William Mitchell Graduate, taking questions. Forum

[MSP1]

That is very interesting news. It's good to hear that we're finally trying to be more competitive with scholarship dollars. Honestly, it was a real problem when I was attending; the administration was constantly talking about ways to increase scholarship funds. (FWIW, I also agree that choosing between St. Thomas for more money and William Mitchell for less isn't really a choice at all.)

I have not heard of schools placing their scholarship students in the same section to weed people out. Seems pretty clever--or horribly underhanded--depending upon your perspective. My experience was that we at Mitchell were spread out fairly evenly through the four/five 1L sections. I wouldn't worry too much about keeping that scholarship.

[ohnowtf]

Just got back from ASD. Put my seat deposit down. Couldn't be happier with my decision. Scholarship $$$ drew me out to William Mitchell, and my visit sealed the deal. Everything I've read about the school here and elsewhere has been confirmed. I got to have a one on one chat with the Dean, who also teaches a 1L class, as well with some admission folk and other faculty. They won me over. I had an offer at St. Thomas, albeit not as high, but it nonetheless was my initial preference. What really sealed the deal for me was talking to family that I have in that area. I have an uncle that teaches at one of the local colleges (hint: the oldest univ in the state), and he wasn't even aware of St. Thomas having a law school. All the locals I ran into and chatted with had nothing but good things to say about the school as well.

For me, the faculty seemed top notch. I enjoy the emphasis the school places on practical skills. The Law Review seemed impressive (especially compared to St. Thomas), and the school offers endless opportunities to actually get courtroom experience while you are a student.

Oh, and by the way, I did find out from an admissions rep that they do not overload any section with scholarship people. Obviously, PTers are all placed in one section, but the composition of the three FT sections is done randomly.

[MSP1]

Just got back from ASD. Put my seat deposit down. Couldn't be happier with my decision.

Glad to hear it...congratulations on choosing William Mitchell.

For me, the faculty seemed top notch.

Here are three that I think are just tremendous profs:

1. Dan Kleinberger; teaches Contracts and Agency/Partnerships/LLCs. He is legitimately one of the smartest people I've ever met and he has the hardware to back it up (undergrad + PBK Harvard; J.D., Yale). If you're familiar with the "Examples & Explanations" series, he's the author of their books on A/P/LLCs. You won't find too many professors from supposedly Tier 4 law schools with that credential. He's also the co-reporter (co-author) of the new Uniform Limited Partnership Act.

2. Peter Knapp; teaches Evidence and Trial Advocacy. He uses humor in such an effective way that even the dryest subjects--i.e., Evidence--become entertaining. Directs Mitchell's Trial Advocacy curriculum, which really teaches you how to litigate by breaking the process down into its component parts and studying both procedure and strategy. He's also no slouch academically (undergrad and J.D., Harvard)

3. Greg Duhl; teaches UCC 2, 4, and 9. He's new as of this last academic year, so I never had him, but the students I know rave about his classes. Like Knapp, he's excellent at making dry subjects enjoyable. He's also well-connected within the transactional community, as he's the managing editor of The Business Lawyer, the ABA Business Section's monthly publication. Apparently, he uses his research assistants to help with the publication. And again, he's obtained pretty solid academic credentials (undergrad Yale; J.D., Harvard)

There are literally dozens of others who are equally-qualified; these are just the ones that sprang to mind immediately.

The Law Review seemed impressive.

This is a good point because not a lot of people know about the success of the William Mitchell Law Review. Because law students love rankings, W&L law librarians created a ranking for law reviews about five or six years ago. In 2008, William Mitchell ranked 22nd in the nation for citations in judicial opinions (state and federal) and 62nd for citations by other law reviews. I mean, the difference between those numbers and William Mitchell's overall USNWR ranking is stark. It's surprising enough that Al Brophy, a law professor at UNC, wrote an article examining differences or similarities between a law school's USNWR rank and its law review rank. He singled out William Mitchell as one school that he thought should be moving up, considering the quality of its publication.

