data on Assistant DA, assistant US attorney Forum

[appind]

i'm not looking for criminal law at all.

i mentioned IP law only because my background is in engineering and it may allow me to make transition to civil division in AUSA easier if there are AUSA positions in such a practice area. else i wouldn't be leveraging my prior experience or losing any differentiating factor for a civil division work. i understand that a general specialization in administrative law can help one in getting an AUSA position, but i may be wrong there.

as far as i know, AUSA don't remain in their position for life, they exit to other opportunities and not all of them would exit to private practice. i'd be interested to know what government opportunities those who exit to govt typically pursue.

yeah one doesn't need a jd for being an elected rep, but i think there are people who do pursue such roles after their JD. i don't necessarily mean that it's something that i'd do, but i don't want to close the door on such a possibility yet, esp if some AUSA do end up transitioning to it after their stint at US attorney's office.

[cavalier1138]

i'm not looking for criminal law at all.

i mentioned IP law only because my background is in engineering and it may allow me to make transition to civil division in AUSA easier if there are AUSA positions in such a practice area. else i wouldn't be leveraging my prior experience or losing any differentiating factor for a civil division work. i understand that a general specialization in administrative law can help one in getting an AUSA position, but i may be wrong there.

as far as i know, AUSA don't remain in their position for life, they exit to other opportunities and not all of them would exit to private practice. i'd be interested to know what government opportunities those who exit to govt typically pursue.

yeah one doesn't need a jd for being an elected rep, but i think there are people who do pursue such roles after their JD. i don't necessarily mean that it's something that i'd do, but i don't want to close the door on such a possibility yet, esp if some AUSA do end up transitioning to it after their stint at US attorney's office.

Ok, but again, what do you want to do?

Yes, plenty of AUSAs at the bigger, more prestigious offices end up going on to main justice, or become partners at firms, or go in-house, etc. However, at smaller offices (and at some of the larger ones), a lot of AUSAs stay there for their whole careers. And though you say you don't specifically want to run for office, you keep coming back to it as a kind of endgame. I cannot emphasize this enough: if your goal is to run for office, this is not the best way to achieve your goal.

You keep asking about these positions as though your only consideration is the prestige of the job and the exit opportunities, but you haven't indicated what you actually imagine exiting into. You're also overlooking that even though many AUSAs transition to other jobs, their first job was not as an AUSA. It takes a combination of luck and credentials to even become an AUSA in the first place, so it's not a good "stepping stone" to plan on. You just can't count on it happening for you.

[A. Nony Mouse]

i'm not looking for criminal law at all.

i mentioned IP law only because my background is in engineering and it may allow me to make transition to civil division in AUSA easier if there are AUSA positions in such a practice area. else i wouldn't be leveraging my prior experience or losing any differentiating factor for a civil division work. i understand that a general specialization in administrative law can help one in getting an AUSA position, but i may be wrong there.

as far as i know, AUSA don't remain in their position for life, they exit to other opportunities and not all of them would exit to private practice. i'd be interested to know what government opportunities those who exit to govt typically pursue.

yeah one doesn't need a jd for being an elected rep, but i think there are people who do pursue such roles after their JD. i don't necessarily mean that it's something that i'd do, but i don't want to close the door on such a possibility yet, esp if some AUSA do end up transitioning to it after their stint at US attorney's office.

If you're not looking for criminal law at all I'm completely confused about why you're asking about ADAs. As for AUSA numbers, there are way more criminal AUSAs than civil. Admin is probably more helpful for a civil position than it is for a criminal one, but mostly getting litigation experience will be helpful.

Cavalier is right about exit options out of an AUSA gig, as far as I know. But also keep in mind that the exit options are different for criminal and civil. I would say that a lot of the exit options discussed are premised on criminal experience, and as I mentioned above, I think it's much less common for civil AUSAs to go into elected office than criminal ones (to the extent the latter is even an option at all, and it's very dependent on what the individual does, not just a natural consequence of being an AUSA. Most AUSAs won't end up elected to anything and there are probably a lot more direct ways to go for elected office).

