0L Advice? Forum

[ConLaw2017]

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[A. Nony Mouse]

I don't have a problem with your small talk definition or your description of the matter. In fact, I am about to finish a 0L diversity internship at a V30-V50 biglaw firm in D.C. I did everything you said on the small talk front, worked from 8-11 as an intern, and did everyone's bitch work but go no headway and things got nasty rather quickly. For reference, I am an AA (HYPS undegrad, Oxbridge grad, and soon to be YLS student) but could not make headway.

So, you don't have to answer this, of course, but I'd love to know what "things got nasty" and "could not make headway" mean - that's pretty vague and it's hard to know what's really going on when you say that. What outcome were you expecting that you didn't get?

A couple of thoughts: I'm in government (thought not remotely the rarefied heights you're aiming for) and I do think the feds are pretty decent about putting their money where their mouth is wrt diversity (in particular when I go to trainings there are a lot more lawyers of color, women, people with visible disabilities than I tend to see in one place).

But it's also true that you have to be sociable anywhere you go. I feel like you're getting hung up on some distinction between "small talk" and plain old talking to people. Admittedly I have the same conversation every day with the (lovely) guy who does the trash on my floor - how are you doing, look at that weather, too bad it's Monday/at least we're nearly halfway through/nearly at the weekend, have a good day. But I also chat with my colleagues, opposing counsel, witnesses, etc. Chatted with a witness this week about how he grew up in NYC and tries to take his kids back there regularly because he feels like if they never get out of our (small rural) state they grow up not getting important things about human differences and how people get along. It just makes working together easier.

Finally, it may simply be that you were not a good fit for the firm you were at this summer. I have worked places (well, one place) where I just did not fit with anyone there/they didn't fit with me. So find someplace better to work.

(Re: the birthday party - to be honest I'm going to assume any firm that does the SEO stuff is hoping to get some kind of social capital out of it; of course they had insincere motives. You not returning, though, was unlikely to be connected to any of that - many diversity positions don't guarantee future employment. You can question their motives, which would probably be pretty fair, or you can use it for your own purposes to get ahead.)

(Re: famous minority attorneys - I think there's a confirmation issue in that people who go into government are more likely to get nationally known, so I'm not sure it entirely tells the whole story. Frankly I don't think most famous attorneys are biglaw partners - your average person can't name many biglaw partners.)

[ConLaw2017]

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[cavalier1138]

Wow.

[njdevils2626]

I don't have a problem with your small talk definition or your description of the matter. In fact, I am about to finish a 0L diversity internship at a V30-V50 biglaw firm in D.C. I did everything you said on the small talk front, worked from 8-11 as an intern, and did everyone's bitch work but go no headway and things got nasty rather quickly. For reference, I am an AA (HYPS undegrad, Oxbridge grad, and soon to be YLS student) but could not make headway.

So, you don't have to answer this, of course, but I'd love to know what "things got nasty" and "could not make headway" mean - that's pretty vague and it's hard to know what's really going on when you say that. What outcome were you expecting that you didn't get?

A couple of thoughts: I'm in government (thought not remotely the rarefied heights you're aiming for) and I do think the feds are pretty decent about putting their money where their mouth is wrt diversity (in particular when I go to trainings there are a lot more lawyers of color, women, people with visible disabilities than I tend to see in one place).

But it's also true that you have to be sociable anywhere you go. I feel like you're getting hung up on some distinction between "small talk" and plain old talking to people. Admittedly I have the same conversation every day with the (lovely) guy who does the trash on my floor - how are you doing, look at that weather, too bad it's Monday/at least we're nearly halfway through/nearly at the weekend, have a good day. But I also chat with my colleagues, opposing counsel, witnesses, etc. Chatted with a witness this week about how he grew up in NYC and tries to take his kids back there regularly because he feels like if they never get out of our (small rural) state they grow up not getting important things about human differences and how people get along. It just makes working together easier.

Finally, it may simply be that you were not a good fit for the firm you were at this summer. I have worked places (well, one place) where I just did not fit with anyone there/they didn't fit with me. So find someplace better to work.

(Re: the birthday party - to be honest I'm going to assume any firm that does the SEO stuff is hoping to get some kind of social capital out of it; of course they had insincere motives. You not returning, though, was unlikely to be connected to any of that - many diversity positions don't guarantee future employment. You can question their motives, which would probably be pretty fair, or you can use it for your own purposes to get ahead.)

