GULC Curriculum B Student Taking ?s

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
impalervlad
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:24 pm

GULC Curriculum B Student Taking ?s

Postby impalervlad » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:25 pm

I am taking a break from submitting summer internship applications and figured I would hop on here and potentially answer some questions. By way of background, I am a 1L committed to doing PI after graduation.

Why GULC? Two reasons: $$$ and Curriculum B. I turned down offers from CCCNND because GULC gave me a sweet deal, and Curriculum B was the icing on the cake. I was initially reticent to attend due to the drop in rankings, but the long and short of it is that I am incredibly happy with my decision to come here. Why am I happy?

Four reasons:

1. The professors are enthusiastic about teaching, their passion for the material is infectious, and they are dedicated to helping their students develop academically and professionally. Each has met with me one-on-one (some more than once) and they're all very good about maintaining office hours. Section 3 professors will hold weekend review sessions, one regularly answers email at 2 a.m. in the morning, and they all seem like genuinely nice people. I've heard horror stories from folks in a different section, and I'm grateful to be in 3.

2. I learn something from my peers everyday. That sounds cheesy, but it's true. Like other top schools, GULC attracts accomplished people. My peers are retired military officers, activists, academics, journalists, business developers, and more. They come from across the country (and world) and represent (I think) every major religion, race, and ethnicity in this country. They come from all classes and from across the political spectrum (no fascists or authoritarian communists, though). For me, being surrounded by people from different walks of life has enhanced my own education: I am learning from them how different communities of people conceive of, and relate to, the judicial system we all seek to join, among other things. Oh, and my friend wants me to note that (1) everyone is attractive and (2) the lgbtqia population is sizable and they throw great parties. As an aside, there are a couple of gunners but Section 3 generally feels like a supportive family.

3. Curriculum B serves to contextualize law in historical, social, cultural, and philosophical traditions. So far, we've delved into Classical Legal Thought; Legal Realism; Legal Liberalism; socio-legal studies; feminist legal theory; critical race theory and the law; Critical Legal Studies; legal pragmatism; and conservative legal thought. All of our classes have explored these intellectual paradigms, and I feel as if it has enriched my appreciation for the case law. More generally, GULC emphasizes the importance of taking a clinic and practicum, and developing strong legal writing skills.

4. Careers. Let me preface this bit by reminding you that I am a 1L and you should take anything I say with a heavy dose of salt. That said, I came into law school with several years of work experience and a clear idea of what I wanted to do. So far, that idea seems perfectly feasible. More generally, GULC seems to be throwing a ton of resources at getting students hired, though I admittedly do not have the necessary information to assess its efforts vis-a-vis those of a T-14 school. Anecdotally, the 2L and 3L students I have talked with have not expressed much anxiety about near-term career prospects. BigLaw seems to be there for those who are not at the very bottom, and PI seems to be there for those who want to put in the time and not get paid for it (ProBono pledge, PI externship, summer internship, etc.). I have yet to ask OPICS why the numbers tell a different story.

GULC deservedly gets some shit*, but I have been pretty impressed so far.

* I reserve the right to shit on GULC if and when I exit the honeymoon phase of law school.

Questions? Comments? GULC hate?

BrainsyK
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2016 5:37 am

Re: GULC Curriculum B Student Taking ?s

Postby BrainsyK » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:31 pm

Have you seen Tiffany?

User avatar
White Dwarf
Posts: 280
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:54 pm

Re: GULC Curriculum B Student Taking ?s

Postby White Dwarf » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:59 pm

impalervlad wrote:
Anecdotally, the 2L and 3L students I have talked with have not expressed much anxiety about near-term career prospects. BigLaw seems to be there for those who are not at the very bottom, and PI seems to be there for those who want to put in the time and not get paid for it (ProBono pledge, PI externship, summer internship, etc.). I have yet to ask OPICS why the numbers tell a different story.


GULC has had 15-22% underemployment over the last 3 years. I find it hard to believe there isn't a lot of anxiety among 2Ls and 3Ls. Biglaw being there for anyone not at the very bottom isn't true at Columbia, much less GULC.

Roughly half the class is going into their 3L year without anything lined-up post-graduation. From that (and the underemployment score) I'd imagine about 1/3rd are graduating without a job. Columbia has way better numbers and I know quite a few anxious 3Ls going into their last semester (granted, that's skewed because I'm PI-focused).

What your individual experience has been like is great to talk about, but the employment numbers are the employment numbers.