[appind]

yeah i get that one may not think of AUSA as a stepping stone gig. I mainly mentioned ADA only as a way to getting to AUSA position. my interests are mainly in civil position. I was wondering when people say admin law it can refer to anything that is related to government administration of diverse types of laws, such as either criminal laws, civil right laws, or ip law etc, but it's still taught as only a single course in the LS, so it's not like one can specialize in admin law to make them more attractive for civil positions, true?

i also recently found that doj also has a civil division with a commercial litigation branch with a couple hundred attorneys. this commercial lit branch includes IP law section. The civil div also has an antitrust div that has a section that handles technology cases. any idea how hard these are to obtain and if prior work ex in science and tech world would help obtain them?

[A. Nony Mouse]

I was wondering when people say admin law it can refer to anything that is related to government administration of diverse types of laws, such as either criminal laws, civil right laws, or ip law etc, but it's still taught as only a single course in the LS, so it's not like one can specialize in admin law to make them more attractive for civil positions, true?

I may be misunderstanding you, but admin is more specialized than this in the US. It's not the government administering different kinds of laws, it's the law that governs government agencies (EPA, HUD, SSA, VA, etc etc etc.) - what powers they have, how they create rules to carry out their mission, their relationship with other agencies/other government entities/the public. It's sort of a weird hybrid of con law and civil procedure. It doesn't have anything to do with criminal law or IP law (unless it's a science/tech agency, I guess) or really civil rights law, except to the extent that civil rights law draws on similar constitutional roots as parts of admin (like due process is important to both). Some of admin is relevant to civil government positions, in that if you're representing the government as an employer you may be interacting with the SSA or the EEOC, and if an employee wants to sue the government it generally goes through an admin process first, rather than the employee being able just to head to the nearest federal court. That is, some civil litigation is going to take place in the admin framework, rather than just in federal court. But it's not really something to specialize in if you want to do civil litigation generally.

Also, an ADA position can be a stepping stone to AUSA, but to a criminal position, not a civil one. It is possible to switch from criminal to civil once you're in, but it's not super common and you'd be better off getting really good civil litigation experience and getting hired directly into a civil AUSA position. Being an ADA won't prepare you for a civil AUSA position at all.

[appind]

thanks for the info. I was wondering if there are government positions for JDs which involve working on public-private partnerships (PPPs) or trisector partnerships? I see them as ones where prior experience could help me differentiate from large pool of applicants.

[BlendedUnicorn]

Probably whatever agencies are involved in that work have lawyers that do some stuff on it for them. But I wouldn't count on it being a big boost or really any boost- maybe a decent hook for an interview but that's about it.

[BlendedUnicorn]

e. Actually it's not really a public private partnership but I've heard that working for quasi-public agencies like Amtrak or FINRA can be pretty sweet gigs. They probably won't care about previous experience though.

[Kinch08]

Thread is relevant to my interests. How hard is it to get an AUSA position if you gun for it at HYS and are willing to go anywhere in the US? People are saying that grades don't matter all that much, which is cool, but if experience is what matters then what kind of experience outside of biglaw associate hell gives someone a good shot at an AUSA position? Clerkships were mentioned--does this mean super competitive clerkships exclusively? My understanding is that those require top grades and amazing networking skills to pull off.

I'm a terrible networker who doesn't want to work biglaw even for a couple of years. Career-wise, I'm thinking either AUSA->something else in government (I'm considering a bunch of different options, ranging from the realistic to the foolishly aspirational) or going straight into the DOJ or some other big fed agency.

Side note--how competitive is the Honors program, and what kind of qualifications do they look for? I've done some research, but not a ton.

[cavalier1138]

Thread is relevant to my interests. How hard is it to get an AUSA position if you gun for it at HYS and are willing to go anywhere in the US? People are saying that grades don't matter all that much, which is cool, but if experience is what matters then what kind of experience outside of biglaw associate hell gives someone a good shot at an AUSA position? Clerkships were mentioned--does this mean super competitive clerkships exclusively? My understanding is that those require top grades and amazing networking skills to pull off.

I'm a terrible networker who doesn't want to work biglaw even for a couple of years. Career-wise, I'm thinking either AUSA->something else in government (I'm considering a bunch of different options, ranging from the realistic to the foolishly aspirational) or going straight into the DOJ or some other big fed agency.

Side note--how competitive is the Honors program, and what kind of qualifications do they look for? I've done some research, but not a ton.

Who is saying that grades don't matter that much?

That may be true at some smaller offices, but AUSAs generally care quite a bit about grades, even if it's only tangentially (i.e. they want to see ex-clerks, and you need grades to clerk, etc.).

