and "center."


Hope this helps!

~bjtnj

[acertainslantoflight]

markymark wrote:
1. We have to pay to use the Pottruck Center right?


The Pottruck center is an amazing gym. My wife and I were both members there last year, and we plan on continuing our membership through graduation. I forget exactly how much it was, but I think it cost us roughly $200/year for each of our memberships. TOtally worth it if you live nearby.

Does this mean that there isn't a gym that is free to students? I know that might not seem like a huge deal, but I definitely need a gym membership to manage stress so I would like to factor that into the budget, however small an amount it might be.

Thanks!

[Georgiana]

In my experience, the LGBT group is a very active and engaged group, and they offer some very compelling forums and discussions for getting their messages out there. As to the more conservative groups, I have to disagree with Georgiana on this one. The Federalist Society (generally the standard-bearers for the "right") holds many very well-attended forums throughout the year on all the hot-button issues. They usually pair with the ACS (the generic standard-bearers for the "left") to choose their topics and speakers, and the debates are often very fascinating. I am actually a member of the ACS (not the Federalist Society), but in my opinion there are some very prominent and visible conservative groups on campus. Of them, the Federalist Society is probably most at the front and "center."

Just to clarify my fed soc position. I know most of the people in it and was a little involved in it during the fall semester. They do have some great events/talks but the group isnt nearly as tight knit as the other groups at the law school. Their events are usually cosponsored with a group that supports the opposite viewpoint so there are rarely pure fedsoc events. Its not as though you identify with fedsoc and have this built in close knit group of friends which is how I felt Lambda worked and to a lesser extent ACS.

[random248]

Just to clarify my fed soc position. I know most of the people in it and was a little involved in it during the fall semester. They do have some great events/talks but the group isnt nearly as tight knit as the other groups at the law school. Their events are usually cosponsored with a group that supports the opposite viewpoint so there are rarely pure fedsoc events. Its not as though you identify with fedsoc and have this built in close knit group of friends which is how I felt Lambda worked and to a lesser extent ACS.

As you know, I know nothing about fedsoc. Just a point/question -- isn't Penn hosting the national student convention next year? Or am I mistaken? I thought you/someone had mentioned this. If so, I wonder if that will bring the group closer together, provide a lot more opportunity to have a more balanced perspective represented at school events, etc.

[Georgiana]

As you know, I know nothing about fedsoc. Just a point/question -- isn't Penn hosting the national student convention next year? Or am I mistaken? I thought you/someone had mentioned this. If so, I wonder if that will bring the group closer together, provide a lot more opportunity to have a more balanced perspective represented at school events, etc.

Oh you're right! "You know who" came up with the winning idea for the student convention next year. They likely picked Penn because Penn was the only top east coast school that hadn't held it before. It may bring the group closer... but I still doubt it will be the friendship finding place, those guys (yes, they are 99% guys) are all about work I duno, just from knowing the people in charge, they're all smart guys, but they have other priorities, not being this welcoming "make everyone friends" vibe. Maybe it will change this year?

[Shaggier1]

Thanks to the Penn folks taking questions.

Do any of you have inside knowledge of the public interest community at Penn? Specifically, how much support is there from the faculty and administration for students looking to pursue careers in public interest fields?

My sense is that Penn attracts a lot of folks looking for Big Law in NYC and DC; however, I am impressed with their LRAP program, the Toll scholarship, and their new public-interest fellowship for graduates.

Any insight?

Thanks!

[Georgiana]

Thanks to the Penn folks taking questions.

Do any of you have inside knowledge of the public interest community at Penn? Specifically, how much support is there from the faculty and administration for students looking to pursue careers in public interest fields?

My sense is that Penn attracts a lot of folks looking for Big Law in NYC and DC; however, I am impressed with their LRAP program, the Toll scholarship, and their new public-interest fellowship for graduates.

Any insight?

Thanks!

I have no personal experience... I'm not the public interest type

The support for public interest though is definitely there. Everyone is required to do pro bono at Penn and you can get involved as early as you want (even as a 1L!). Sorry I can't give anything more... I'm not sure any of the other Penn people on here will be much better You can definitely call the public interest center and ask them anything, they can't be too busy yet

[HokkaidoGyuNyu]

How do those below median at Penn do in terms of BigLaw placement?

And how wide is the range of students in each class that would be considered "median"?

[Georgiana]

How do those below median at Penn do in terms of BigLaw placement?

And how wide is the range of students in each class that would be considered "median"?

Preface: I know you PM'd me and I will respond, I just have lots going on with OCI and life and those questions are more in depth than these!

Post: Below median this year will have it rough, simple as that. Median this year will likely have it rough. We don't know how many people are "median" because we dont know anything about GPAs or rankings or anything at all really. We know our grades and the grades of people who happen to share with us. It is annoying and nice all at the same time. It would be nice to know if I was top 20% versus top 30% because this year those kinds of things would make a difference. The good thing is that employers don't know any more than we do about where we fall in the class so it is a little more difficult for them to have percentage cutoffs for hiring (aka "will only take top 25% of class" won't really work at Penn).

Hope this was helpful! Sorry I can't say what happens to below median/median ITE or any other economy, this is the first time I've done recruiting and can only judge by what I've seen so far. It is scary. But as a classmate eloquently put it... we are cautiously optimistic.

[Eliza]

Thanks for answering questions:

I just began classes as a 1L today and I recently purchased the Legal Path Series as a supplement--is this a good supplement? What are good supplements for my courses?