User avatar
Mr. Blackacre
Posts: 311
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 11:48 pm

Re: GULC Curriculum B Student Taking ?s

Postby Mr. Blackacre » Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:20 am

impalervlad wrote:Why GULC? Two reasons: $$$ and Curriculum B.

How does it feel to be the butt of everyone's jokes? Or to have the highest gunner per capita ratio of all sections?

White Dwarf wrote:GULC has had 15-22% underemployment over the last 3 years. I find it hard to believe there isn't a lot of anxiety among 2Ls and 3Ls. Biglaw being there for anyone not at the very bottom isn't true at Columbia, much less GULC.

Roughly half the class is going into their 3L year without anything lined-up post-graduation. From that (and the underemployment score) I'd imagine about 1/3rd are graduating without a job. Columbia has way better numbers and I know quite a few anxious 3Ls going into their last semester (granted, that's skewed because I'm PI-focused).

What your individual experience has been like is great to talk about, but the employment numbers are the employment numbers.


I am first in line to hate on GULC but this is stupid.
1) 80% of the class at Columbia goes to biglaw. 5% get clerkships. A little over 5% gets public interest / government, and you better believe they don't get the bad PI/Gvt jobs. The bottom at Columbia does in fact get biglaw, unless you're literally counting the bottom 10%. Which is going to be a problem at every school.

2) Over 50% at GULC get biglaw + clerkships, and those pretty much all know by the start of 3L. GULC also has a very good reputation for public service, and most PDs / ADAs know by 3L as well. I'd say 30% is a much more accurate number for those who don't know by then.

3) Not sure where you get the 1/3 graduating without a job number from. When you add the law school funded jobs, unemployed, non-lawyers, and small firm, you're barely at 20%, maybe 25% tops.

For what it's worth, in my 3 years at the school I only heard from a few people about their problems finding a job. There is a huge stigma around graduating LS jobless, and it's not at all surprising when over 75% of people do get a job that the rest try to hide it. I think it's very different from schools where only 50% of people get law-related employment.

Personally, I thought the school sucked but for different reasons than employment outcomes. The administration is useless, the tuition is ridiculous. The professors are great and students generally stick together, but as far as the school is concerned you are basically just a cash cow.

dabigchina
Posts: 1207
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:22 am

Re: GULC Curriculum B Student Taking ?s

Postby dabigchina » Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:29 am

OP: Can you TL;DR what curriculum B is?
Mr. Blackacre wrote:
I am first in line to hate on GULC but this is stupid.
1) 80% of the class at Columbia goes to biglaw. 5% get clerkships. A little over 5% gets public interest / government, and you better believe they don't get the bad PI/Gvt jobs. The bottom at Columbia does in fact get biglaw, unless you're literally counting the bottom 10%. Which is going to be a problem at every school.

2) Over 50% at GULC get biglaw + clerkships, and those pretty much all know by the start of 3L. GULC also has a very good reputation for public service, and most PDs / ADAs know by 3L as well. I'd say 30% is a much more accurate number for those who don't know by then.

3) Not sure where you get the 1/3 graduating without a job number from. When you add the law school funded jobs, unemployed, non-lawyers, and small firm, you're barely at 20%, maybe 25% tops.

For what it's worth, in my 3 years at the school I only heard from a few people about their problems finding a job. There is a huge stigma around graduating LS jobless, and it's not at all surprising when over 75% of people do get a job that the rest try to hide it. I think it's very different from schools where only 50% of people get law-related employment.

Personally, I thought the school sucked but for different reasons than employment outcomes. The administration is useless, the tuition is ridiculous. The professors are great and students generally stick together, but as far as the school is concerned you are basically just a cash cow.


I get what White Dwarf's saying though. "Talking to" 3Ls might not give you an accurate idea of employment outlook because most people will not broadcast their anxieties about their careers to a random 1L. I'm very good friends with a couple of people who are jobless going into graduation at CLS, and it's definitely not something that they like to talk about, even with me.

User avatar
White Dwarf
Posts: 280
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:54 pm

Re: GULC Curriculum B Student Taking ?s

Postby White Dwarf » Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:48 am

Mr. Blackacre wrote:2) Over 50% at GULC get biglaw + clerkships, and those pretty much all know by the start of 3L. GULC also has a very good reputation for public service, and most PDs / ADAs know by 3L as well. I'd say 30% is a much more accurate number for those who don't know by then.

