Penn Students Taking Questions Forum

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
LSstudent

New
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:08 pm

Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Post by LSstudent » Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:39 am

Socratease wrote:
Auxilio wrote:
Socratease wrote:
Auxilio wrote:
Socratease wrote:Most likely will be headed to Penn next fall! Will be moving with my SO. It will be our first time living in Philly and my first time living in a major city. Thoughts on living in the Art Museum area as a 1L?
It's not a horrible area although I would encourage you to go a bit south. I think the best places are between 29th and 19th and JFK and Walnut.
Thanks! We've got a budget of 1500/mo and are looking for a 1br. Do you think it'd be possible to find something like this in the area you mentioned? We were thinking we might get more bang for our buck outside of Rittenhouse/Center City, although we don't know Philly well and this might be a faulty assumption.
That would have been possible when I was looking for apartments, but it might be a little low now for a 1 bed. Personally I think I would try to look further south (down to South st.) in that same area before going North up to the art museum area though.
I'll definitely check out that area, thanks. I'm curious, is there any one thing driving your preference (e.g. safety/nightlife/parks etc.)?
There are students who live in the Art Museum/Fairmount neighborhoods and get to school by bus/trolley. It is a very safe area, with much less students and more young professionals than the usual Rittenhouse/University City options. Living in Art Museum/Fairmount will be made much easier starting next year given the new SEPTA Route 49 bus.

r6_philly

Diamond
Posts: 10751
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:32 pm

Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Post by r6_philly » Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:47 am

Also on transit options: Uber Express Pool is generally not much more expensive (if any) than SEPTA with 1 transfer. And much more convenient. You will have more options and save on rent.

I lived in the burbs even during law school (I was already living there), and it was not really any less convenient but I paid less on my mortgage than some of my friend's rents. We have some really cool suburbs within 30 minutes from the school.

Auxilio

Silver
Posts: 798
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2014 3:51 pm

Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Post by Auxilio » Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:19 pm

I'll clarify what I said above: I think if you can justify it Centre City/Graduate Hospital is the best choice to live, but that's not to say there are really "wrong" places to live. It's a pretty good wider area, even including the suburbs as r6 mentioned if you don't mind a bit longer commute. I personally was glad I didn't choose to live west of the school, but I think I would have been happy in a ton of places.

sacagawea

New
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:09 pm

Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Post by sacagawea » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:52 pm

da.goat wrote:(also wondering about Gordon for property)
Gordon’s a fox

sacagawea

New
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:09 pm

Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Post by sacagawea » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:57 pm

Bbbrian wrote:I have a random question that I know there isn't a perfect answer for, but I was wondering about how generous the law school is with handing out need-based grants? I know you have to complete a FAFSA and Need Access application, but assuming my FAFSA gives me a 0 EFC and Need Access form is filled out by a single mother, on disability, with no other income and little savings, how much NEED BASED fin aid could someone expect?

I'm assuming the higher need based grants for the most in-need students is around 15k/year, but before I apply ED with the understanding that I won't receive any merit based scholarship, I'm trying to get the best measure of the likelihood that I could get offered some type of need based grant. Even 5k a year would be helpful. Any personal experience with need-based aid from Penn Law would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
i got $30k need-based, yr 1, after an ED acceptance. seems unusually high. my personal essay might have done some of the work earning that ; ) milk it boi

Want to continue reading?

Register now to search topics and post comments!

Absolutely FREE!


Splitting_Headache

New
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:44 pm

Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Post by Splitting_Headache » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:54 pm

Hi Penn students,

Would anyone mind taking a few questions from a 0L who just submitted their application?

1. What's the social life like? Do students get together for parties or events frequently in big groups, or more with small groups of friends? Is there anything like UVA's feb club, where they have parties every day for a month? Are there many law school sponsored events?

2. If you took out huge loans to attend, do you regret it? Do you wish you went to a lower ranked school on a full ride?

3. How many would you say get 1L SA positions who are not minorities?

4. What is the typical study schedule for a 1L? How stressed would you say the student body is generally?

Cheers!

wildcatatpenn

New
Posts: 70
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:40 am

Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Post by wildcatatpenn » Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:27 pm

Splitting_Headache wrote:Hi Penn students,

Would anyone mind taking a few questions from a 0L who just submitted their application?

1. What's the social life like? Do students get together for parties or events frequently in big groups, or more with small groups of friends? Is there anything like UVA's feb club, where they have parties every day for a month? Are there many law school sponsored events?

