0L Advice?

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lucretius_
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Re: 0L Advice?

Postby lucretius_ » Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:44 pm

ConLaw2017 wrote:I don't follow the should-entitle distinction. If someone ought to provide me with something, they have an obligation to hand that thing over - in other words, I am entitled to it. They can choose to not honor the obligation, but that inaction does not make the obligation and corresponding entitlement any less real. As for the Golden Rule, you are right. But there comes a point when one cannot exercise the charity becoming of Jesus Christ of Nazareth..


An ought is a prescriptive ethical distinction: People ought to treat other people with respect. This leads to a moral obligation: I ought to treat people with respect. Ethical = external rule. Moral = individual principle. Now, you're claiming, because you believe in the above ethical principle, that all people should adhere to it and thus should make a moral choice to follow it by treating others with respect. But that decision is not up to you. The other person does not have to agree with the ethical standard you ascribe to and thus your moral principles. Thus, other people are under no obligation to treat you how you would like to be treated, even if you believe that it is their obligation.

Expecting people to act in accordance with your beliefs is going to lead to suffering because they can choose (and often will choose) not to act according to your ethical standards.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: 0L Advice?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:46 pm

I'm kind of confused by the issue with dancing/Harry Styles.

ConLaw2017
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Re: 0L Advice?

Postby ConLaw2017 » Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:20 pm

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Last edited by ConLaw2017 on Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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jaekeem
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Re: 0L Advice?

Postby jaekeem » Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:37 pm

ConLaw2017 wrote:
lucretius_ wrote:
ConLaw2017 wrote:I don't follow the should-entitle distinction. If someone ought to provide me with something, they have an obligation to hand that thing over - in other words, I am entitled to it. They can choose to not honor the obligation, but that inaction does not make the obligation and corresponding entitlement any less real. As for the Golden Rule, you are right. But there comes a point when one cannot exercise the charity becoming of Jesus Christ of Nazareth..


An ought is a prescriptive ethical distinction: People ought to treat other people with respect. This leads to a moral obligation: I ought to treat people with respect. Ethical = external rule. Moral = individual principle. Now, you're claiming, because you believe in the above ethical principle, that all people should adhere to it and thus should make a moral choice to follow it by treating others with respect. But that decision is not up to you. The other person does not have to agree with the ethical standard you ascribe to and thus your moral principles. Thus, other people are under no obligation to treat you how you would like to be treated, even if you believe that it is their obligation.

Expecting people to act in accordance with your beliefs is going to lead to suffering because they can choose (and often will choose) not to act according to your ethical standards.


Not so. The principle "people ought to treat other people with respect" is an command that is imposed by society not by idiosyncratic individualistic preferences. Otherwise, it would be impossible for society to function - the discussion about small talk, reciprocity, and the need for both to ensure a functioning workplace earlier in this thread proves that. I find it curious that we are debating whether people are entitled to basic self-respect as a broad societal rule, didn't we just celebrate the 4th of July? Folks need to read Fredrick Douglas' Speech on the matter.

But even if you don't believe there is some broad unstated societal rule that commands us all to treat each other with self respect (in which case I envy you for living in a pre-Hobbsian universe) The 13th Amendment explicitly says that " Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." Notice two things. This command is not specific to the state - rather it reaches individuals as well (the 21st amendment is the only other provision that also reaches individual action). Second, if the Constitution does not count as an external command source, I don't know what does. Making a diversity intern work from 8-11, for substandard pay, while creating a hostile work environment and calling him racial slurs while throwing a sham token party for him is about as close to slavery as we are going to get in biglaw. This claim is actually quite broad because treating minorities as lesser than (especially in a system where no one else is subjected to that treatment) is a badge or incident of slavery that is also prescribed by the amendment. I don't understand why these people feel the need to debate my self worth.

Finally, the older counsel blasted Harry Styles' Sign of the Times in my face and then danced in front of my office for 20 seconds. I don't know if his faculties are deteriorating but he was probably telling me to get lost...


is this real

lucretius_
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Re: 0L Advice?

Postby lucretius_ » Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:42 pm

ConLaw2017 wrote:Second, if the Constitution does not count as an external command source, I don't know what does.


People can act in any way they want, regardless of the "external command source". This all started with my claim that if you expect people to always respect you, you're going to be let down because they won't. You can let this consume you and hope that everyone will like you because you do things for them, or you can be at peace with the fact that some people you meet are not going to like you and will not respect you, regardless of the benefit you believe you provide for them.

ConLaw2017
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Re: 0L Advice?

