0L Advice? Forum

[A. Nony Mouse]

If you have contributed constructive feedback to this discussion and were not here just to decrease the likelihood of a lawsuit (that was never going to happen)

...what? is this a serious suggestion that people from OP's firm were posting to gaslight him out of fear that he would sue them?

[barkschool]

If you have contributed constructive feedback to this discussion and were not here just to decrease the likelihood of a lawsuit (that was never going to happen)

...what? is this a serious suggestion that people from OP's firm were posting to gaslight him out of fear that he would sue them?

I was just about to fire up the law suit machine.

These meddling kids!

[AJordan]

OP, here's some free advice from someone who has spent over a decade working in one of those "no education jobs." The next time someone does something that violates company policy, go talk to HR. Don't put it on the internet.

[rpupkin]

OP, here's some free advice from someone who has spent over a decade working in one of those "no education jobs." The next time someone does something that violates company policy, go talk to HR. Don't put it on the internet.

Your advice is not helpful in the law-firm context. If a partner violates company policy, it's generally not in the interest of an associate or staff member to go to HR. The HR department has very little sway at most law firms.

But I do agree with the "don't put it on the internet" part.

[AJordan]

OP, here's some free advice from someone who has spent over a decade working in one of those "no education jobs." The next time someone does something that violates company policy, go talk to HR. Don't put it on the internet.

Your advice is not helpful in the law-firm context. If a partner violates company policy, it's generally not in the interest of an associate or staff member to go to HR. The HR department has very little sway at most law firms.

But I do agree with the "don't put it on the internet" part.

Cheerfully withdrawn.

[elendinel]

This is not my fault. I played the game by the rules and ended up in my lucky position even though, statistically speaking, I should have ended up working a menial job with no education like most of my childhood friends did. Just because your cards were not as good, or your law school is not as good, or your college was not as good, or your opportunities were not as good does not give you permission to come on here and trash me. I had to fight for everything I have now and you and I can fully recognize that we are both where we are by chance - no one disputes this. It is also not my fault or responsibility to assuage other's insecurity or unwillingness to acknowledge race discrimination in our law schools and law firms. You want to know the real reason why these guys reacted so violently to me? I'm a counter-stereotype. For some of you, because of residential segregation, odds are you have never lived in a diverse area much less seen a Latino or African-American who could hold their own in an intellectual tangle - this is probably the first time (and last time) you will have seen or interacted with a nergo with my background. I'm sorry I deleted my prior posts because they are proof of this. Our natural response in this situation is feel under attack and try to restore stasis by getting rid of the disturbance. Fair. The only reason I spoke out was because I wanted career advice and I felt that speaking out was in everyone's interest.

Because let me tell you right know, you all who know me know damn well that there is no way anyone will be able to completely blacklist someone with my background from every U.S. lawfirm, much less the government (I'd imagine they would laugh at you if you tried to tell them who to hire), or academia. But don't complain when these guys treat you like they treated me and you regret that you did not heed my warning. The only reason I was put out so early was because I'm such a counter-stereotype and will be practice ready in such a short amount of time that these guys literally cannot take me. But if you think for one second these partners (or any firm) will care about you when you start becoming a burden in your senior years and eat into their profit margins (and don't look like everyone around you), you are crazy. Good luck.

Is this real life?

From one racial minority to another:

No one here is saying that it's impossible you're facing discrimination. What people are telling you is that very little of what you've offered as proof of discrimination (aside from the "go back to Africa" comment) bolsters your argument, and that you're undermining your own arguments with some of the things you're saying. You are undermining your argument by using what other people at other firms get paid as proof that you're being undervalued, especially considering you apparently admitted that you are getting paid just as much as every other intern in your firm/program. You undermine your argument when you refer to working long hours as "slavery" and argue "yeah but no one else has to work this hard, so obviously, slavery." You are undermining your argument by arguing that someone dancing in front of your office is an obvious sign of aggression and by assuming ill intent from an otherwise innocuous song, when there are numerous other interpretations for that behavior and when you're not providing any additional context to explain why anyone should feel the same way you feel about it. You are undermining your argument by not offering anything else to suggest that you are actually being singled out for your race (such as: of the four black kids in the diversity program, all of them work longer hours than the other interns or are somehow being paid less than the other interns in the program; that the racially insensitive comments have come from the dancing partner and are frequently uttered by people in the firm; that you are singled out for mistakes that the same associates/partners have ignored in other non-black interns, etc.). You want people to accept your feelings and intuition at face value, but then consistently do all sorts of things to make us question your feelings and intuition. This is why people are scrutinizing your "message."