2. If you took out huge loans to attend, do you regret it? Do you wish you went to a lower ranked school on a full ride?

3. How many would you say get 1L SA positions who are not minorities?

4. What is the typical study schedule for a 1L? How stressed would you say the student body is generally?

Cheers!
hola, not a regular here whatsoever.. Like you I posted a little bit before LS, went to Penn, and then basically never came back until the other day to ask 1 question. So ya. Randomly clicked this thread I haven't seen in years and years, so hey, fun to reminisce. Feel free to DM too if u want, but no promises I'll remember to check again lol

I'm a little hesitant to put too many IDing details out there with my other posts, but context does matter I think, so.... For context, I'd say I went to Penn when the Pope visited Philly, during the Aaron Hernandez saga, and before Trump was elected.

I'll also add, I'm not part of the NY crowd, which made up maybe 75% of the class. I did IIRC 1 interview in NY, but didn't have much interest. I've worked in "Biglaw" or biglaw-ish at 3 firms in 3 relatively major cities, if u include summer associate as "worked." I'm still at one of these kinds of firms, but not loving it, and haven't in a good while.



------

1) I think it's about what you'd expect at any other small school. I'd say it was fairly cliquey. Not necessarily in a bad way but in a small ish class, with a super diverse cross section, I think there's naturally a small ish group of ppl that are the sort of ppl you'd tend to hang out with and stuff.

No idea what UVA Fed club is. Penn has Bar review, which is okay. Beginning of the year at bar review is pretty lit and everyone goes.. By the end of the year very few would go, either studying for finals or off with friends somewhere else on a thurs night

If you're a fun person to be around and you wanted to party and stuff, you'll have fun, Philly's a really fun city. The big Penn law events are pretty fun.. I wouldn't say there's a lot, but like Fight Night, prom or whatever it was called, some of the other big class events like that, were all pretty fun.... and then just partying with your friends out in Philly is a blast to. I won't even pretend to know Charlottesville, but I'd imagine that's a difference... Philly is a legit city, not a college town. The college scene at Penn is pretty shitty if you compare it to a legit party school, but tbh the vast majority of ppl at Penn Law had zero interest in mingling with undergrads. For whatever reason u wanna ascribe to that, I'm sure u can come up with ur reasons there.

2) I took, and still have fatty fatty loans. I'm on the income-based repayment program forever train pretty much. I make good $ too, but the loan payments aren't that bad, kinda like another rent payment, and eventually they'll go away lol. I don't refinance b/c the ability to drop your income and pay super little, basically have the government pay your loan for you... is a hugeeee ass benefit. Whether ur income drops b/c of unemployment, voluntary travel, career change, entrepreneurial bootstrapping, whatever... It's pretty sick to not have to worry about the mortgage-sized debt.

With the caveat that I can't even fathom how much 3 years costs, including CoL and accrued interest, these days... I don't regret it at all. I didn't have any noteworthy prospects to make bank$$$ before going to LS.. Around June or wtv when I moved to Philly for LS, I prob coulda jumped into this one job at a bank making like $45k. I graduated making like more than 3x that. Even with my "2nd rent" I pay every month, I live very very well and if we're being real I didn't really do anything to get that other than get into Penn well and then continue to choose to work inhumane hours but anyways yea lol.

As a "splitter" .. what they called it back in the day anyways... a full ride at a top school wasn't in the cards for me, I'd've needed to go to a super localey kinda school where you out and do normal localey stuff, be a small town prosecutor or DUI lawyer or wtv the fuk, make $50 to eventually 100k with no debt. .... That life definitely isn't for me, but there's nothing wrong with that either. I do pro bono with a lot of these guys and they seem to genuinely enjoy their work a lot more than me and most of my coworkers do.

And, while I had absolutely zero interest, Penn is pretty much a golden ticket to go from wherever u are in ur current life to the bigshot NY corporate lawyer life. That is pretty much "making it" to some people. Do a half-assedly average job at Penn, be a normal human that can hold conversation in an interview, and that's pretty much it... I can't think of too many other things that let u shortcut life like that.