Postby ConLaw2017 » Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:42 pm

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Last edited by ConLaw2017 on Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

ConLaw2017
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Re: 0L Advice?

Postby ConLaw2017 » Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:44 pm

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Last edited by ConLaw2017 on Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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jaekeem
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Re: 0L Advice?

Postby jaekeem » Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:55 pm

ConLaw2017 wrote:
jaekeem wrote:
ConLaw2017 wrote:
lucretius_ wrote:
ConLaw2017 wrote:I don't follow the should-entitle distinction. If someone ought to provide me with something, they have an obligation to hand that thing over - in other words, I am entitled to it. They can choose to not honor the obligation, but that inaction does not make the obligation and corresponding entitlement any less real. As for the Golden Rule, you are right. But there comes a point when one cannot exercise the charity becoming of Jesus Christ of Nazareth..


An ought is a prescriptive ethical distinction: People ought to treat other people with respect. This leads to a moral obligation: I ought to treat people with respect. Ethical = external rule. Moral = individual principle. Now, you're claiming, because you believe in the above ethical principle, that all people should adhere to it and thus should make a moral choice to follow it by treating others with respect. But that decision is not up to you. The other person does not have to agree with the ethical standard you ascribe to and thus your moral principles. Thus, other people are under no obligation to treat you how you would like to be treated, even if you believe that it is their obligation.

Expecting people to act in accordance with your beliefs is going to lead to suffering because they can choose (and often will choose) not to act according to your ethical standards.


Not so. The principle "people ought to treat other people with respect" is an command that is imposed by society not by idiosyncratic individualistic preferences. Otherwise, it would be impossible for society to function - the discussion about small talk, reciprocity, and the need for both to ensure a functioning workplace earlier in this thread proves that. I find it curious that we are debating whether people are entitled to basic self-respect as a broad societal rule, didn't we just celebrate the 4th of July? Folks need to read Fredrick Douglas' Speech on the matter.

But even if you don't believe there is some broad unstated societal rule that commands us all to treat each other with self respect (in which case I envy you for living in a pre-Hobbsian universe) The 13th Amendment explicitly says that " Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." Notice two things. This command is not specific to the state - rather it reaches individuals as well (the 21st amendment is the only other provision that also reaches individual action). Second, if the Constitution does not count as an external command source, I don't know what does. Making a diversity intern work from 8-11, for substandard pay, while creating a hostile work environment and calling him racial slurs while throwing a sham token party for him is about as close to slavery as we are going to get in biglaw. This claim is actually quite broad because treating minorities as lesser than (especially in a system where no one else is subjected to that treatment) is a badge or incident of slavery that is also prescribed by the amendment. I don't understand why these people feel the need to debate my self worth.

Finally, the older counsel blasted Harry Styles' Sign of the Times in my face and then danced in front of my office for 20 seconds. I don't know if his faculties are deteriorating but he was probably telling me to get lost...


is this real


Yes, everything I have said thus far is true. I just felt the need to push back against the claim that every human is not entitled to and deserving of self-respect. Is this 1731? Why is this such a big deal?


I don't think anyone disagrees with that on principle, but I'm not seeing how that's in any way relevant to your personal big law experiences.

Comparing a shitty work experience to slavery is...just odd. I don't see it. The stories you've posted in this thread just seem like shady business practice or your own naivete. They don't even come close to some of the horror stories you can find in legal employment.

lucretius_
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Re: 0L Advice?

Postby lucretius_ » Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:59 pm

Wow, I really came off like a dick then, haha.

I most certainly believe that you are deserving of respect. Just don't expect everyone to feel the same or that your actions (helping them out) will have a connection to how they treat you. Seems like you are really hung up on these people not liking you and you're putting a tremendous amount of blame on them because they did not recognize and praise your work. That's always going to happen, everywhere, because some people will decide that they don't like you. Come to terms with that reality and try not to let it consume you.

ConLaw2017
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Re: 0L Advice?

Postby ConLaw2017 » Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:10 pm

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Last edited by ConLaw2017 on Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

deleteyouraccount
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Re: 0L Advice?

Postby deleteyouraccount » Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:22 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:Oh shit, now I remember the OP.

Is this just going to turn in to another thread where he creates a series of alt accounts to pretend that he's a summer intern before launching into his description of all the law classes he took in undergrad?


OP is not pretending.

OP, do you realize that by posting your law school, race, sex, and city, not to mention firm ranking/undergrad, you've outed yourself to anyone with knowledge of your summer program who has been paying the least bit of attention? There is only one person who matches your description. Really, how many 0L diversity law firm internships do you think there are? To the extent that this thread makes you look crazy, you would be best served to delete your posts.