As for people stomping on your hopes and dreams when they don't know the full picture, if you're right that people's advice is irrelevant because they're making assumptions that wouldn't make sense if they had the full picture, then why get mad at them for giving advice based on all the information they have? Why assume ill intent from people using the small amount of info you're giving them to give you advice, as if they're all just jealous of your achievements and looking to tear you down? You're getting paranoid because you're so insecure about being who you are and having done what you did that you're seeing an enemy in everyone who doesn't readily agree with you, when some of us are actually trying to help you and trying to explain to you that treating everyone like the enemy is a surefire way to destroy your career before it can fully get off the ground.

You are clearly a smart guy; you have great grades and have been admitted into some very prestigious schools, which is no small task. So you have to be capable of understanding that things are not going to get better for you if you keep insisting that everyone else is the problem (even if you're 100% right that racism is involved in this particular firm). At best, you need to get some help and understand how your behavior attracts poor behavior from others; at worst you need to get some help to understand how your behavior is causing all these negative interactions with others. You have such an inferiority complex, and maybe some other issues, that you're going to destroy everything you worked hard to build up if you don't get this under wraps and stop trying to find the enemy in every setback you experience.

[Samarcan]

I'm sympathetic to what many of the regulars have posted here in terms of their well-meaning advice to OP, but, also, posting about how this kid has made a terrible mistake by partially or effectively disclosing his identity, or made it easier for some to figure out who he is based on LinkedIn, or whatever, is giving too much credit to TLS and to the long-term memory of this whole legal ecosystem.

In 2 year's time, no will except the very few regular long-term posters here will remember OP. None of this will make any difference to the overwhelming majority of his experiences during law school, on-campus recruiting, post-law school employment, etc. There's a whole country out there (here) that gives no fucks about a series of ill-advised online posts made during 0L. So, if OP is still reading: relax.

I'm as much a fan of this website as anyone, but let's not think this guy's made some colossal mistake by giving us too much info so that we can put together his identity. Even if some people can, and have, it will be old news by the end of the summer.

[it's allgood]

.

[Nebby]

Does anyone else find themselves thinking slightly less of YLS, these days??

It's a good thing they don't have grades

[Nebby]

I was just as taken aback as you are. I did a project for a lawyer on my first day and stayed until 11:30 to get it done. I turned it in the next day with a proviso that I would need more time if he or she wanted something in particular to be done in a more through fashion.

When the attorney gave you the assignment, did they give you a due date? Why did you stay until 11:30PM? Why did you turn in work product that you admitted was subpar? Why did you not finish the product in a thorough fashion from the get-go?

The lawyer accepted the assignment and then offered negative feedback on the very same part of the assignment that I requested more time on.

The attorney offered you feedback because, when one turns in an assignment, the assigning attorney assumes that it was completed in a thorough fashion. When the attorney saw that you did not, they let you know that the work product was unacceptable. It is not the attorney's fault that you knowingly turned in subpar work product.

Later, I mentioned that it was a tad odd that I was an intern staying late until 11 in the night and everyone went ballistic. Notwithstanding the fact that I am not even a 0L yet, rumors began to circulate that I was not "biglaw material" and would be shown the door soon which I assume is code for being fired. I don't know why their reaction to something so small was so harsh

You chose, of your own volition, to stay until 11. They likely went "ballistic" because this was a self-inflicted error that you attempted to pin on someone else. The rumors - if they occurred - would have been that you are not "biglaw material" because you think it is acceptable to turn in subpar work product, particularly when you admit that it is subpar as you hand it in.

[cvillain]

I'm sympathetic to what many of the regulars have posted here in terms of their well-meaning advice to OP, but, also, posting about how this kid has made a terrible mistake by partially or effectively disclosing his identity, or made it easier for some to figure out who he is based on LinkedIn, or whatever, is giving too much credit to TLS and to the long-term memory of this whole legal ecosystem.