Check out the article here:

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsB ... _id=343640

[waitingsux]

ohnowtf- Thanks for the information on scholarships at Mitchell. Like you, St.Thomas was my first choice. But now I'm drawn to Mitchell, in large part because of money, but also because of the good things I've been hearing about Mitchell and the not so great things about St. Thomas. I'm still think I'm going to write St. Thomas a letter seeing if i can get a better offer out of them. I doubt they'll be able to match Mitchell's offer, but I'm interested to see what they say.

MSP1- Thanks for all your input and information. You've been very helpful and reassuring. You're an angel in an on-line world often dominated by trolls.

[MSP1]

MSP1- Thanks for all your input and information. You've been very helpful and reassuring. You're an angel in an on-line world often dominated by trolls.

You're more than welcome. I'm just trying to put the facts out there about William Mitchell. People ignore or ridicule it because it's a Tier 4 law school, but as I argued earlier in this thread, USNWR is getting it wrong. Mitchell's not perfect, but it deserves a lot more respect than that.

Keep the questions coming. There's plenty more where this came from.

[waitingsux]

hey MSP1- you got any thoughts on summer prep before first year?

[JurisDoctor33]

hey MSP1- you got any thoughts on summer prep before first year?

I am currently a 2L at Mitchell. Do not waste your money on the summer prep course; the credits are very general and you will learn very little substantive law. I would recommend that you get and read "Getting to Maybe" instead (worst case scenario, get this book and read it even if you still take the summer course !!!!!!) The summer program will not teach you how to take a law school test, it will only give you experience taking one. After reading Getting to Maybe, you will have a much better take on what to expect on your first year exams. You will soon learn that little things like organization, headings, proper conclusions, recognizing ambiguous facts or laws, etc... will be worth at least 1/3 of your grade a curved test. Just my two cents... if you've got other questions, keep them coming.

[End3r]

Any thoughts on Mitchell clawing its way out of the fourth tier? Thought it was interesting the PT program is in the top 25 as well. http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... &start=575

[MSP1]

hey MSP1- you got any thoughts on summer prep before first year?

I am currently a 2L at Mitchell. Do not waste your money on the summer prep course; the credits are very general and you will learn very little substantive law. I would recommend that you get and read "Getting to Maybe" instead (worst case scenario, get this book and read it even if you still take the summer course !!!!!!) The summer program will not teach you how to take a law school test, it will only give you experience taking one. After reading Getting to Maybe, you will have a much better take on what to expect on your first year exams. You will soon learn that little things like organization, headings, proper conclusions, recognizing ambiguous facts or laws, etc... will be worth at least 1/3 of your grade a curved test. Just my two cents... if you've got other questions, keep them coming.

I'd echo JD33's comments. I never took a summer prep course at Mitchell, but I did purchase "Getting to Maybe." If you read it closely and consider it thoroughly, it can be of great use in understanding the procedure for writing a good law exam. As for substance, I'd recommend perusing some of the Examples & Explanations volumes for your first-year courses. I liked and used them quite a bit during law school, especially for Contracts and Civil Procedure. If they appeal to you, then buy them before classes begin and read through them. It might make you feel less like a fish out of water when you actually take up the principles in lecture.

[MSP1]

Any thoughts on Mitchell clawing its way out of the fourth tier? Thought it was interesting the PT program is in the top 25 as well. http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... &start=575

I'm very pleased--but unsurprised--that Mitchell is back in the third tier. The drop last year was a total fluke. I'm also unsurprised by how well the PT program fared in the USNWR's first set of rankings.

However, I do have some not-so-positive comments about this year's results:

1. If I read it correctly, William Mitchell's peer assessment rating was a 1.9 out of 5. I'm totally baffled by this number. I'd like to know more about what goes into the actual process of assigning a number to this criterion, simply because Mitchell is actively trying to increase its national exposure (IP Institute, National Security Forum, etc.) and it can boast several successful grads in prominent positions (CJ Magnuson, AG Swanson, etc).

2. Mitchell has yet to crack the top 10 of USNWR's "specialty" rankings. We came close a few years ago with the clinical program, when we were tied for 14th, but the rest seem to have plateaued in the mid-twenties or thirties. It just seems odd, considering that there are several categories where I would think we'd be competitive (legal writing, clinics, IP, etc.)