Classes

Property
Contracts and Sales
Torts
LARC---legal analysis and resarch andcommunication
Civil Procedure

any advice would be helpful! Thanks!

[Georgiana]

Thanks for answering questions:

I just began classes as a 1L today and I recently purchased the Legal Path Series as a supplement--is this a good supplement? What are good supplements for my courses?

Classes

Property
Contracts and Sales
Torts
LARC---legal analysis and resarch andcommunication
Civil Procedure

any advice would be helpful! Thanks!

Happy to help...

Property: I had Gilberts but did not really use it
Contracts: Read all of Farnsworth and Understanding Contracts, both were ok, unless your prof specifically mentions Farnsworth I wouldnt bother.
Torts: I had Understanding Torts, it was helpful to a point, but torts really isn't too hard to master.
Civ Pro: Anything with Glannon's name on it The E&E is great.

As you can see I wasn't a big hornbook person... I never wanted to add more to my reading lol. I have no idea what the legal path series is so I can't comment on it.

Good luck with 1L, let me know if you ever have questions!

[HokkaidoGyuNyu]

How do those below median at Penn do in terms of BigLaw placement?

And how wide is the range of students in each class that would be considered "median"?

Preface: I know you PM'd me and I will respond, I just have lots going on with OCI and life and those questions are more in depth than these!

Post: Below median this year will have it rough, simple as that. Median this year will likely have it rough. We don't know how many people are "median" because we dont know anything about GPAs or rankings or anything at all really. We know our grades and the grades of people who happen to share with us. It is annoying and nice all at the same time. It would be nice to know if I was top 20% versus top 30% because this year those kinds of things would make a difference. The good thing is that employers don't know any more than we do about where we fall in the class so it is a little more difficult for them to have percentage cutoffs for hiring (aka "will only take top 25% of class" won't really work at Penn).

Hope this was helpful! Sorry I can't say what happens to below median/median ITE or any other economy, this is the first time I've done recruiting and can only judge by what I've seen so far. It is scary. But as a classmate eloquently put it... we are cautiously optimistic.

Well, I have to admit I'm surprised. I thought that Penn was a BigLaw mill and that since its class size is rather small, median would be fine (and, although I should have mentioned it before, I was assuming a normal economy).

About you not knowing your GPA/ranking, is that because Penn doesn't publish it?

Thanks for answering questions and good luck with OCI!

[Georgiana]

How do those below median at Penn do in terms of BigLaw placement?

And how wide is the range of students in each class that would be considered "median"?

Preface: I know you PM'd me and I will respond, I just have lots going on with OCI and life and those questions are more in depth than these!

Post: Below median this year will have it rough, simple as that. Median this year will likely have it rough. We don't know how many people are "median" because we dont know anything about GPAs or rankings or anything at all really. We know our grades and the grades of people who happen to share with us. It is annoying and nice all at the same time. It would be nice to know if I was top 20% versus top 30% because this year those kinds of things would make a difference. The good thing is that employers don't know any more than we do about where we fall in the class so it is a little more difficult for them to have percentage cutoffs for hiring (aka "will only take top 25% of class" won't really work at Penn).

Hope this was helpful! Sorry I can't say what happens to below median/median ITE or any other economy, this is the first time I've done recruiting and can only judge by what I've seen so far. It is scary. But as a classmate eloquently put it... we are cautiously optimistic.

Well, I have to admit I'm surprised. I thought that Penn was a BigLaw mill and that since its class size is rather small, median would be fine (and, although I should have mentioned it before, I was assuming a normal economy).

About you not knowing your GPA/ranking, is that because Penn doesn't publish it?

Thanks for answering questions and good luck with OCI!

In a normal economy our biglaw placement is wonderful (check out one of those nalp charts if you haven't already). Who knows when normal will return though...

As far as grades go, we obv are able to calculate our own gpas but this is of little help in knowing where we stand in relation to others. The registrar does not rank or calc gpas. At grad they do have latin honors and order of the coif so there is some ranking at that time.

[HokkaidoGyuNyu]

In a normal economy our biglaw placement is wonderful (check out one of those nalp charts if you haven't already). Who knows when normal will return though...

As far as grades go, we obv are able to calculate our own gpas but this is of little help in knowing where we stand in relation to others. The registrar does not rank or calc gpas. At grad they do have latin honors and order of the coif so there is some ranking at that time.

I see.

[christmaslove]

Sorry, another question

How good is the international human rights program there? or just international law in general? I went to the website but it doesn't seem like an area they really focus on.

[Georgiana]

Sorry, another question

How good is the international human rights program there? or just international law in general? I went to the website but it doesn't seem like an area they really focus on.

I will likely provide a longer answer later once I look into this more...

But I can say that Burke-White is gone for at least a few years. He was our big international law guy. We have DeLisle who is great for Chinese law and I'm sure there are a few others, but its not Penn's big thing. International Law is one of the options for your elective second semester of 1L so that is a plus.

Back with more info later!

[Helmholtz]

Knowing what you do about Penn and this economy, would you think it's a good idea to take out the loans for full tuition? Is it worth it? Are there widespread on-campus meltdowns?

[raveler]

Knowing what you do about Penn and this economy, would you think it's a good idea to take out the loans for full tuition? Is it worth it? Are there widespread on-campus meltdowns?

Okay we are DEFINITELY not far enough into OCI for that to start happening.

[riccardo426]

BUMP. Just started as a 1L, and would be happy to help anyone out, either in this thread or via PM.

[23fulltimecowboys]

Does anyone know much about the Delaware Riverkeepers externship? Seems like Penn is a little shy on environmental law classes, no journal...