In 2 year's time, no will except the very few regular long-term posters here will remember OP. None of this will make any difference to the overwhelming majority of his experiences during law school, on-campus recruiting, post-law school employment, etc. There's a whole country out there (here) that gives no fucks about a series of ill-advised online posts made during 0L. So, if OP is still reading: relax.

I'm as much a fan of this website as anyone, but let's not think this guy's made some colossal mistake by giving us too much info so that we can put together his identity. Even if some people can, and have, it will be old news by the end of the summer.

Posting with your real name is practically enforced on some professional forums. I don’t think that’s the problem. The problem is that he has made some big accusations against his firm, and the name of that firm isn’t a secret to anyone who cares to look. It’s inevitably going to get back to the firm.

Why bother being anonymous or partially anonymous on this board at all if you’re going to post enough detail that throwing some of your key phrases in a google search reveals your identity? I’m serious what’s the point? Why do any of us bother with anonymity?

[throwaway2016gjdm]

hory sheet, how did i miss this epic troll thread???

[lucretius_]

hory sheet, how did i miss this epic troll thread???

Three started by OP actually, involving multiple accounts. He's been fucking busy.

[warmcherrysoda]

.

[stego]

I was just as taken aback as you are. I did a project for a lawyer on my first day and stayed until 11:30 to get it done. I turned it in the next day with a proviso that I would need more time if he or she wanted something in particular to be done in a more through fashion.

When the attorney gave you the assignment, did they give you a due date? Why did you stay until 11:30PM? Why did you turn in work product that you admitted was subpar? Why did you not finish the product in a thorough fashion from the get-go?

The lawyer accepted the assignment and then offered negative feedback on the very same part of the assignment that I requested more time on.

The attorney offered you feedback because, when one turns in an assignment, the assigning attorney assumes that it was completed in a thorough fashion. When the attorney saw that you did not, they let you know that the work product was unacceptable. It is not the attorney's fault that you knowingly turned in subpar work product.

Later, I mentioned that it was a tad odd that I was an intern staying late until 11 in the night and everyone went ballistic. Notwithstanding the fact that I am not even a 0L yet, rumors began to circulate that I was not "biglaw material" and would be shown the door soon which I assume is code for being fired. I don't know why their reaction to something so small was so harsh

You chose, of your own volition, to stay until 11. They likely went "ballistic" because this was a self-inflicted error that you attempted to pin on someone else. The rumors - if they occurred - would have been that you are not "biglaw material" because you think it is acceptable to turn in subpar work product, particularly when you admit that it is subpar as you hand it in.

Dumb question perhaps but what's the difference between "turning in subpar work product while admitting it is subpar" vs. "Here is what I have so far, as you can see I'm struggling with XYZ, so can I have some help with that?"

I agree that OP erred by staying so late in the office and not asking for help but at least he said "I need some more time to get this right."

[it's allgood]

Does anyone else find themselves thinking slightly less of YLS, these days??

It's a good thing they don't have grades

.

[it's allgood]

I'm sympathetic to what many of the regulars have posted here in terms of their well-meaning advice to OP, but, also, posting about how this kid has made a terrible mistake by partially or effectively disclosing his identity, or made it easier for some to figure out who he is based on LinkedIn, or whatever, is giving too much credit to TLS and to the long-term memory of this whole legal ecosystem.

In 2 year's time, no will except the very few regular long-term posters here will remember OP. None of this will make any difference to the overwhelming majority of his experiences during law school, on-campus recruiting, post-law school employment, etc. There's a whole country out there (here) that gives no fucks about a series of ill-advised online posts made during 0L. So, if OP is still reading: relax.

I'm as much a fan of this website as anyone, but let's not think this guy's made some colossal mistake by giving us too much info so that we can put together his identity. Even if some people can, and have, it will be old news by the end of the summer.

Posting with your real name is practically enforced on some professional forums. I don’t think that’s the problem. The problem is that he has made some big accusations against his firm, and the name of that firm isn’t a secret to anyone who cares to look. It’s inevitably going to get back to the firm.