Also, it's a bad look to say you're getting a JD in appellate litigation on your LinkedIn. Something else you may want to fix. (And no, none of your "unique circumstances" will give you a meaningful leg up in actually becoming an appellate litigator.)

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: 0L Advice?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:22 pm

I mean, "as close as we are going to get to slavery in big law" Isn't really very close to slavery at all. You applied for a highly-sought-after job and you're getting paid and it's 8 weeks.

As for the "calling him racial slurs" part...why did you bury the lede? Why not bring this up from the beginning if you were claiming racial discrimination?

ConLaw2017
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Re: 0L Advice?

Postby ConLaw2017 » Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:33 pm

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Last edited by ConLaw2017 on Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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crumb cake
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Re: 0L Advice?

Postby crumb cake » Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:36 pm

ConLaw2017 wrote:Forgive my bluntness, but I am a tad bit cynical about your small talk description. Often times, these soft skill assessments are just proxies for gender or race discrimination - especially in biglaw


:?:

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jaekeem
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Re: 0L Advice?

Postby jaekeem » Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:36 pm

ConLaw2017 wrote:
deleteyouraccount wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:Oh shit, now I remember the OP.

Is this just going to turn in to another thread where he creates a series of alt accounts to pretend that he's a summer intern before launching into his description of all the law classes he took in undergrad?


OP is not pretending.

OP, do you realize that by posting your law school, race, sex, and city, not to mention firm ranking/undergrad, you've outed yourself to anyone with knowledge of your summer program who has been paying the least bit of attention? There is only one person who matches your description. Really, how many 0L diversity law firm internships do you think there are? To the extent that this thread makes you look crazy, you would be best served to delete your posts.

Also, it's a bad look to say you're getting a JD in appellate litigation on your LinkedIn. Something else you may want to fix. (And no, none of your "unique circumstances" will give you a meaningful leg up in actually becoming an appellate litigator.)


Okay, I will delete after two points get addressed. First, I tried on multiple occasions to address this problem diplomatically but as this thread discloses nothing really happened. What more, was I supposed to do? Obviously, there is some miscommunication going on here. Second, why can't I list the specialization? Other folks do it, and its my life goal. Doing countless appellate moots, working for the government, and participating in pro bono has to count for something.


My understanding is that purely appellate work is generally reserved for those coming out of, at the very least, COA clerkships.

Listing it before you've even gotten a semester of grades back just makes you look like you're putting the cart before the horse, regardless of your credentials/work experience.

ConLaw2017
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Re: 0L Advice?

Postby ConLaw2017 » Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:38 pm

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Last edited by ConLaw2017 on Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

ConLaw2017
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Re: 0L Advice?

Postby ConLaw2017 » Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:39 pm

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Last edited by ConLaw2017 on Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: 0L Advice?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:50 pm

ConLaw2017 wrote:Second, why can't I list the specialization? Other folks do it, and its my life goal. Doing countless appellate moots, working for the government, and participating in pro bono has to count for something.

Because the JD is a generalist degree - you don't specialize in law school, unless, say, you earn a certificate in something. You only really specialize once you get out into practice (that is, you can't specialize in appellate litigation until you have a job doing appellate litigation).

ConLaw2017
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Re: 0L Advice?

Postby ConLaw2017 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:07 am

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stego
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Re: 0L Advice?

Postby stego » Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:31 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
ConLaw2017 wrote:Second, why can't I list the specialization? Other folks do it, and its my life goal. Doing countless appellate moots, working for the government, and participating in pro bono has to count for something.

Because the JD is a generalist degree - you don't specialize in law school, unless, say, you earn a certificate in something. You only really specialize once you get out into practice (that is, you can't specialize in appellate litigation until you have a job doing appellate litigation).

I agree w/ Nony - you can't say you're getting a JD in something because a JD isn't "in" anything, it's just a JD.

OP doesn't need the encouragement but fwiw i think you probably could say on a LinkedIn profile that you're interested in appellate lit someday, particularly if there are concrete things you can list that demonstrate that interest. "This is what I want to do" is less presumptuous than "this is what I do."

jlittletree
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Re: 0L Advice?