So I guess I'm happy with the result, but it's certainly not an occasion for us to "rest on our laurels."

[mgoblue2008]

MSP1: I was surprised that I got waitlisted from WM... I did apply very late, but was surprised nonetheless. What are my chances at getting off of it?

153 LSAT/3.14 UGPA from University of Michigan ... I took the LSAT without any studying after deciding at the last minute I wanted to go to law school. Should have retaken but just said fk it... I want to stay in MN and probably wont get an LSAT score high enough for Minnesota anyways

Softs: interned for a U.S. congressman in D.C. for 2 summers, worked on political campaigns while at Michigan, currently working as a research assistant for the chief public defender in my district


Thanks for your time and expertise....

[MSP1]

Well, you've got the Michigan thing going for you. That and your softs probably had a lot to do with your being waitlisted. Are you a URM? Honestly, that could tip the scales in your favor. (Don't answer if you're not comfortable doing so.)

My other questions would be (1) how was your personal statement; and (2) did the admissions people give you any idea of what you could do in the interim while they make their decision? Are you allowed to contact them, or did they expressly forbid it? Perhaps if you know some lawyers in the area with connections to William Mitchell, they might vouch for you with the committee.

[Mr. Matlock]

I by no means mean to Hi-jack your thread, but did have a comment I'd like to share. The vast majority of my family is from Minnesota and the Twin Cities. From a strictly lay prestige outlook, William Mitchell is VERY well regarded! It's rich history in St. Paul and the out reach of alumni from the area, IMHO, make it an outstanding choice for anyone considering practicing in Minnesota. I thought most of my family would gush about the U of M. But there's definitely a positive vibe from the community about that school. I'll be staying on the left-coast, but there's certainly pressure from the family to come back to my roots. I'd go there and not think twice.

That is all.

[MSP1]

I by no means mean to Hi-jack your thread, but did have a comment I'd like to share. The vast majority of my family is from Minnesota and the Twin Cities. From a strictly lay prestige outlook, William Mitchell is VERY well regarded! It's rich history in St. Paul and the out reach of alumni from the area, IMHO, make it an outstanding choice for anyone considering practicing in Minnesota. I thought most of my family would gush about the U of M. But there's definitely a positive vibe from the community about that school. I'll be staying on the left-coast, but there's certainly pressure from the family to come back to my roots. I'd go there and not think twice.

That is all.

This thread is a big tent; no one minds a little editorializing (hijacking) now and then.

Some may argue that lay prestige for a law school is irrelevant, but I think it has certain value. If a non-lawyer struck up a conversation with Person A on the street, and Person A mentioned that she went to HLS or YLS, it's likely that the non-lawyer would be impressed. Students from schools with lay-prestige are automatically imbued with competence. I'm not saying that William Mitchell is in the same league as those two schools, but the concept is similar.

I'm also glad you mentioned William Mitchell's rich history, not only because I'm a history buff, but also because so few people--even the school's own students--are fully aware of it. The five guys who founded William Mitchell in 1900 weren't just a couple of fly-by-nighters who decided to teach some evening classes to make a buck. To wit:

Hiram Stevens:
A.B., University of Vermont, 1872
LL.B., Columbia Law School, 1874
Charter member of the American Bar Association
Charter member and first president of the Minnesota Bar Association

Ambrose Tighe
A.B., Yale College, 1879 (Phi Beta Kappa, also a Bonesman)
M.A., Yale College, 1891
General Counsel, Eastman Kodak
General Counsel, Mutual Life Insurance Co. of New York

Moses Clapp
LL.B., University of Wisconsin
Three-term Minnesota Attorney General
Two-term U.S. Senator

Thomas O'Brien
Minnesota Supreme Court justice

The only one we don't know much about is Clarence Halbert. He was a YLS grad. That's about it.

Now, with such prestigious forebears--and in a profession that arguably thrives off elitism--you'd think that people might view William Mitchell differently. Reasons why not? Feel free to discuss if you like. Otherwise, I'm open for more questions.

[waitingsux]

I have not heard of schools placing their scholarship students in the same section to weed people out. Seems pretty clever--or horribly underhanded--depending upon your perspective. My experience was that we at Mitchell were spread out fairly evenly through the four/five 1L sections.