Why bother being anonymous or partially anonymous on this board at all if you’re going to post enough detail that throwing some of your key phrases in a google search reveals your identity? I’m serious what’s the point? Why do any of us bother with anonymity?

Yeah, a quick google search for black YLS students who went to Oxford and did Stanford undergrad reveals that the poster is actually Cory Booker, junior US Senator from New Jersey...

.

[elendinel]

Dumb question perhaps but what's the difference between "turning in subpar work product while admitting it is subpar" vs. "Here is what I have so far, as you can see I'm struggling with XYZ, so can I have some help with that?"

I agree that OP erred by staying so late in the office and not asking for help but at least he said "I need some more time to get this right."

When you have a question you shouldn't turn in what you have (after working on it for 14 hours) and say "Here's what I have so far, if you want me to do a better job, give me more time." It makes you look inefficient, while also making it clear that you don't realize what you did is inefficient, because you're essentially blaming the timeline on your ability to get everything done in the 14 hours you were given. (This is assuming OP had a next-day deadline and was expected to turn in the work when he turned it in; if he had even a couple hours between the time he turned it in and the time he was expected to turn it in, he should have spent those couple hours trying to ask for help in completing the work, not giving up and handing in half-completed work). Also, saying you know what you turned in is subpar is admitting that you could have done better; when coupled with the fact that you didn't do the obvious things to make the work better (like ask for help/etc.) it doesn't give off the best impression.

If you need more help, you ought to say (the earlier, the better), "Hey I've been working on ___ and I need some help; is there a sample I could look at/is there someone I can discuss what I've done so far with?/[whatever]?" In other words, you need to be proactive about getting help while being efficient. No one wants you to spend 8AM-11PM working on a task that should have taken 5 hours and then turning in incomplete work because you tried to go it alone and failed, rather than asking someone at 11AM for a sample/help. It shows that you're inefficient and that you don't really understand how to work in a billable environment. People expect you to encounter projects you've never done before and to need help completing them, but they also expect you to be proactive in getting that help as early as possible so that the project still gets done within budget.

If a project actually does need 15 hours after all and you need more time, you also ought to say, as soon as you realize it's going to take longer to complete the project, "Hey I've been working on ____; this is where I am right now, and it's taken me so long because _____. Is it okay if I spend more time on this? If you have any tips for getting the project done faster, I'm all ears"/[some variant thereof]. In other words, you need to be proactive about telling people what your progress is and letting them know why it's taking you a long time to complete it. No one wants you to come to them at the last minute to find out that the project was more complicated than everyone expected and that it hasn't been completed; people can try to help you complete deadline/try to get an extension if you come to them early, but there's not much anyone can do if the project's done at 4PM today and you wait until 3:30 to tell anyone you need more time to finish it. For an intern it's not as big a deal because no one's giving you critical work and they're probably already working the assumption that your work will have to be completely redone into their timelines anyway, but this could have serious consequences for a first-year.

[Nebby]

I think it's a safe assumption that OP didn't have a next day deadline. Who gives an 0L - basically worthless in terms of ability because they've yet to even start school - an assignment that takes 15+ hours with a next day deadline.

Here's what happened (most likely): OP gets assignment. Assigning attorney likely set no deadline because no one gives an 0L pressing matters. OP wanted to make a good impression, so he unwisely worked until 11pm so he could get it "done" quickly. Upon handing it in - the assigning attorney rightfully assumed and expected it to be done if OP is handing it in - the attorney taught OP a valuable lesson in that you shouldn't turn in unfinished work, shouldn't give yourself a target date that requires late nights or subpar work product unless necessary, and that you shouldn't blame others for your own fuck up. This was OP's first lesson in taking "ownership" of his work.

It's a good thing it happened now and not when the stakes are much higher. OP should learn that biglaw doesn't care about how many gold stars you got in middle school, how many "law" courses you took in undergrad, or how "hard" you tried on your first assignment; biglaw only cares about good work product and the skills it takes to achieve such product. The second you demonstrate incompetence, the sharks start circling (or in the case of Latham, the hounds).

[throwaway2016gjdm]

hory sheet, how did i miss this epic troll thread???