Should say, I'm also operating on the assumption here that Penn has roughly similar employment #s to what it did when I went. We had LST or wtv then, and I think it was like maybe 75% (?maybe?) went to one of biglaw or good clerkship. Keep in mind a lot of the ppl that go to jobs that some ppl call the "bad" outcomes actually really really wanted to do that. For example, I think most years (I was pretty close with 1 and shes awesome) there's at least 1 person who chooses to work for the Philly Defenders after graduating.. It's not cuz they weren't good enough to get something else its just what the wanted to do. Same with a lot of fellowships and stuff. As I understand some school have like "fellowships" to help unemployed people have some sort of temporary employment after graduating (Penn might even have this tho, no idea).. BUT at a school like Penn, a "fellowship," as I understand, is more likely to be a prestigious thing of some sort.

Long story short on that ^ paragraph, I remember being super super stressed about the possibility of graduating broke and in massive debt and unemployed, but that in reality is a realllly small % of ppl. Not to say no one struggles, some do. The super socially awkward/autistic types, I think they have the roughest time, even compared to a couple friends of mine that got Cs (as in they got one C each during 1L, not multiple Cs each). And I had a couple good friends that did not have a fun 3L since they were still hunting for that eventual job offer. But everyone I was friends with eventually got something solid that they were proud of.

And by now, careers have already diverged ALL OVER the map, so u realize what firm or wtv u go work for really really really doesn't mean dick anyways.


3. Very very very few, unless you fit one of the categories that can get them:
a) minorities of the types that get the preferences
b) patent prosecution ppl - and not just being "eligible" for the patent bar, but legitimately having a good tech degree and/or WE, etc...
c) local connection to one of the markets that actually hires a lot of 1Ls, which is a couple but not most
d) super duper good grades and all around you were bred for this since birth, but even these are slim

More importantly, IMO, is that it literally doesn't matter at all. Making 30k or wtv it is now, sure that's nice.. But, compared to once u are working week in, week out, year after year.. Eh.. Try for it, but it's not worth losing sleep over. Other than the $ it doesn't give u any other long-term leg up or advantage or wtv. Looking back now, I kinda wish I had done something more interesting and unique that I would remember forever during my 1L summer instead of doing the exact same shit I'm still doing now. Maybe that's just me tho /shrug


4) Varies quite a lot. A lot of people do like a normal workday deal like 8am to 6pm, then u have gunners in the library til midnight every night even tho tests aren't for months. Honestly u can probably guess which u will be... you will not just be a different human cuz ur in law school, once the novelty wears off anyways.

I did not find anything stressful about the school part of it. Subject matter wise a reasonably literate 5th grader would be fine. If you want to spend every waking hour memorizing stuff to graduate with a 3.55 instead of a 3.45, that's ur own fault but no one is making u do that (except that we don't even get GPAs so, lol even more).

I don't have another LS to compare it to, but I heard from the transfers that came from Tier2 schools and wtv that Penn is much more chill. I think the job statistics do a lot to mellow most people out, other than the try hards that will be like that no matter what and probably always will be. If that's you, well, idk, lol. Middle ish of the pack FTW lol.




Ok well that was fun, and long, lol... Take it for its $0.02, or don't. All JMHO.

P.S., idk what kind of overall impression all that left, cuz it was basically stream of consciousness and im not going back to proofread... But I LOVED my time at Penn. To be clear. Super, super fun. I am very glad that I did more fun things and studied a little bit less.

wildcatatpenn

New
Posts: 70
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:40 am

Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Post by wildcatatpenn » Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:28 pm

fuck i just saw that that post was a month ago. smfh

Splitting_Headache

New
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:44 pm

Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Post by Splitting_Headache » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:42 pm

wildcatatpenn wrote:fuck i just saw that that post was a month ago. smfh
Back just now to read your response :)! Thanks for taking the time to write all this out—it's really helpful! I've actually been admitted to Penn now, and I may attend. I think I'm coming from a similar place to you, in that I don't really have other options to make good money coming from a no-name undergrad with lousy grades. I'm also unlikely to get big money from a school with good big law employment as a splitter. Amazing how just being a good test-taker can propel someone like this though.

I'm not sure if you're still around to answer this, but I'm curious about your decision to go on IBR rather than pay the debt off (as I assume you could on your salary). I'd planned to just live very cheap (I have no problem doing so) and pay off all debt in 2-3 years. But I guess paying 15% or so of discretionary income every year might be a financially better decision? Just curious as to your thoughts on this. Thanks again!

Want to continue reading?

Register for access!