(Re: famous minority attorneys - I think there's a confirmation issue in that people who go into government are more likely to get nationally known, so I'm not sure it entirely tells the whole story. Frankly I don't think most famous attorneys are biglaw partners - your average person can't name many biglaw partners.)

I just wanted the other firm folks to like me. Why else would I allow them to break labor laws and take up all their grunt work so they could go home and see their families while I was stuck in a glass office?

On second thought, I don’t think I have a problem making small talk or being social. I went to all the events and spoke with folks until the work environment got hostile. Who among us would not want to socialize or go out their office when senior counsels were bullying them and telling them to go home, and partners were noticing and potentially getting ready to terminate you? It’s hard to keep your head up in that kind of situation. I really am hoping that this was not a good firm fit and its just a one off.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Wasn't this SEO? So you were getting paid? And it's one summer - they were threatening to terminate you from the program early? Why would they bother?

I guess I don't really understand what you mean by any of this.

[ConLaw2017]

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[ConLaw2017]

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[cavalier1138]

Assuming this hasn't been an extremely long troll, I truly pity the attorney who one day has to deal with you as opposing counsel. Or co-counsel. Or at all.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Wasn't this SEO? So you were getting paid? And it's one summer - they were threatening to terminate you from the program early? Why would they bother?

I guess I don't really understand what you mean by any of this.

I was just as taken aback as you are. Compensation is firm specific and not transparent. Believe it or not, my firm actually is ranked very highly in Vault's Compensation Rankings but when the other interns disclosed their pay I found out I was getting 40% less than everyone else initially.

On the termination point, I stayed at the office on my first day until 11:30 working on a memo that was due the next morning. After I turned it in, I was given negative feedback over a feature that I explicitly requested more time on notwithstanding the fact that I had never worked in a law firm before. After than, rumors began to circulate that I was not "biglaw material" and would not be at the firm much longer, which I assume is code for somebody being fired. Given that I was only going to be there for a few weeks, I don't know why they would have rushed to such a harsh measure based on something so small. But, again race prejudice does offer a satisfactory explanation...

None of this makes any sense. SEO is what it is; everyone (at the same firm) should be paid the same (however, if you were the only intern at your firm then I guess you were just SOL compared to other firms, it's not breaking labor laws, and the point of interns is to do grunt work). The memo/feedback/rumors just don't make sense. Either there's something going on that you're not getting/explaining, or they're just psychopaths.

[ConLaw2017]

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[cavalier1138]

Assuming this hasn't been an extremely long troll, I truly pity the attorney who one day has to deal with you as opposing counsel. Or co-counsel. Or at all.

Why do you say that? I just want to help the U.S. government or Texas win cases in its appellate courts. I have nothing against anyone. How is any of this my fault? Its my fault I stayed from 8-11 to please these guys and they reacted with vitriol? Its my fault they pay me less than all my similarly situated peers? Its my fault the elderly attorney blasted harry styles in my face and danced in front of my office? What am I supposed to do? Not every black lawyer has the money to do what Michael Jackson did and become white.

Ok. So this is trolling. Cool.

How bored do you have to be to do shit like this?

[ConLaw2017]

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[lucretius_]

I just wanted the other firm folks to like me. Why else would I allow them to break labor laws and take up all their grunt work so they could go home and see their families while I was stuck in a glass office?

No one is ever under any obligation to treat you the way you want to be treated. Regardless of the way that you treat them, they do not have to reciprocate. This all gets so much worse when someone says, "But, I did this for you, and this is how you treat me?"

Yes, that is how you were treated. Maybe it was unfair, and I'm sure it felt awful. But part of learning to respect other people is recognizing that you are not in control of their actions. Trying to turn this whole thing around on them and say that you deserve none of the blame is completely unfair and does little to advance your point. In fact, I getting the impression that this assertion, (not my fault!) is the primary reason people are reading your story and getting the impression that you were being the dick.

I can't tell you what your career path should be, and most people here are not qualified to do so either. I can say that if you keep thinking that you deserve to be treated a certain way because of your intelligence, hard work, or [insert other self-affirming quality], you are going to continue to have a bad time in your career and personal relationships.