Three started by OP actually, involving multiple accounts. He's been fucking busy.

Damn. Just saw his LinkedIn. Op is legit. Which makes this whole thing even sadder.

[rpupkin]

hory sheet, how did i miss this epic troll thread???

Three started by OP actually, involving multiple accounts. He's been fucking busy.

Damn. Just saw his LinkedIn. Op is legit. Which makes this whole thing even sadder.

I'm not picking on you throwaway—you're not the only one doing linked in stalking in this thread—but I think it's unfortunate that TLS'ers are so eager to try to figure out someone's IRL identity.

[UVA2B]

hory sheet, how did i miss this epic troll thread???

Three started by OP actually, involving multiple accounts. He's been fucking busy.

Damn. Just saw his LinkedIn. Op is legit. Which makes this whole thing even sadder.

I'm not picking on you throwaway—you're not the only one doing linked in stalking in this thread—but I think it's unfortunate that TLS'ers are so eager to try to figure out someone's IRL identity.

It seemed at least marginally more to be helpful in this case, but stuff like this really annoys me because it smacks of all the negative stuff that can be said about TLS/general internet users in dark rooms investigating/bullying other users for ridicule or general internet shaming. It's the really bad part of online communities that really has no place here.

[rpupkin]

It seemed at least marginally more to be helpful in this case, but stuff like this really annoys me because it smacks of all the negative stuff that can be said about TLS/general internet users in dark rooms investigating/bullying other users for ridicule or general internet shaming. It's the really bad part of online communities that really has no place here.

Re the bolded, I don't mind comments like "Hey, I'd consider being more careful about disclosing details that could make it easy for someone to figure out who you are." But there's something intimidating/offensive about "I looked you up and can see where you work."

I go out of my way not to try to figure out the IRL identity of TLS posters. I guess it's human nature to be curious, but I think it's important to respect the culture of anonymity.

[UVA2B]

It seemed at least marginally more to be helpful in this case, but stuff like this really annoys me because it smacks of all the negative stuff that can be said about TLS/general internet users in dark rooms investigating/bullying other users for ridicule or general internet shaming. It's the really bad part of online communities that really has no place here.

Re the bolded, I don't mind comments like "Hey, I'd consider being more careful about disclosing details that could make it easy for someone to figure out who you are." But there's something intimidating/offensive about "I looked you up and can see where you work."

I go out of my way not to try to figure out the IRL identity of TLS posters. I guess it's human nature to be curious, but I think it's important to respect the culture of anonymity.

Absolutely, I was merely agreeing with you, while allowing at least one or two people mentioning that they managed to find them and they should be more careful in the future for their own future/career. There is no good reason to try to figure out the identity of fellow TLS posters, particularly maliciously like happens here. And if someone wanted to go so far as to find that person, they should let the person know via PM so as not to broadcast/promote the behavior.

[throwaway2016gjdm]

It seemed at least marginally more to be helpful in this case, but stuff like this really annoys me because it smacks of all the negative stuff that can be said about TLS/general internet users in dark rooms investigating/bullying other users for ridicule or general internet shaming. It's the really bad part of online communities that really has no place here.

Re the bolded, I don't mind comments like "Hey, I'd consider being more careful about disclosing details that could make it easy for someone to figure out who you are." But there's something intimidating/offensive about "I looked you up and can see where you work."

I go out of my way not to try to figure out the IRL identity of TLS posters. I guess it's human nature to be curious, but I think it's important to respect the culture of anonymity.

Absolutely, I was merely agreeing with you, while allowing at least one or two people mentioning that they managed to find them and they should be more careful in the future for their own future/career. There is no good reason to try to figure out the identity of fellow TLS posters, particularly maliciously like happens here. And if someone wanted to go so far as to find that person, they should let the person know via PM so as not to broadcast/promote the behavior.

Agreed. I found it because I was genuinely in disbelief that OP was real. But the guy doesn't need to be punished for being socially awkward or having a lapse of judgement here or there.

ETA: I don't recall quoting any sensitive information, but, for the users who have, it'd be nice to edit it out to protect OP's anonymity (even if they didn't take steps to protect their own anonymity).