The fact is that most AUSA offices (perhaps all, but I can't speak for a lot of smaller states) do not hire right out of school. There are a very limited number of honors program slots, but those generally go to clerks. I'd argue that you have a better shot at getting DOJ honors than you do getting an AUSA spot right out of school. But I'm sure it depends.

But it sounds like you're mainly interested in the more competitive areas of government work, so your grades will absolutely matter. I also am skeptical that you're actually interested in smaller AUSA offices, because those tend to not offer you the same exit opportunities that you'd like. A new AUSA in Nebraska (for example) is much more likely to still be at that office in 10 years than an AUSA at SD/EDNY. I'm in your boat, so I really do feel for you. So sorry to say it, but you should probably plan to grin and bear it for a few years of biglaw.

[Kinch08]

Who is saying that grades don't matter that much?

That may be true at some smaller offices, but AUSAs generally care quite a bit about grades, even if it's only tangentially (i.e. they want to see ex-clerks, and you need grades to clerk, etc.).

The fact is that most AUSA offices (perhaps all, but I can't speak for a lot of smaller states) do not hire right out of school. There are a very limited number of honors program slots, but those generally go to clerks. I'd argue that you have a better shot at getting DOJ honors than you do getting an AUSA spot right out of school. But I'm sure it depends.

But it sounds like you're mainly interested in the more competitive areas of government work, so your grades will absolutely matter. I also am skeptical that you're actually interested in smaller AUSA offices, because those tend to not offer you the same exit opportunities that you'd like. A new AUSA in Nebraska (for example) is much more likely to still be at that office in 10 years than an AUSA at SD/EDNY. I'm in your boat, so I really do feel for you. So sorry to say it, but you should probably plan to grin and bear it for a few years of biglaw.

Thanks for the response, I really appreciate it.

Someone earlier in the thread said that grades didn't matter "as much" as they did for biglaw; I was going off of that. I do plan to do as well as I possibly can, grade-wise, but I'm trying to get an idea of what my options are if "as well as I possibly can" is somewhere around median at HYS.

I'm pretty set on never living in NYC as long as I live, so that's one restriction on my career path. I suppose I could reconcile myself to the idea of working biglaw litigation in a slightly smaller market for a couple of years, but I'd much rather clerk if that's anything like an equally good/remotely attainable option.

I'm actually not incredibly ambitious, at the moment, although I'm also not super into the idea of working for no money in the middle of nowhere forever. The main idea is interesting law, somewhat respectable career path, non-insane work-life balance. Just by way of example, I once vaguely knew someone who went from being an AUSA in a mediumish district to being a fairly young district judge in the state he'd been working in. That seemed pretty cool. But he hadn't gone to a T6 law school, which is likely to be my one big advantage and one that I don't want to squander chasing an ADA position or some other job that doesn't reward academic pedigree.

[BlendedUnicorn]

Who is saying that grades don't matter that much?

That may be true at some smaller offices, but AUSAs generally care quite a bit about grades, even if it's only tangentially (i.e. they want to see ex-clerks, and you need grades to clerk, etc.).

The fact is that most AUSA offices (perhaps all, but I can't speak for a lot of smaller states) do not hire right out of school. There are a very limited number of honors program slots, but those generally go to clerks. I'd argue that you have a better shot at getting DOJ honors than you do getting an AUSA spot right out of school. But I'm sure it depends.

But it sounds like you're mainly interested in the more competitive areas of government work, so your grades will absolutely matter. I also am skeptical that you're actually interested in smaller AUSA offices, because those tend to not offer you the same exit opportunities that you'd like. A new AUSA in Nebraska (for example) is much more likely to still be at that office in 10 years than an AUSA at SD/EDNY. I'm in your boat, so I really do feel for you. So sorry to say it, but you should probably plan to grin and bear it for a few years of biglaw.

Thanks for the response, I really appreciate it.

Someone earlier in the thread said that grades didn't matter "as much" as they did for biglaw; I was going off of that. I do plan to do as well as I possibly can, grade-wise, but I'm trying to get an idea of what my options are if "as well as I possibly can" is somewhere around median at HYS.