[ConLaw2017]

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[A. Nony Mouse]

Compensation does differ - check the website.

Does compensation differ by firm, or within a firm? Because if within a firm, it doesn't make any sense that this would be about race discrimination when SEO interns are all diverse students. (If you're comparing to non-SEOs, don't.)

[ConLaw2017]

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[lucretius_]

Thank you for your contribution and input. I greatly appreciate it.

This is what you just said (in part):

"No one is ever under any obligation to treat you the way you want to be treated. Regardless of the way that you treat them, they do not have to reciprocate. This all gets so much worse when someone says, "But, I did this for you, and this is how you treat me?""

I disagree. I feel that your response is based on an assumption that disparages self-respect. I live by the golden rule: "treat others the way you want to be treated." You are right on one issue. I have no right to tell that person how to treat me. At the same time, if I sacrifice my time and effort to advance a cause that redounds solely to someone else's benefit so that they can go home and enjoy their family while I cannot see mine, the least these people can do is acknowledge me and treat me with a minimum level of self respect. Every human is entitled to that. As a minority I am particularly sensitive to this. Why the hell is everyone else in the office (most of whom happen to be white) entitled to be treated with a basic level of dignity, but I am not? Do you not see how this kind of reasoning and conditioning can be particularly harmful for underrepresented groups who have traditionally been subjected to this treatment as a matter of course?

I did not beat systemic racism and poverty, go to 3 WASP institutions, and slave my butt away on my work to be treated like a house n*****. I am not asking them to respect me because of my credentials. I am asking them to respect me because up to a certain point before things became intolerable, I extended the same respect to them by working hours I don't have to work, for too little pay, and disparaging treatment. If they can't agree that I am deserving of this basic treatment, why do they even want me there (other than cheap labor)?

Every human should be acknowledged and treated with respect, yes. In a perfect world this means that everyone would treat everyone with respect and dignity. But some people (possibly most people) are assholes and do not hold this worldview. They do not treat you like a human being, and it's belittling, ethically wrong, and provides others insight into the repugnance of their moral character. This, however, does not mean that you or anyone is entitled to the same kind of treatment.

The golden rule is about how you choose to treat others. The quintessential example of the golden rule is treating those that treat you poorly with the respect and dignity that you talk about. But, like I said, they are under no obligation to treat you the same. And if they don't treat you the way you want to be treated, the golden rule would have you continue to treat them with respect and dignity.

You're absolutely right that people either intentionally choose to not act this way or are otherwise oblivious to the basic human dignity of those around them. They are everywhere and I bet both you and I have treated people poorly before. The challenge is how we respond but reflecting on our flaws and in what way we choose to treat people regardless of their actions.

[njdevils2626]

Compensation does differ - check the website.

Does compensation differ by firm, or within a firm? Because if within a firm, it doesn't make any sense that this would be about race discrimination when SEO interns are all diverse students. (If you're comparing to non-SEOs, don't.)

The comparison is by firm so my firm (x) at least to my knowledge is paying 30%-40% less than the other firms (each of which has a variable rate). This argument is just based on the disclosures I have procured from 20-30 folks.

In that case, sucks, but you have zero reason to complain. I highly doubt they hid salary from you when they made the offer. You accepted, quit comparing yourself to others

[ConLaw2017]

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[ConLaw2017]

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[njdevils2626]

Compensation does differ - check the website.

Does compensation differ by firm, or within a firm? Because if within a firm, it doesn't make any sense that this would be about race discrimination when SEO interns are all diverse students. (If you're comparing to non-SEOs, don't.)

The comparison is by firm so my firm (x) at least to my knowledge is paying 30%-40% less than the other firms (each of which has a variable rate). This argument is just based on the disclosures I have procured from 20-30 folks.

In that case, sucks, but you have zero reason to complain. I highly doubt they hid salary from you when they made the offer. You accepted, quit comparing yourself to others

I accepted thinking that my pay was on par with everyone else. So your implicit assumption, that the deal was made with complete compensation knowledge, is incorrect. Really need to come up with better arguments and maybe grow a heart...

The only implicit assumption you should have made was that your compensation would be equal to other SEO positions at your firm, which you've admitted it was. Just because your firm pays less than comparable firms is not reason to complain. That's on you for not doing your research beforehand

[ConLaw2017]

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