3) Not sure where you get the 1/3 graduating without a job number from. When you add the law school funded jobs, unemployed, non-lawyers, and small firm, you're barely at 20%, maybe 25% tops.


PDs/ADAs may find out during 3L, but few if any are going to know going in (speaking from the ADA side, though I know several PDs who are on basically the same timeline). Even the fastest pre-bar offices don't generally make many offers before November, and most are going to come in December through February, and sometimes later. And that assumes they are going to an office that hires pre-bar. Just looking at the hiring classes, very few GULC grads get hired by the NYC DA's offices, and that's a huge percentage of the pre-bar ADA spots right there.

I'm estimating 1/3 from the fact that the underemployment rate 8 months after graduation is 15-22%. A lot of people will graduate jobless, but find a job before the cut-off for the data. It's just an estimate, but I don't think it's far off. A lot of the small firm and PI jobs (ADA/PD in particular) that don't count towards the underemployment number will go to people in this group.

Obviously graduating without a job isn't nearly as bad as being unemployed 8 months after graduation, but it's still something nobody wants to go through (much less pay $200K+ for).

impalervlad
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:24 pm

Re: GULC Curriculum B Student Taking ?s

Postby impalervlad » Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:14 am

Mr. Blackacre wrote: How does it feel to be the butt of everyone's jokes? Or to have the highest gunner per capita ratio of all sections?


:roll: there are few gunners but what we lack in numbers we make up for in intensity.

dabigchina wrote: OP: Can you TL;DR what curriculum B is?


Curriculum B attempts to provide students with a historical and, in some instances, philosophical or socio-cultural understanding of legal development in the U.S. For example, in Property we spent a lot of time on how suburban growth and the need for calmer race relations influenced the development of contemporary servitudes (we also, unfortunately, spent time on the feudal origins of servitudes). In Contracts/Torts, we spent considerable time on how classical legal thought (think, no liability without consent or fault) influenced contract/tort doctrine in the U.S. There's an entire course on differing conceptions of legal justice, wherein you read almost 800 pages of law review articles. Etc. Etc.

User avatar
Mr. Blackacre
Posts: 311
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 11:48 pm

Re: GULC Curriculum B Student Taking ?s

Postby Mr. Blackacre » Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:23 am

White Dwarf wrote:PDs/ADAs may find out during 3L, but few if any are going to know going in (speaking from the ADA side, though I know several PDs who are on basically the same timeline). Even the fastest pre-bar offices don't generally make many offers before November, and most are going to come in December through February, and sometimes later. And that assumes they are going to an office that hires pre-bar. Just looking at the hiring classes, very few GULC grads get hired by the NYC DA's offices, and that's a huge percentage of the pre-bar ADA spots right there.

I'm estimating 1/3 from the fact that the underemployment rate 8 months after graduation is 15-22%. A lot of people will graduate jobless, but find a job before the cut-off for the data. It's just an estimate, but I don't think it's far off. A lot of the small firm and PI jobs (ADA/PD in particular) that don't count towards the underemployment number will go to people in this group.

Obviously graduating without a job isn't nearly as bad as being unemployed 8 months after graduation, but it's still something nobody wants to go through (much less pay $200K+ for).


If that's how you're counting, a bunch of people who do biglaw don't technically find out until they're in 3L either since some firms don't make offers until September/October/November. You're also equating underemployment with unemployment, but I get your point. I'm with you on the tuition (and of course, the university hounds you for donations the MINUTE you graduate. I think I got my first call in August or September).

impalervlad wrote: :roll: there are few gunners but what we lack in numbers we make up for in intensity.

:lol: The most intense people I knew in LS were all Section 3. It's a good thing...sometimes :P Wishing you all the best with your PI goals; you definitely came to the right school.

patttt
Posts: 516
Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:45 pm

Re: GULC Curriculum B Student Taking ?s

Postby patttt » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:36 am

BrainsyK wrote:Have you seen Tiffany?


lol at this.

Anyway, reading the op made me so happy I didn't do section 3.

User avatar
ChutzpahSaxa15
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:54 pm

Re: GULC Curriculum B Student Taking ?s

Postby ChutzpahSaxa15 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:28 pm

If I were to go to GULC I'd certainly want to do Section 3, I think. Given that the classes are huge, do you still feel you're able to get to know people and are the professors accessible at all? My biggest concern would be feeling lost in a sea of people.
How would you describe the culture of the student body?




Return to “Ask a Law Student / Graduate”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: aneesa and 3 guests