I'm pretty set on never living in NYC as long as I live, so that's one restriction on my career path. I suppose I could reconcile myself to the idea of working biglaw litigation in a slightly smaller market for a couple of years, but I'd much rather clerk if that's anything like an equally good/remotely attainable option.

I'm actually not incredibly ambitious, at the moment, although I'm also not super into the idea of working for no money in the middle of nowhere forever. The main idea is interesting law, somewhat respectable career path, non-insane work-life balance. Just by way of example, I once vaguely knew someone who went from being an AUSA in a mediumish district to being a fairly young district judge in the state he'd been working in. That seemed pretty cool. But he hadn't gone to a T6 law school, which is likely to be my one big advantage and one that I don't want to squander chasing an ADA position or some other job that doesn't reward academic pedigree.

Should have clarified. I was talking about ADA jobs, not about AUSA jobs when I said that. AUSA and especially AUSA in desireable locations is about as competitive as it gets.

E. Also, this is a weird way of thinking about things. Do what you want, not what you perceive to be the most prestigious thing.

[A. Nony Mouse]

There are quite few people who go AUSA --> judge (although a lot will start as a magistrate; I think it's easier to get district court judge from being a magistrate or having been a USA, at least on the government side - don't know what it requires coming from private practice), but it's an extremely unpredictable path dependent on making good political connections. If you're a terrible networker this isn't a likely path. (It's also something that happens much later down the road - I think you'll find most of the young judges still have ~15 years of practice.)

[appind]

e. Actually it's not really a public private partnership but I've heard that working for quasi-public agencies like Amtrak or FINRA can be pretty sweet gigs. They probably won't care about previous experience though.

i assume PPP related work will be more transactional in nature, true?
any other places where one could get PPP work?

(it seems positions in DOJ antitrust division that deals with antitrust law enforcement for difference industry sectors or working as a staff attorney for an elected rep could involve PPP work.)

[appind]

I may be misunderstanding you, but admin is more specialized than this in the US. It's not the government administering different kinds of laws, it's the law that governs government agencies (EPA, HUD, SSA, VA, etc etc etc.) - what powers they have, how they create rules to carry out their mission, their relationship with other agencies/other government entities/the public. It's sort of a weird hybrid of con law and civil procedure.

With respect to the kind of law one is interested in studying, can administrative law be considered one's field of interest if someone is interested in a government or public interest position after LS? or can admin law and its relation to PPPs or how admin law is practised in a government agency that deals with commercial litigation/business matters be a suitable field of interest? Usually i have heard people say they are interested in specific subject area like business law, civil rights law, health law, environmental law (as opposed to something related to the source that administers the law itself, the government).

Coursework for some schools shows only one single class named admin law in the curriculum. wondering what kind of courses or research work one can do to specialize in admin law/PPPs?

[BlendedUnicorn]

Don't worry about specializing during law school. You're thinking about it all wrong but I'm not sure how to explain why. Just chill.

[cavalier1138]

Don't worry about specializing during law school. You're thinking about it all wrong but I'm not sure how to explain why. Just chill.

This.

I can take a crack at explaining it. OP, you keep asking about these broad fields of law without really looking at the specific practice areas that are reasonably open to attorneys. Talk with an IP attorney. Ask them what career paths are open to people who want to pursue patent work. Don't just vaguely assume that patent prosecution is going to be the same as any other prosecution job, and don't just consider the ethereal "prestige" of jobs after law school. It sounds like you have a specific area of interest. Learn more about it.

And above all, stop worrying about what courses are offered in school. No one will ever care what courses you took.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I may be misunderstanding you, but admin is more specialized than this in the US. It's not the government administering different kinds of laws, it's the law that governs government agencies (EPA, HUD, SSA, VA, etc etc etc.) - what powers they have, how they create rules to carry out their mission, their relationship with other agencies/other government entities/the public. It's sort of a weird hybrid of con law and civil procedure.

With respect to the kind of law one is interested in studying, can administrative law be considered one's field of interest if someone is interested in a government or public interest position after LS? or can admin law and its relation to PPPs or how admin law is practised in a government agency that deals with commercial litigation/business matters be a suitable field of interest? Usually i have heard people say they are interested in specific subject area like business law, civil rights law, health law, environmental law (as opposed to something related to the source that administers the law itself, the government).

Coursework for some schools shows only one single class named admin law in the curriculum. wondering what kind of courses or research work one can do to specialize in admin law/PPPs?