Did I mention it was FREE ?


wildcatatpenn

New
Posts: 70
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:40 am

Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Post by wildcatatpenn » Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:36 am

Splitting_Headache wrote:
wildcatatpenn wrote:fuck i just saw that that post was a month ago. smfh
Back just now to read your response :)! Thanks for taking the time to write all this out—it's really helpful! I've actually been admitted to Penn now, and I may attend. I think I'm coming from a similar place to you, in that I don't really have other options to make good money coming from a no-name undergrad with lousy grades. I'm also unlikely to get big money from a school with good big law employment as a splitter. Amazing how just being a good test-taker can propel someone like this though.

I'm not sure if you're still around to answer this, but I'm curious about your decision to go on IBR rather than pay the debt off (as I assume you could on your salary). I'd planned to just live very cheap (I have no problem doing so) and pay off all debt in 2-3 years. But I guess paying 15% or so of discretionary income every year might be a financially better decision? Just curious as to your thoughts on this. Thanks again!
Welp, sorry this took another month lolz.... I just set my forum settings here to email me notifications, so feel free to DM me for my email if u like. Just a little leery about posting it on the public forum but always happy to chat about Penn with whoever.

Anyways... I can't say I've ever actually advocated it to anyone, other peoples' $ not being my business and all.... But I am a hugeeeeee believer in it. As in, strongly believe that it is an amazingly beneficial program for people in or near my situation (many TLSers' too I'm sure).. (I.e., not that I "believe" in its existence as a Federal program -- realistically it's a welfare program for people that certainly don't need it, so.....).

Anyways, I can say without a doubt that I've come out way ahead with it so far, and have zerooooo doubts that that will continue to be true.