I talked to a woman in admissions at Mitchell and found out that the school does not unevenly stack 1L sections. Also, according to the admissions office, 80% of students receiving a merit scholarship keep their scholarship after their first year. Of the 20% that don't, 80% bring their grades up so that by their third year they have their scholarship back.

[waitingsux]

1. If I read it correctly, William Mitchell's peer assessment rating was a 1.9 out of 5. I'm totally baffled by this number. I'd like to know more about what goes into the actual process of assigning a number to this criterion, simply because Mitchell is actively trying to increase its national exposure (IP Institute, National Security Forum, etc.) and it can boast several successful grads in prominent positions (CJ Magnuson, AG Swanson, etc).

What does the peer assessment rating measure?

[MSP1]

If I understand it correctly, the peer assessment rating represents what other lawyers, judges, and professors "think" of your law school. These people are surveyed at random throughout the United States and asked to assign a number to the school, with 0 being the worst and 5 the best. USNWR prints the average of all the responses. So as you can imagine, a peer assessment rating of 1.9 ain't that great.

Considering how law professors and practicing lawyers network with each other professionally, across state lines, I'll say again that I'm completely baffled by William Mitchell's score. And the unfortunate part is that it's not really a factor conducive to being "worked on," like some of the others. People's minds simply change about a school's reputation.

[JurisDoctor33]

If I understand it correctly, the peer assessment rating represents what other lawyers, judges, and professors "think" of your law school. These people are surveyed at random throughout the United States and asked to assign a number to the school, with 0 being the worst and 5 the best. USNWR prints the average of all the responses. So as you can imagine, a peer assessment rating of 1.9 ain't that great.

Considering how law professors and practicing lawyers network with each other professionally, across state lines, I'll say again that I'm completely baffled by William Mitchell's score. And the unfortunate part is that it's not really a factor conducive to being "worked on," like some of the others. People's minds simply change about a school's reputation.

This is the breakdown for the Methodology.

http://www.usnews.com/articles/educatio ... ology.html

[MSP1]

JD33, thanks for posting this.

Judging from the weight given to the two categories of respondents and the actual percentage who respond to US News, I guess I'm not surprised that Mitchell's peer assessment is so low. .25 of the .40 comes from law school deans, deans of academic affairs, and tenured professors. Law school itself, I'd argue, is the last bastion of pure elitism in the field. The other .15 comes from practicing attorneys and judges, whose opinion about where someone went to law school can be swayed by a graduate's performance in the real world. Since 70% of the academics respond, versus only 20% of the attorneys and judges, I think it's fair to say that the peer assessment factor is heavily influenced by subjective, pre-conceived notions of what represents a "good" law school and not any objective benchmarks.

Doesn't mean that William Mitchell shouldn't have a higher number. Let's hope USNWR starts paying attention to other publications that give us more credit (Vault, National Jurist, etc).

[tjperry]

As of the 2010 rankings which were released April 23, 2009. Hamline tier 4, William Mitchell and St Thomas tier 3.

Tuition -
William Mitchell 30,650
Hamline 30, 096
St Thomas 32,796

Ranking
Peer-
William Mitchell 1.9
Hamline 2.0
St Thomas 1.9
Lawyers/judges-
William Mitchell 2.3
Hamline 2.4
St Thomas 2.6

Acceptance Rate-
William Mitchell 57%
Hamline 48%
St Thomas 49%

Employment Rate 9 mos.-
William Mitchell 96.5%
Hamline 91.6%
St Thomas 96.4%

Bar Passage-
William Mitchell 91%
Hamline 92.4%
St Thomas 88.8%

Student Faculty Ratio-
William Mitchell 20.9 to 1
Hamline 15.4 to 1
St Thomas 17.6 to 1