What do you actually want to do? It sounds a little like you've decided that admin should be what people who want to work for the government should specialize in, but I don't think that's the case. Admin provides a framework for understanding how government agencies work, but I would say most people who work for the government actually do practice a specific subject area - environmental law, commercial litigation, healthcare, tax, antitrust, labor and employment, etc. They just may do so within the administrative framework as well as in regular courts. Because generally the government is simply acting as a party within the standard areas of law. (Another way to think of it - admin is like civil procedure; both are frameworks you have to understand to practice in particular areas, but you don't actually practice civil procedure.)

I don't really know anything about PPPs, but from a quick Google, I'm going to guess that they're still situated in specific agencies and addressing particular substantive missions. Really I don't know how you'd get involved in those without starting out working for a particular agency that focuses on a specific area (like health care or transportation or whatever that specific PPP is intended to deliver).

(I also agree that you don't have to worry about specializing; the JD is a general degree. It doesn't require any kind of specialization and it's very very rare that you'd be shut out of any given job because you didn't take the right classes. I took almost no classes in the field I now practice in. I'll also add that you don't have to figure out a connection between your previous work and what you do as a lawyer. If you have something specific you want to pursue that's a natural fit, that's fine, but you can also just start over and do whatever and that's totally fine.)

[appind]

interested in PPPs (in civil rights, social change, tech law) or work that involves prosecuting businesses (against discrimination or not due process in firings, among other things) as an AUSA if one may get to do such work in that position.

(i get that admin is just a framework and perhaps one can't be specializing in admin law per se)

[cavalier1138]

...or work that involves prosecuting businesses (against discrimination or not due process in firings, among other things) as an AUSA if one may get to do such work in that position.

None of the things you listed in the parenthetical are criminal prosecutions. Civil division AUSAs handle cases in that field, but you would be defending the government against claims more often than you would be bringing the claims against specific government offices.

It sounds like you'd be much more interested working in private civil litigation or the EEOC.

Edit: Again, I can't stress this enough. You need to talk to attorneys in the fields you're interested in. It seems like you've heard about what the really "prestigious" post-law-school job tracks are, but I don't think you're at all interested in the type of work done in those offices.

[appind]

i get that these are not crim prosecutions as i'm not much interested in crim law

[cavalier1138]

i get that these are not crim prosecutions as i'm not much interested in crim law

There is no such thing as a civil prosecution. But again, the things you listed are matters that are brought by (usually private) plaintiffs in civil suits. I really, really, really thing you need to do some homework on this, because you keep talking about this field using the wrong terminology.

[A. Nony Mouse]

It does sound a little like you're trying to shoehorn the kind of work you want to do into a position that you think you should want; I don't think a civil AUSA is going to do any of the kind of work you're talking about. To the extent you can do that stuff in a government position, it would be somewhere in main justice like the civil rights division, or the EEOC, or the Department of Labor.

[appind]

i'm not saying that they are civil prosecution. i'm only referring to civil division of AUSA like i did in one of my previous posts. i thought that there may be some employment related matters against businesses that may be handled by US attorney e.g. there was one recent suit against fox news for employer harassment which is a private business by fed in SDNY. usually such matters would be handled by private lawyers hired by individuals who sue, but i am not sure how the fox news case was being prosecuted by aus attorneys in SDNY.

[cavalier1138]

i'm not saying that they are civil prosecution. i'm only referring to civil division of AUSA like i did in one of my previous posts. i thought that there may be some employment related matters against businesses that may be handled by US attorney e.g. there was one recent suit against fox news for employer harassment which is a private business by fed in SDNY. usually such matters would be handled by private lawyers hired by individuals who sue, but i am not sure how the fox news case was being prosecuted by aus attorneys in SDNY.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The civil division doesn't handle employee claims of harassment at a private employer, so there are no AUSAs involved in any current/pending civil suits against Fox News.

If Fox News did something that got the attention of the criminal division, then they would be prosecuted for something like antitrust or securities fraud. But employee harassment, discrimination, etc. suits are not handled by an AUSA on the plaintiff's side. You're thinking of a regular, run-of-the-mill plaintiff's attorney who specializes in employment law.

If employment discrimination is really your thing, then the EEOC or Department of Labor (as Nony mentioned) would probably be your best bets for federal offices handling that sort of work.