Some random reasons why I feel this way, as pop into my head, along with some particular personal situations and opinions that diff people may or may not agree with:
(I've spent a goooood amount of time figuring this out well before now, have all the #s saved)
  • facts to clarify my point of view here, as specifically as I'm willing to share: I live in one of the relatively more expensive states that's somewhere between CA and NY; I unfortunately still work in this "regional Biglaw" hellhole and have since graduating; without looking it up, I think my loan balance was around $150k when I graduated. I also prob had maybe $10-20k worth of CC debt by the time I started work (0% interest bar trip, and such).
  • I probably will not ever be a biglaw partner, cuz this shit sux. I'm also not currently prioritizing making as much $ as possible, but I haven't given up on the possibility of high paying job when I'm a bit older
  • I def don't throw my $ away, but I also am not particularly hermit-like either. Since working, I've bought a super sick truck, a ton of pricey things for a pricey hobby, way too many several hundred-$ bar tabs, etc.
  • I'm super duper duper into the concept of early retirement and "financial independence."
  • So, some real #s, using the magic of Personal Capital (great friken tool)..wish I had this being tracked going all the way back, but using this site I have the record starting ~5/16/17.
  • Since 5/16/17, it has been 1010 days. Since then, my student loan balance has increased $36. Amazing...
  • This net is a gentle curve, if that's not clear. Balance slowly increased from graduation until your 3rd year, then slowly decreases from there
  • Given my debt, and a weighted average student loan interest rate just a hair over 6%, it appears that my current monthly payment outweighs the monthly interest by about $160-170 or so. Logically this should be going up as it pays down principal.
  • The current standard procedure for REPAYE is you "recertify" just before New Year's to determine your monthly payments for the upcoming year, which is based on your most recent tax return (which is for the previous year)
  • So on the normal law school -> biglaw path, you literally pay almost NOTHING until you are a 3rd yr associate, b/c:
  • Your "stub year" payments are based on taxes u filed during 2L, based on 1L summer income
  • Your payments as a 1st year are based on taxes u filed during 3L, based on 2L summer income (since SAs are like 12 weeks tops, the high pay is averaged over 52 weeks for your AGI)
  • 2nd yr payments based on your stub year, which is likely only 3-4 months of earnings
  • Once you've racked up ~28 months of biglaw pay, then u become a 3rd year and start paying full REPAYE payments.
  • ON TOP OF THAT, during those 28 months, the govt was paying half your unpaid interest. For me, when I was a 1st year, this worked out to the govt cutting me something like $320/month (directly to the student loan provider).
  • So the govt basically paid me an extra $3.5-4k or so to NOT have to make payments on these massive loans
  • Or, u can think of it as, using my #s, my ~6.1% average interest being cut to 3.05%. I'll take a 3% loan from anybody instantly to turn around and put that $ straight into low cost index funds
  • Thennnnn, what about once u start making "real" payments as a 3rd year associate? Well, mine went up to right around $1k or so.
  • But that's pretty much what you would have done anyways the entire time if u hadnt done the program
  • So to me, those first 3 years are p much a no brainer
  • After that, that's when it theoretically would make sense to refinance.
  • But, really hittin the #s.. Again, for me, if I refinanced to a hypothetical 3% interest rate 10 yr payment plan, I'd have payments of like $1550.
  • Versus the standard 10 yr payment plan without refi and without REPAYE, which would have payments of ~$1780.
  • So, from a pure cash flow perspective, even making a respectable $200k or more, you're still putting wayyyyy more $ into your pocket (and thus the stock market, down payment for mortgage, etc.) by staying on REPAYE
  • Now, the "cost," in terms of extra interest, of keeping my loans at 6.1% versus the hypothetical 3% refi is a difference of ~$230/month=$2800 a year (either in straight payments on the 10 yr plan, or in greater interest on REPAYE)
  • $2800 a year certainly isn't nothing. But it's not thaaat much either.
  • The cost of refi-ing is you give up all of the future benefits of REPAYE
  • In my opinion, looking forward, the future benefits of REPAYE>>>>>$2800/yr
  • For example, benefits of REPAYE:
  • Move to a "normal" but still well paying job down the line where u make maybe $150k.. While your REPAYE payments probably are still > monthly interest (so no govt subsidy), you are pocketing wayyy more $ every month.
  • JMHO, but cash in hand is just soooo much more useful than a smaller loan balance on the computer (e.g., mortgage down payment, paying less PMI, particularly)
  • Any year that you go fully or partially unemployed (such that your AGI for the year is relatively low), your government baby daddy kicks back in, covering half your unpaid interest for the entire next year while u again make piddly $200 or so payments
  • Just like when you're early on in your biglaw career where the REPAYE interest subsidy was worth ~$3.5-4k per year, if you get that a few other years of your life, that can make up some of the $2800/yr savings you missed by not refi-ing
  • There are sooooooo many situations in life you might have a disproportionately low AGI.
  • E.g.: layoff or quitting job until u start a new one (I know I will def take a deeeeecent vacation when this happens, in either case); going back to school; taking time off for traveling, extended time with a baby, whatever.. By doing nothing you basically get PAAAIIIID by the REPAYE fairy
  • I'm suuuuuuper into the entrepreneurship idea, probably will take a shot at it eventually.. Here, it is very likely I wouldn't take a salary for a couple of years. If my AGI were literally $0, REPAYE would be "paying" me ~$4240 per year (or financing my business by floating a suuuuper generous 3% loan)
  • I go hardddddd on tax deductions, anything to defer those taxes to lower brackets during retirement or avoid taxes altogether is a *gift* in my book
  • REPAYE has the effect of multiplying the benefits you get from deductions. Every $1 you reduce your AGI by this year also reduces your student loan bill next year by $0.10. This adds up. That $3000 capital loss carryover now puts an *extra* $300 in my pocket next year.
  • "Tax bomb"?
  • First, I pretty strongly feel that once people are getting tax-pwned by the bomb, Congress or someone will step and get rid of this. Not doing so would cause unprecedented chaos for the bajillions of people carrying hugeee student loan balances.
  • Second, even if u get hit by the tax bomb, that means you got a freaking GIFT of the ENTIRE BALANCE of your remaining loan! It's like crying about the tax bill when Oprah gives you a free car.
  • A $100k remaining balance forgiven, even with a maximum tax bracket bill of $35k, is still a straight up $65k WINDFALL.
  • Even when you're unemployed, you are making qualifying "payments" every month of $0 towards those 2 years of payments until forgiveness

So yea. Idk what it is about whenever i get end up on this site i end up rambling for days, but yea long story short: to me, REPAYE is supreme flexibility to choose to make a low salary without worrying about making payments at any time that I want, has let me dump more my paychecks into the rocketship stock market the past few years, helping me make my down payment this year, and potential for huge payoff way down the road if I have a large balance forgiven.

Again tho, totally just me. I'm also not bothered by having a hugeeee amount of liabilities hanging over my head (and hasn't affected my credit afaik). But i mean, since you don't have to pay if you're out of work, are they even real? :)

Cheers.

Register now!

Resources to assist law school applicants, students & graduates.

It's still FREE!


Post Reply

Return to “Ask a Law Student / Graduate”