LSAT 25-75 Range
William Mitchell 150-157
Hamline 150-156
St Thomas 154-160

Salary Info (25 Median 75)-
William Mitchell 47 60 85
Hamline 50 65 120
St Thomas 46 52 80
--Someone please explain to me how Hamline is the school that is supposedly lagging behind out of the three non U MN schools in Minnesota. I've been accepted at all three, but from the looks of it anyone who is looking to make big money should certainly be looking at Hamline first and foremost. A difference of 35k and 40k in starting salaries at the 75 percentile should put up huge red flags for anyone planning to excel at law school who is thinking of choosing William Mitchell or St Thomas over Hamline. I have yet to accept or decline any offers, but the rest of the stats seem to show a fairly similar pattern. However, Hamline is rated 4th (yes following Harvard at 3rd) in the nation at alternative dispute resolution and 19th in the nation at health law (predicted to grow by 26% over the next 10 years). Choice seems pretty clear to me....am I missing something here?

[JurisDoctor33]

Despite what the USNEWS rankings has included, 25% of Hamline's graduating class does not earn $120,000 or more. Hell there are only about 15 firms in the state that have a starting salary of 120K or more. Furthermore, at these firms there are only about 100 Hamline graduates currently employed. Hamline's class size is about 250, which would mean that about 63 of their students land biglaw jobs every year if the USNEWS numbers are accurate...that is simply not the case! I've echoed this advice numerous times, but the local firms are your best resource with regards to choosing a school. You need to call local firms and ask where they are recruiting and how many students they are hiring from certain schools. If you know you want to do corporate work, call a corporate firm and ask what school will give you the best shot at getting a job there, etc... In any case, the rankings of tier 3/4 schools are completely crap for the most part. Just last week people were on here saying that they only applied to Hamline/UST because they were the tier 3's in MN. Wonder how they feel know that Mitchell swapped places?? In reality, nobody cares whether they are t3 or t4, this simply is not a factor in the law firms hiring decisions!!

[MSP1]

Despite what the USNEWS rankings has included, 25% of Hamline's graduating class does not earn $120,000 or more. Hell there are only about 15 firms in the state that have a starting salary of 120K or more. Furthermore, at these firms there are only about 100 Hamline graduates currently employed. Hamline's class size is about 250, which would mean that about 63 of their students land biglaw jobs every year if the USNEWS numbers are accurate...that is simply not the case! I've echoed this advice numerous times, but the local firms are your best resource with regards to choosing a school. You need to call local firms and ask where they are recruiting and how many students they are hiring from certain schools. If you know you want to do corporate work, call a corporate firm and ask what school will give you the best shot at getting a job there, etc... In any case, the rankings of tier 3/4 schools are completely crap for the most part. Just last week people were on here saying that they only applied to Hamline/UST because they were the tier 3's in MN. Wonder how they feel know that Mitchell swapped places?? In reality, nobody cares whether they are t3 or t4, this simply is not a factor in the law firms hiring decisions!!

This is correct. For Hamline to report that its 25% percentile salary is $120K is just plain wrong, and perhaps a little irresponsible. Besides one IP boutique firm (and perhaps some private companies out there with GC offices), there is no other entity in Minneapolis/St. Paul with a higher starting salary than that figure. Earlier in this thread, I compared the numbers of William Mitchell grads in Minneapolis' NLJ 250 law firms to those of Wisconsin and Iowa. Try completing the same exercise for William Mitchell and Hamline. You'll probably see a big difference.

In any event, without seeing the objective data that Hamline used to report those numbers, I have nothing to go on but anecdotal evidence, and that evidence says that the vast majority of Hamline grads are not scoring top-shelf jobs in Minnesota.

[MSP1]

TJP brought up another point that warrants discussion:

However, Hamline is rated 4th (yes following Harvard at 3rd) in the nation at alternative dispute resolution and 19th in the nation at health law (predicted to grow by 26% over the next 10 years).

The sad truth is that specialty rankings are just as big of a sham as the overall rankings, if not more so. Review the law schools that fall in the top 10 of all these "specialties," and you'll notice that third and fourth tier schools fall in with T14s. Does this give the former group more legal street cred? No. For example, could a Hamline grad who took ADR classes approach a CLS grad and claim that he/she was automatically a superior neogiator/mediator/arbitrator? Sure, but the Columbia grad would laugh. And what about Stetson? They rank high in trial advocacy, but would a Stetson grad tell a Stanford grad that by nature of his/her schooling, they were an inherently better litigator?