Postby jlittletree » Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:32 am

Hey man,

So apparently you're real. You seem to have gone underground but since you seem to be intent upon destroying your legal career before its even started, thought I would chime in. As someone who is what the kids these days call a "double minority" (read: pretty into race/class/gender analysis) and who is ahead of you at another T14 (basically, someone who is familiar with some of the spaces and challenges you're navigating), if how you've been conducting yourself on here is how you are in real life, I would be very uninterested in hiring or mentoring you. I'd advise taking notary public off your work experience before you get laughed out of law school and also your LSAT as not only is it considered crass to announce it, yours is on the low side for Yale. Finally, if you're working where I think you are, even if absolutely every "terrible" thing you described happened, you are SOL as they have an excellently curated progressive reputation. What strategies to pursue in that sort of situation where you are going up against an institutional behemoth can be learned in law school, but if you learned those in your 20 law classes at Stanford, you don't appear to be deploying them. This leads me to think there might yet be something for you to learn in school and from the world. I'd meditate on that.

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Mullens
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Re: 0L Advice?

Postby Mullens » Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:50 am

ConLaw2017 wrote:Edited Out


Honestly, you have future law professor written all over you. And I don't mean that in a bad way. You appear to enjoy research and writing and don't want to work with other people. You can take up pro bono appeals and write amicus briefs on the side.

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elendinel
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Re: 0L Advice?

Postby elendinel » Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:36 am

ConLaw2017 wrote:I guess what I am asking is will I be able to work from 8-11, have an intense work ethic, talk about my work, sports, and other small talk matters in the government and progress if I do a good job? Because if my firm is anything like the rest of biglaw, I have no interest in dealing with a place does not make an attempt to reward merit. Is the government the place for me?


:lol:

I get where you're coming from, but let me give you a couple anecdotes from my experiences in the real world so far. Both are real people/real experiences:

Person A was a minority at Generic Firm LLP, who was worried about how being a minority negatively affected her performance at the firm. Person A initially was the kind of person who just wanted to do her job and leave, but then made changes (presumably because she wasn't getting anywhere). Person A became more social overall, and kept her fears about being a minority to herself (aside from occasional commiseration with other minorities in the same position). Person A was gradually trusted with more and more important tasks and was doing fairly well at the firm until she voluntarily decided to go elsewhere, once she had the clout at Generic Firm LLP to get a job at a place that was a better fit for her. People at Generic Firm LLP still speak to Person A regularly and she's remembered fondly by her colleagues; if she wanted to come back, she'd probably be let back in.

Person B was also a minority at the same firm, who had a chip on her shoulder because she felt in her last job she wasn't adequately rewarded for the amount of work and effort she put into her job. Person B also was the type to not socialize much with others, because she didn't think it was important. Her version of socializing was instead to suss out what everyone else was doing at work so she could feel better about her own progress/figure out how to get what they had/figure out if she was getting treated "fairly" and was getting "adequately compensated" for the work she was putting in. She worked much longer hours than everyone else and saw it as a point of pride, but she did it in part by using all sorts of tactics to take work away from others and get it for herself (including using these "social" conversations against people), so it didn't win her any brownie points with her colleagues or with many of the supervisors who recognized what she was doing. Also it turned out the reason she put in more hours was just because it took her at least 50%-100% longer than her colleagues to do the same work, which made her crazy hours seem less impressive once a colleague figured this out/once she started working with more people. Eventually a major client of hers left the firm, and she was SoL on work because most of the other partners had already established good working relationships with others, and none of her colleagues were willing to go to bat for her to get her on good clients, because they didn't want to get stabbed in the back. So she was given reject work to do/work from the partners everyone else had avoided. The chip grew larger. She left to go to a different firm where she faced similar problems and where the chip grew even larger. She's about to make her third move in five years or so. Her reputation at Generic Firm LLP preceded her, and partners at her third move resisted hiring her; if not for the fact that the firm lost a couple associates around the time she was trying to apply, she would not have been hired, but she got lucky.



This is in biglaw, but based on my experience in govt/non-profits socialization is just as important, if not more so, in those areas as it is in biglaw, so I don't think fedgov is going to save you from years of having to like your colleagues. And few if any jobs are going to reward people with good work but no social skills as readily as they will reward people with good work and good social skills. Not only is there more value in the latter than in the former (two skills are better than one), but humans are overall social creatures and you're just going to have to accept that socialization is going to be part and parcel of any career advancement, unless you work for robots.

ConLaw2017
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Re: 0L Advice?

Postby ConLaw2017 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:06 pm

I have messaged everyone on this thread. I believe it is in everyone's interest to comply by the end of the day.

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njdevils2626
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Re: 0L Advice?

Postby njdevils2626 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:19 pm

ConLaw2017 wrote:I have messaged everyone on this thread. I believe it is in everyone's interest to comply by the end of the day.


Can you re-send? I didn't get my message for some reason and I'm really terrified of being found non-compliant by the almighty ConLaw2017




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