The cynical side of me says that the specialty rankings are a bone that USNWR throws to its lower-ranked law schools, something they can use as a marketing tool to offset the elephant in the room that is their overall rank. The rational side of me says that the specialty rankings are just nonsense. Case in point--earlier in this thread, I noted that William Mitchell was selected by the U.S. Patent & Trademark Office to participate in a pilot clinical program. Only six law schools were chosen (Mitchell, Vanderbilt, Maine, John Marshall, American, and UConn), based on the strength of the IP faculty, curriculum, and potential for growth. How many of these schools appear in USNWR's IP specialty ranking? Zero. That's right, none of these schools were in the top 10.

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... operty-law

(Caveat: the USPTO did not reveal how many law schools applied to the program.)

In sum, what I'm trying to say is that Hamline's strong showing in two specialty rankings is pretty much meaningless.

[MSP1]

TJP just put so much good stuff in his post that I'd be doing a disservice by not commenting. Sorry for the multiple responses on my part.

LSAT 25-75 Range
William Mitchell 150-157
Hamline 150-156
St Thomas 154-160

I would submit that Mitchell's numbers here are wrong. The entering class of 2008 had a median LSAT of 156, which would make it hard for 157 to be the 25th percentile.

Ranking
Peer-
William Mitchell 1.9
Hamline 2.0
St Thomas 1.9
Lawyers/judges-
William Mitchell 2.3
Hamline 2.4
St Thomas 2.6

And these numbers are just wild, absolutely wild. I fail to see how any attorney or judge worth their salt would consider a law school that had only been in existence for ten years and had graduated only five classes a "better" (albeit only slightly better) institution than Mitchell. That goes for Hamline too, although not to the same extent (thirty-seven years as opposed to ten). But even Hamline has some state judges on the bench in Minnesota and a lone federal judge. Not one single St. Thomas grad has a judgeship anywhere in the United States, and not one of their grads is a shareholder/partner/senior attorney in any firm or legal entity. How did the respondents even come to the above conclusion? Mindboggling.

Then again, I think that for schools outside the T14, it's just luck of the draw on these assessments. Maybe one of the respondents for this year's rankings had met a St. Thomas administrator and liked him/her. (It could be that random.) Conversely, all the guys who founded William Mitchell--despite their damn impressive resumes--have been dead for seventy or eighty years, so it's tough for them to continue talking up the school to the current bar. That's something that Mitchell needs to shore up, and it's inexcusable, considering the school's history.

[Joe Biden]

Tuition: $30,650. The median grant amount for full time students is only $8,500.

Average indebtedness of grads: $86,760

Percentage of students who borrow: 94%

Graduates employed upon graduation: 45.4% (Does William Mitchell even have OCI?!)

Median Private Sector Salary: $60,000

Median Public Service Salary: $46,625

Percentage of graduates employed in business and industry: 31% (This is a MAJOR warning sign)

Rank: Up from T4 to T3 this year.

While Minnesota is the only T1 in Minneapolis, don't forget Iowa and Wisconsin are close by with many grads seeking employment in Minneapolis. Minneapolis has Hamline and St. Thomas competing for jobs in the Minneapolis area. Milwaukee has Marquette, and Chicago is probably not an option for most, if not all William Mitchell grads.

Don't get me wrong, I am sure William Mitchell is fine school with an excellent program, but people need to know what they are getting themselves into. There are probably some William Mitchell graduates who are successful, but you will probably have a higher quality of life working construction or as trash man than as a William Mitchell alumni.

William Mitchell graduates have almost the same average indebtedness as Michigan grads. The median home price in Minneapolis is $211,000. As a William Mitchell graduate, you will not even be able to afford a home if you have no law school debt and are lucky enough to get a job.

Good luck to anyone considering William Mitchell. Just know what you are getting yourselves into. I personally know someone who went to William Mitchell who has told me on several occasions that he wished he knew what he was getting himself into. I don't feel bad for him; he should have done his due diligence. He didn't, and now he is paying the price. Personally, it appears to me that William Mitchell is about on par with Cooley in terms of value.